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IUfan_Charlie

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I love history. I love learning new things historically that I either didn't know or didn't know why it happened.


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As do I.  If women knew some of the history of Valentine's day they might not find it so romantic.

 

I hated history in school, but now there's a lot that I like learning about

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It wasn't the birth of Jesus JS.  That was the day designated by the Romans during Constantine in the early 4th Century before the first council of Nicea.  He was the first ruler who elevated the Christian religion.  He himself was not a full on Christian despite what is general knowledge.  He built Constantinople out of Byzantium so the Christians could build their Basilica's due to a vision he seen the night before battle that gained him the empire.  If he fought with the cross, he would be victorious.  Many assumed he was completely Christian.  He wasn't a true Christian until his death bed when he was baptized.  I have an excellent book on the History of the Popes.  As most of us know they weren't the greatest people before 1200 AD, and in some cases up until Martin Luther in the mid 1500s.  I am with you on the secretive nature intrigue.  That is what got me hooked in the first place. 

 

I agree with Dalton and Hova as well.  I love learning things that shaped the culture we have.  I also enjoy learning the parallels of our culture against those of fallen Empires.  Sometimes it is concerning to see the path we are on.  Sometimes you just sit back and realize that all Empires are built to be destroyed by another.  Typically when that happens, society improves in some way.  With Hova, Columbus was essentially a pirate in the traditional sense.  The only reason he wasn't viewed in that light was due to the country he worked for which was the world leader at the time in the Naval area, and he was funded by the Queen.  They didn't like him, but it was essentially to get him out of their hair.  When he "found" Mexico, and they ransacked it, they essentially started the clock on their demise.  That is the only reason England was able to become the power they were.  When Spain tried invading England when Queen Elizabeth turned down the proposal of King Charles, and the "Protestant" winds were with the English, that sealed the American's future fate.  I think the chain of events that started with Vespucci (which is recognized through Columbus) is more important than the act itself of Columbus crossing the sea.  Man, I love me some History. 

It's really amazing how much of the history is overlooked.  

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[quote name="JSHoosier" post="35687" timestamp="1391709933"]As do I. If women knew some of the history of Valentine's day they might not find it so romantic. I hated history in school, but now there's a lot that I like learning about[/quote] I liked it in school but it's not on the same level as it is post-school. I've learned 10x as much since I've been out of school. Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners mobile app

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I liked it in school but it's not on the same level as it is post-school. I've learned 10x as much since I've been out of school. Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners mobile app

 

Completely agreed.  I was not interested in it during High School.  All it was then is dates and events.  I started watching the History Channel when I came home completely tore up (yeah I was young) and I started watching their documentaries and stuff like Brad Meltzer's Decoded.  I enjoyed it so much more.  Then I took some courses in college and it was so different.  You got the back story of things leading to the events.  It almost seemed that was more important to know than the events themselves, because you already knew the main events.  I am the type of person who enjoys the intricate details of things.  Seriously though, if I was quizzed on US History I would do ok, but I am so much better with Euro History.  Sad to say, but so many more interesting events in Europe and Asia.  

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It's really amazing how much of the history is overlooked.  

I learned a quote in my first History class that sticks with me today.  History is written by the victors.  You really learn that when you dig deeper.  I highly recommend one book for American History that helped peak my interest.  It is one of the top selling History books of all time.  It is Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States".  It will blow your mind.  

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[quote name="mdn82" post="35746" timestamp="1391737251"]I learned a quote in my first History class that sticks with me today. History is written by the victors. You really learn that when you dig deeper. I highly recommend one book for American History that helped peak my interest. It is one of the top selling History books of all time. It is Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States". It will blow your mind. [/quote]

That quote is normally true, except in the case of Vietnam haha. I'm a US history fan, specifically war history. And it wasn't really clear to me what actually happened there until I started doing some digging myself. Other than WWII, (stick me in a room with WWII memoirs and documentaries and I'd never, ever leave) Vietnam is the war that I'm most fascinated with because of how wrongly the American outlets portray it. So many things happened that you just don't learn about in school (for whatever reason). The Vietnam and World War II in HD series from History Channel were some of the best weeks of my life haha. And you definitely don't get the full Nam story in that, but it was still great.


