TOM CREAN FIRED

[TrueHoosier62 1,592]

The key point to your post being, "after the 76 season". Winning a national championship, and nearly winning two, will buy a coach time with the fan base. Wins alone, do not.

[biteoftheapple 4,115]

Knight had a horrible season after '76 (16-11 and no postseason), I guess we are all lucky he wasn't fired for his inconsistency. :yes:

It was also the Magic years at MSU.

[JSHoosier 19,833]

Knight had a horrible season after '76 (16-11 and no postseason), I guess we are all lucky he wasn't fired for his inconsistency. :yes:

Not a good comparison.  He had just led us to a national title, and undefeated at that.  National titles give coaches a little bit more leash than Sweet 16s.

[Bittersince87 209]

Knight had a horrible season after '76 (16-11 and no postseason), I guess we are all lucky he wasn't fired for his inconsistency. :yes:

awful comparison .

[MadAboutIndiana 402]

You know why it's an awful comparison? Because college basketball in Indiana's heyday is absolutely nothing like college basketball since the 90s.

[Striper 192]

awful comparison .

Beg to differ.  Not spot on, but I think a lot of people remember the "good ol days" as being a little too good.  And no one will ever measure up to the standard some have set in their mind.  In a different time dynasties were more the norm (see UCLA basketball, Alabama football), in the current vastly different world of "parity" two sweet sixteens and two Big Ten championships aint so bad.  IU hasn't always had the consistent greatness that some like to imagine, and coming from where we were in the early 2000's, 3 out 4 four of the last years would be "IU acceptable" historically, I will take that.  My point was simply that RMK was victim to many of the same gripes people have against Crean, he could be inconsistent (particularly following his championship years), he overworked players to where the played significantly weaker later in the season (particularly in the 1990's), and he was often inflexible in his system (again, lacking ability to adapt after 1991-92); but Knight had the buffer of a national championship.

[TrueHoosier62 1,592]

Beg to differ.  Not spot on, but I think a lot of people remember the "good ol days" as being a little too good.  And no one will ever measure up to the standard some have set in their mind.  In a different time dynasties were more the norm (see UCLA basketball, Alabama football), in the current vastly different world of "parity" two sweet sixteens and two Big Ten championships aint so bad.  IU hasn't always had the consistent greatness that some like to imagine, and coming from where we were in the early 2000's, 3 out 4 four of the last years would be "IU acceptable" historically, I will take that.  My point was simply that RMK was victim to many of the same gripes people have against Crean, he could be inconsistent (particularly following his championship years), he overworked players to where the played significantly weaker later in the season (particularly in the 1990's), and he was often inflexible in his system (again, lacking ability to adapt after 1991-92); but Knight had the buffer of a national championship.

Correction, Bob Knight had the buffer of THREE national championships, 11 Big Ten Championships, an extraordinarily high graduation rate, and not even a hint of scandal from the NCAA. That's not our imagination or something we achieved by looking back through rose colored glasses. Those are facts. People who win championships don't have to be flexible. 

[Striper 192]

Correction, Bob Knight had the buffer of THREE national championships, 11 Big Ten Championships, an extraordinarily high graduation rate, and not even a hint of scandal from the NCAA. That's not our imagination or something we achieved by looking back through rose colored glasses. Those are facts. People who win championships don't have to be flexible. 

Correction.  In the 76-77 season I originally mentioned he had A championship.  I give you the two additional ones by the 1990's slide.  And coaches that stay relevant do adjust (see Coach K, Smith, Williams, even Calipari).

[TrueHoosier62 1,592]

Correction.  In the 76-77 season I originally mentioned he had A championship.  I give you the two additional ones by the 1990's slide.  And coaches that stay relevant do adjust (see Coach K, Smith, Williams, even Calipari).

And I can say with relative certainty that if Bob Knight could field a team that carried out his style of ball, without any changes and in today's tournament, he'd mop up another trophy.

[RBB89 3,497]

And I can say with relative certainty that if Bob Knight could field a team that carried out his style of ball, without any changes and in today's tournament, he'd mop up another trophy.

Come on. Things have changed. A lot. And that's hardly a swipe at Knight as a coach. But he would need to adjust. For one, he would actually have to recruit instead of fish.

