The Rotation

[JSHoosier 19,743]

Very true I guess. Just was probing for people's thoughts on using Vonleh on the perimeter against the 2-3 the way that Wisconsin uses Kaminski.  Works very well for them because of his size and shooting ability, the bigs have to come out to guard him instead of packing in.  He just shoots right over the top of everyone else.  That's why I wanted to try HMP at the same time.  You are very right though the more I think about it.  I can see them both picking up fouls, and then what?  I guess I'm just scared to death of us playing a zone heavy team.  It's a huge problem in my opinion, bigger than any lineup conversation.  We look lost against it.

I don't think it'll matter.  Our attack against a zone is usually slow ball reversals around the perimeter and letting the defense get re-set before making the next pass.  The best thing to do when we face a zone heavy team is to hide your head out of embarrassment or try to laugh that our half court offense actually can get worse, which is bad considering our half court offense sucks against man defense.

[cappymo14 2,276]

I don't think it'll matter.  Our attack against a zone is usually slow ball reversals around the perimeter and letting the defense get re-set before making the next pass.  The best thing to do when we face a zone heavy team is to hide your head out of embarrassment or try to laugh that our half court offense actually can get worse, which is bad considering our half court offense sucks against man defense.

  Ha! What about our strategy of standing 35 feet away, ball on the hip, staring intensely inside the paint?  All that lazy passing and walking from spot to spot is so confusing.  Better to just stare at it.

[ElectricBoogaloo 4,307]

This brings up another point, maybe for a separate thread. Our half court offense against man to man defenses (ie Wisconsin and Michigan) is actually quite productive. Why can't we run a competent offense against the zone?

[JSHoosier 19,743]

This brings up another point, maybe for a separate thread. Our half court offense against man to man defenses (ie Wisconsin and Michigan) is actually quite productive. Why can't we run a competent offense against the zone?

We beat Michigan because Yogi was shooting out of his mind.  He had 27, the rest of the team combined for 36.  If he shoots his usual percentage we lose (yes, I've done the math).  It really wasn't that productive.

[Hovadipo 54,697]

Off topic, but a quick question and I'm just putting it on the hottest thread. I just saw a Vine that was titled "Yogi's Little Brother" and was made at a Columbus East game. Does he actually have a little brother? Never heard of him if so.


Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners

[BlueDevil 8,655]

[quote name="Hovadipo" post="35177" timestamp="1391488941"]Off topic, but a quick question and I'm just putting it on the hottest thread. I just saw a Vine that was titled "Yogi's Little Brother" and was made at a Columbus East game. Does he actually have a little brother? Never heard of him if so.


Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners[/quote]

Ya his name is Caleb I believe he plays for Bloomington north

[Hovadipo 54,697]

[quote name="BlueDevil2aHoosier" post="35179" timestamp="1391489158"]Ya his name is Caleb I believe he plays for Bloomington north[/quote]

Ah, thanks. The vine I saw was a pretty nice putback dunk. Do you know how old he is/is he a D1 guy?


Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners

[BlueDevil 8,655]

[quote name="Hovadipo" post="35180" timestamp="1391489233"]Ah, thanks. The vine I saw was a pretty nice putback dunk. Do you know how old he is/is he a D1 guy?


Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners[/quote]

He's a jr I wanna say and I heard he was like 6'4" but not very skilled

[Hovadipo 54,697]

[quote name="BlueDevil2aHoosier" post="35181" timestamp="1391489452"]He's a jr I wanna say and I heard he was like 6'4" but not very skilled[/quote]

I see. Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners

[ElectricBoogaloo 4,307]

We beat Michigan because Yogi was shooting out of his mind.  He had 27, the rest of the team combined for 36.  If he shoots his usual percentage we lose (yes, I've done the math).  It really wasn't that productive.

Yeah, Yogi was a man possessed against UM. Still, the stats bear out our wide gulf in half court offense vs man and vs zone. I think ITH or another blog put together the analysis. I'll try to look it up tomorrow.