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[quote name="mdn82" post="35745" timestamp="1391737112"]Completely agreed. I was not interested in it during High School. All it was then is dates and events. I started watching the History Channel when I came home completely tore up (yeah I was young) and I started watching their documentaries and stuff like Brad Meltzer's Decoded. I enjoyed it so much more. Then I took some courses in college and it was so different. You got the back story of things leading to the events. It almost seemed that was more important to know than the events themselves, because you already knew the main events. I am the type of person who enjoys the intricate details of things. Seriously though, if I was quizzed on US History I would do ok, but I am so much better with Euro History. Sad to say, but so many more interesting events in Europe and Asia. [/quote]

I'm the opposite. I love all history but I'm better with US history. Haha


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[quote name="Hovadipo" post="35621" timestamp="1391657721"]On Columbus, another thing we weren't taught in school is how he and his men came through those islands and ransacked everything they saw. They spread disease like wildfire and ruined entire villages. What a hero, right?! The entire country closes down for a day for a guy who A) didn't find "America" and B ) was more or less a pirate looking to get rich in present day southern Asia. Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners[/quote]

Teachers at my high school make sure to point out he didn't "discover" America and he treated the natives terribly.

Disease was unavoidable, but he, as well as others, did some pretty awful things to natives.


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[quote name="All_Hoosiers" post="35756" timestamp="1391739596"]Teachers at my high school make sure to point out he didn't "discover" America and he treated the natives terribly.

Disease was unavoidable, but he, as well as others, did some pretty awful things to natives.


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That's awesome. We were always taught about how much of a Saint he was. Could've just been lazy teaching and going by the book, but I'm glad that not everyone is taught that. Another funny thing about him; his crew thought he was a complete idiot, and from what I've read, he was within days of mutiny when they finally spotted land. The crew was fully prepared to just kill him and go on their own.


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[quote name="Hovadipo" post="35759" timestamp="1391740414"]That's awesome. We were always taught about how much of a Saint he was. Could've just been lazy teaching and going by the book, but I'm glad that not everyone is taught that. Another funny thing about him; his crew thought he was a complete idiot, and from what I've read, he was within days of mutiny when they finally spotted land. The crew was fully prepared to just kill him and go on their own.


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Yeah, Columbus has never been painted as a saint in my years learning about him. We've always been told he got lucky finding land when he did too. That whole experiment was really close to being a disaster for him. It ended up being a disaster for the natives.


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That quote is normally true, except in the case of Vietnam haha. I'm a US history fan, specifically war history. And it wasn't really clear to me what actually happened there until I started doing some digging myself. Other than WWII, (stick me in a room with WWII memoirs and documentaries and I'd never, ever leave) Vietnam is the war that I'm most fascinated with because of how wrongly the American outlets portray it. So many things happened that you just don't learn about in school (for whatever reason). The Vietnam and World War II in HD series from History Channel were some of the best weeks of my life haha. And you definitely don't get the full Nam story in that, but it was still great.


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With Vietnam it was the first true "televised" war.  It was unpopular from the get-go.  Since it was unpopular, they had to lie.  I understand why they did, but they did in a manner that would obviously come out and piss people off more.  When the History Channel did their WWII in HD, I got that DVD.  I am a junkie for war stuff too.  I like reading about WWI mainly due to my interest in Politics of the time, Nationalization leading up to, Industrial War (First War where going over the top guaranteed death and nobody made the realization), and the outcome of the war directly led to the 2nd one.  Also, as I said earlier I am a huge Palace of Versailles nut.  Lol, this is one of the reasons.  

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Teachers at my high school make sure to point out he didn't "discover" America and he treated the natives terribly.

Disease was unavoidable, but he, as well as others, did some pretty awful things to natives.


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That is good, because it is true.  Disease I think was avoidable at the time.  You had a boat full of people bringing European disease to Mexico.  Their bodies had never seen these diseases so they ravaged the Mexicans.  He really didn't discover anything like you said.  Amerigo Vespucci found the Amazon, and Columbus followed his path.  Unfortunately or fortunately for him the currents were different and he ended North of Vespucci.  Glad your teachers tell the real story.  That has drove me nuts since the first time I truly learned about that era.  