[MadAboutIndiana 402]

And I can say with relative certainty that if Bob Knight could field a team that carried out his style of ball, without any changes and in today's tournament, he'd mop up another trophy.

[TrueHoosier62 1,592]

Come on. Things have changed. A lot. And that's hardly a swipe at Knight as a coach. But he would need to adjust. For one, he would actually have to recruit instead of fish.

My assertion was not based on whether Bob Knight fished at the expense of recruiting. It was based on the truths of his brand of basketball versus today's. Not saying he could find kids to employ it, only that "if" he could, he could run the table against anything I've seen this year. 

[jmsgws 2,181]

Knight had a horrible season after '76 (16-11 and no postseason), I guess we are all lucky he wasn't fired for his inconsistency. :yes:

He sure did,  but look at the 4 seasons before that dumpster fire.  72-73  B1G Champion  Final Four, 73-74  B1G Champion, 74-75 B1G Champion and 1 loss on the season, 75-76:  B1G Champion, National Champion, Undefeated season.

I think those 4 years garner an awful lot of leeway.

Also please remember I did not say to Fire Crean now, but bringing up your comparison to Coach Knight:  After his dumpsterfire  season he went 21-8, 22-12 (NIT Champ), 21 - 8 (B1G Champ), 26-9 (B1G Champ, National Champ).

If Coach Crean has 4 years like that, I'll be one leading the bandwagon for another 15 year contract!  :) 

 

[Striper 192]

He sure did,  but look at the 4 seasons before that dumpster fire.  72-73  B1G Champion  Final Four, 73-74  B1G Champion, 74-75 B1G Champion and 1 loss on the season, 75-76:  B1G Champion, National Champion, Undefeated season.

I think those 4 years garner an awful lot of leeway.

Also please remember I did not say to Fire Crean now, but bringing up your comparison to Coach Knight:  After his dumpsterfire  season he went 21-8, 22-12 (NIT Champ), 21 - 8 (B1G Champ), 26-9 (B1G Champ, National Champ).

If Coach Crean has 4 years like that, I'll be one leading the bandwagon for another 15 year contract!  :) 

 

Fair point, and I wasn't meaning to insinuate that you were calling for Crean's immediate firing, but referencing what others have said.  You bring up a great point.  After Knight's dumpster fire of a season, he went 21-8 (Sweet Sixteen) and 22-12 (NIT champions).  Since our most recent dumpsterfire, Crean has gone 20-14 (NCAA second round) and 25-6 (outright Big Ten champions, tournament results to be determined), and people are still calling for his head.  Granted, as I said before, Knight had the most historic season ever in 75-76, but can you imagine if Crean went 21-8 next season, or 22-12 with an NIT championship?  The internet would collapse with calls for his head.

[MadAboutIndiana 402]

My assertion was not based on whether Bob Knight fished at the expense of recruiting. It was based on the truths of his brand of basketball versus today's. Not saying he could find kids to employ it, only that "if" he could, he could run the table against anything I've seen this year.

Yeah He definitely couldn't find kids to employ His brand or He would have won something, anything after 1993.

[JSHoosier 19,833]

Come on. Things have changed. A lot. And that's hardly a swipe at Knight as a coach. But he would need to adjust. For one, he would actually have to recruit instead of fish.

Like when he started taking a bigger role in recruiting again and largely assembled the 2002 team?

[RBB89 3,497]

Like when he started taking a bigger role in recruiting again and largely assembled the 2002 team?

Well, yeah. He was putting together a heck of a team. But the game has changed a lot since 2002, and even since he walked away at Tech. Suggesting that he might not steamroll everyone in today's game and go undefeated is not a slight to him.

[JSHoosier 19,833]

Well, yeah. He was putting together a heck of a team. But the game has changed a lot since 2002, and even since he walked away at Tech. Suggesting that he might not steamroll everyone in today's game and go undefeated is not a slight to him.

Yeah, to say he'd steamroll everyone and go undefeated is a leap.  I don't think that has anything to do with style though because there's a reason it hasn't happened since 1976, it's incredibly difficult.  It's not like team's can't be successful playing a similar style though.

[GnarlyTimGarl 1,433]

Here are a few thoughts on consistency in the modern era:

 

-Most people don't believe we're in the same category as Duke, UNC, Kansas and Kentucky any longer. While I personally believe that we could attain that level of status again, I acknowledge that setting our expectations to similar levels at this point may be a bit farfetched.