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[quote name="mdn82" post="35767" timestamp="1391744909"]With Vietnam it was the first true "televised" war. It was unpopular from the get-go. Since it was unpopular, they had to lie. I understand why they did, but they did in a manner that would obviously come out and piss people off more. When the History Channel did their WWII in HD, I got that DVD. I am a junkie for war stuff too. I like reading about WWI mainly due to my interest in Politics of the time, Nationalization leading up to, Industrial War (First War where going over the top guaranteed death and nobody made the realization), and the outcome of the war directly led to the 2nd one. Also, as I said earlier I am a huge Palace of Versailles nut. Lol, this is one of the reasons. [/quote]

With Vietnam, I was saying more present day they still don't really teach you what actually happened in most cases, but they absolutely had to lie while it was going on. I assume that time period was an absolute mess. On WWII, I love reading memoirs. My favorite is actually a series written by a Veteran named Donald Burgett. He was in Europe and participated in The Battle of the Bulge and capturing Hitler's Eagle's Nest. Very easy to read and very descriptive stories. I'm more fascinated by the Pacific Theatre, though. Mainly for the brutality and how it was fought. A couple good reads have come from that, too. Can't remember the title off of the top of my head, but the author was Louis Zamperinni (sp?). He was an Olympic distance runner that ran in the Berlin Olympics then enlisted, went to Japan, his plane was shot down, and he lived through a Japanese POW Camp. Gives me goosebumps just thinking about that book. Then there is With the Old Breed by E.B. Sledge. He was a Marine that fought in some of the craziest places in the Pacific. It's one of the most popular, so I wouldn't be surprised if you've read that one. The vivid detail he portrays is horrifying yet unbelievable at the same time. Jeesh I could go on for hours about this stuff. I'll cut myself off.


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That quote is normally true, except in the case of Vietnam haha. I'm a US history fan, specifically war history. And it wasn't really clear to me what actually happened there until I started doing some digging myself. Other than WWII, (stick me in a room with WWII memoirs and documentaries and I'd never, ever leave) Vietnam is the war that I'm most fascinated with because of how wrongly the American outlets portray it. So many things happened that you just don't learn about in school (for whatever reason). The Vietnam and World War II in HD series from History Channel were some of the best weeks of my life haha. And you definitely don't get the full Nam story in that, but it was still great.


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My father was a Vietnam veteran, served 3 tours of duty in his active duty military career.  It was something he would not talk about, he was asked to come speak to my class when we covered that war and he declined.

 

That is good, because it is true.  Disease I think was avoidable at the time.  You had a boat full of people bringing European disease to Mexico.  Their bodies had never seen these diseases so they ravaged the Mexicans.  He really didn't discover anything like you said.  Amerigo Vespucci found the Amazon, and Columbus followed his path.  Unfortunately or fortunately for him the currents were different and he ended North of Vespucci.  Glad your teachers tell the real story.  That has drove me nuts since the first time I truly learned about that era.  

Yeah, my school didn't tell the real story either.  Just the whole "Columbus discovered America, blah blah blah" story.  When I first heard the real story, my first thought was "why in the hell weren't we taught this?" followed quickly by "no wonder so many call us dumb Americans".

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I'm getting to be that way.  Although some of what we're taught in schools isn't even true.  We're taught Columbus discovered America, but the Norse were here before he was and there is evidence that the Knights Templar may have been here 100 years before he set sail.

 

Speaking of the Knights Templar, they developed a banking system similar to the one we use today.  They also funded the crusades because the king was broke, then the king made up charges against them.  The day they were to be captured?  Friday the 13th, which is where we get it from.  That's a group that has fascinated me and I always try to watch any program on History I can about them.  May get some books.

Oh, you guys had to go all History on me. One of my favorite things too. And several of my favorite themes to read on are pre-Columbian voyages to America and the Templars/Freemasons. Although I will read a wide variety of books, and my current one is about the Boxer Rebellion.