 

-HOWEVER, I think most would agree that IU fits in that next level of 5-10 schools in the realm of historical success, tradition and the ability to have future success.

 

-Below is a brief snapshot of six next-level programs from 2006-2015 (the modern era, AKA the one-and-done era) that I believe should be a model of consistency and measuring stick for IU Basketball nowadays, i.e. reasonable expectations.

 

UConn: 244-104 (average record of 24-10)

2 National Championships

1 Final Four

1 Elite 8

2 Round of 64's

Made NCAA Tournament 6/10 years (ineligible in 2013)

 

Syracuse: 263-92 (average record of 26-9)

1 Final Four

1 Elite 8

2 Sweet 16's

2 Round of 32's

1 Round of 64

Made NCAA Tournament 7/10 years (ineligible in 2015)

 

Ohio State: 279-82 (average record 28-8)

1 National Runner-Up

1 Final Four

1 Elite 8

2 Sweet 16's

2 Round of 32's

2 Round of 64's

Made NCAA Tournament 9/10 years (NIT Champs in 2008)

 

Arizona: 243-11 (average record 24-11)

3 Elite 8's

2 Sweet 16's

1 Round of 32

2 Round of 64's

Made NCAA Tournament 8/10 years

 

Louisville: 271-99 (average record 27-10)

1 National Championship

1 Final Four

3 Elite 8's

1 Sweet 16

1 Round of 32

2 Round of 64's

Made NCAA Tournament 9/10 years

 

Michigan State: 262-101 (average record 26-10)

1 National Runner-Up

2 Final Fours

1 Elite 8

3 Sweet 16's

1 Round of 32

2 Round of 64's

Made NCAA Tournament 10/10 years

 

In my opinion, these are reasonable expectations for IU over any given 10 year span.

[Striper 192]

Here are a few thoughts on consistency in the modern era:

 

-Most people don't believe we're in the same category as Duke, UNC, Kansas and Kentucky any longer. While I personally believe that we could attain that level of status again, I acknowledge that setting our expectations to similar levels at this point may be a bit farfetched.

 

-HOWEVER, I think most would agree that IU fits in that next level of 5-10 schools in the realm of historical success, tradition and the ability to have future success.

 

-Below is a brief snapshot of six next-level programs from 2006-2015 (the modern era, AKA the one-and-done era) that I believe should be a model of consistency and measuring stick for IU Basketball nowadays, i.e. reasonable expectations.

 

UConn: 244-104 (average record of 24-10)

2 National Championships

1 Final Four

1 Elite 8

2 Round of 64's

Made NCAA Tournament 6/10 years (ineligible in 2013)

 

Syracuse: 263-92 (average record of 26-9)

1 Final Four

1 Elite 8

2 Sweet 16's

2 Round of 32's

1 Round of 64

Made NCAA Tournament 7/10 years (ineligible in 2015)

 

Ohio State: 279-82 (average record 28-8)

1 National Runner-Up

1 Final Four

1 Elite 8

2 Sweet 16's

2 Round of 32's

2 Round of 64's

Made NCAA Tournament 9/10 years (NIT Champs in 2008)

 

Arizona: 243-11 (average record 24-11)

3 Elite 8's

2 Sweet 16's

1 Round of 32

2 Round of 64's

Made NCAA Tournament 8/10 years

 

Louisville: 271-99 (average record 27-10)

1 National Championship

1 Final Four

3 Elite 8's

1 Sweet 16

1 Round of 32

2 Round of 64's

Made NCAA Tournament 9/10 years

 

Michigan State: 262-101 (average record 26-10)

1 National Runner-Up

2 Final Fours

1 Elite 8

3 Sweet 16's

1 Round of 32

2 Round of 64's

Made NCAA Tournament 10/10 years

 

In my opinion, these are reasonable expectations for IU over any given 10 year span.

And 4 out of those six programs are likely not dancing this year.  I also think with a small sample size (excluding the post Sampson mess seasons) we compare relatively favorable to Arizona.  We lack the Elite 8s, but (knock on wood) also lack the Round of 64 losses.  4 out of 5 years in the dance.  Looks fairly similar for a 5 year period.