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It wasn't the birth of Jesus JS.  That was the day designated by the Romans during Constantine in the early 4th Century before the first council of Nicea.  He was the first ruler who elevated the Christian religion.  He himself was not a full on Christian despite what is general knowledge.  He built Constantinople out of Byzantium so the Christians could build their Basilica's due to a vision he seen the night before battle that gained him the empire.  If he fought with the cross, he would be victorious.  Many assumed he was completely Christian.  He wasn't a true Christian until his death bed when he was baptized.  I have an excellent book on the History of the Popes.  As most of us know they weren't the greatest people before 1200 AD, and in some cases up until Martin Luther in the mid 1500s.  I am with you on the secretive nature intrigue.  That is what got me hooked in the first place. 

 

 

Yes. Christian holidays were often established on top of pagan holidays to make the transition from paganism to Christianity easier. There is no real data to establish the birth of Jesus, but scholars tend to lean towards spring or early summer based on what little data is available. The placement of Christmas in late December is probably a approximation of the celebration of the winter solstice. Much the same as the timing of the celebration of Easter is based on a pagan holiday and/or the Jewish Passover. Even looking at some of the symbolism of these holidays is probably related to pre-Christian beliefs and observances. Easter eggs and Easter bunnies are fertility symbols that almost certainly pre-date Christianity.

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On Columbus, another thing we weren't taught in school is how he and his men came through those islands and ransacked everything they saw. They spread disease like wildfire and ruined entire villages. What a hero, right?! The entire country closes down for a day for a guy who A) didn't find "America" and B ) was more or less a pirate looking to get rich in present day southern Asia. Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners

I think very few of those who sailed to the Americas for the first century or two should be looked on as "heroes". Most of them were here for no other reason than personal gain. Even those who came for missionary reasons, were very often harsh ideologues who wanted to convert the natives by force. The best reason to celebrate Columbus would be for his daring. The biggest problem I have with the anti-hero Columbus, as I often see it represented, is the glamorization of the "noble savage" theory. The atrocities that early European explorers committed against the Amerinds, was reciprocated in kind, and pre-dated Columbus. That's not a argument to excuse those actions, I just don't believe the viewpoint that it was one-sided. 

 

As far as Columbus not discovering America, that may be true in even bigger ways than presented in previous posts. There are theories that Columbus was aware of the presence of a landmass to the west of Europe. This is not unlikely, as archaeologists have shown the presence of Norsemen in the northern US, Canada and Greenland. This was not lost in ancient history at that time, as Norse settlements in Greenland were probably not completely destroyed/abandoned until sometime in the 14th century. IIRC, the Roman Catholic Church still had a bishop in Greeenland until the late 13th century. Evidence of any particular group is very rare, but there is enough archaeological evidence in the Americas, to suggest that there were many voyages to the Americas were made prior to Columbus. Theories of pre-Columbian exploration, which are often backed by scant evidence, suggest that the Chinese, Japanese, Malians, Phoenicians, Irish, Welsh, Templars, and others, all had a limited presence in the Americas prior to Columbus. Some of these theories are backed more in myth than substance, and there are too many "scholars" promoting one theory or another (and sometimes all of them), that its hard to take a objective look at them and make any claim as too truth. However, there is a body of isolated evidence that would suggest that there were a number of groups that had at least limited contact with the Americas before Columbus, probably dating back into the pre-Christian era. I find it entirely reasonable to at least accept the possibility that Columbus was proceeding on some knowledge handed down from earlier explorers. If all of that is true, then the only distinct accolade Columbus is due is that his voyage rekindled, confirmed and publicized the existence of lands to the west. 

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Very nice HoosierReb.  Yeah, Constantine wasn't full Christian until his death bed.  He still believed in praying to things like the Sun.  As you said the Winter Solstice is key.  Constantine believed fully in "natalis solis invicti".  That means birth of the unconquered son.  They equated Jesus with the Sun, who they all prayed to.  December 25 was a key day in Roman times for that reason and it was the birthday of Mithras.  That is why he ultimately settled on it.  If he picks the date closer to his death I will say it would be January 6th.

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I'm the opposite. I love all history but I'm better with US history. Haha


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I guess I find that to understand American history, I have to study a wide ranging variety of history. Therefore, I have never specialized. I have a few favorite subjects, but keep it pretty broad for the most part. 

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