[JSHoosier 19,743]

Yeah, Yogi was a man possessed against UM. Still, the stats bear out our wide gulf in half court offense vs man and vs zone. I think ITH or another blog put together the analysis. I'll try to look it up tomorrow.

It's better against man, but our half court offense is far from good even against man.  Our half court offense hasn't been "good" in 6 years, that entire time it's been stagnant and unreliable.

[djsalway 4,161]

It's as simple as this... If we continue to play good defense, we should have a shot at winning every game. Yogi will not shoot lights out like that again. Our half-court offense is a wreck, except for when Stan drives in the gaps or Noah posts up (those don't even work half the time). That being said, I really do think that our defense has been one of the best this year and if that keeps up, our offense won't matter as much.

[cappymo14 2,276]

This brings up another point, maybe for a separate thread. Our half court offense against man to man defenses (ie Wisconsin and Michigan) is actually quite productive. Why can't we run a competent offense against the zone?

I have been trying for a week, to get a real conversation started on our struggles against the 2-3 specifically.  I have baited, goaded, pleaded and tried everything I can think of.  I honestly thought I was the only one.  I know we are all very upset over substitution issues, but that problem is tiny, TINY! compared to the fact that IU has zero knowledge on how to beat a zone.  JS HOOSIER and I were somewhat joking about how we (attack) the 2-3 earlier in this post.  Except that it wasn't a joke!  That is our actual strategy it would seem.  I'm telling you right now, if Minn. comes out 2-3 (and they definitely will) we will lose.  If my son's H.S. team comes to Assembly Hall and plays 2-3, we will lose....it's that bad in my opinion.  I wish to start a debate on this matter, however, I would like to hear what your ideas are on fixing the problems instead of just replacing the coaches/players.  Example:  I have suggested a few times to use Vonleh and HMP at the same time.  I feel that with Vonleh on the perimeter, just the threat that he can make the three will bring the zone out high.  He would have to be guarded by another big.  This, (again) is how Wisconsin uses Frank Kaminski and it works extremely well.  

[ElectricBoogaloo 4,307]

I have been trying for a week, to get a real conversation started on our struggles against the 2-3 specifically.  I have baited, goaded, pleaded and tried everything I can think of.  I honestly thought I was the only one.  I know we are all very upset over substitution issues, but that problem is tiny, TINY! compared to the fact that IU has zero knowledge on how to beat a zone.  JS HOOSIER and I were somewhat joking about how we (attack) the 2-3 earlier in this post.  Except that it wasn't a joke!  That is our actual strategy it would seem.  I'm telling you right now, if Minn. comes out 2-3 (and they definitely will) we will lose.  If my son's H.S. team comes to Assembly Hall and plays 2-3, we will lose....it's that bad in my opinion.  I wish to start a debate on this matter, however, I would like to hear what your ideas are on fixing the problems instead of just replacing the coaches/players.  Example:  I have suggested a few times to use Vonleh and HMP at the same time.  I feel that with Vonleh on the perimeter, just the threat that he can make the three will bring the zone out high.  He would have to be guarded by another big.  This, (again) is how Wisconsin uses Frank Kaminski and it works extremely well.  

 

 

I couldn't tell you specifically what we are doing wrong since I'm not a bball coach. Here are some ofmy thoughts, and anyone can take them with a grain of salt:

 

-Sheehey is always making cuts along the baseline against man defense but I don't see it as much against zone even though getting in behind the zone is a great way to attack. Sheehey is the only guy who seems to make these kind of cuts period. More guys should be active cutting to the baseline or through the lane.

 

-The dribble-handoffs that we always see don't do anything against a zone. No D1 zone is fooled by that, and they maintain integrity. Instead of dribbling around the perimeter we should be making quick passes around the perimeter, to the post, to someone at the FT line, etc. Get the zone defense rotating around and make it easier for guys to cut through it or find some space. The down side is that we don't have many good passers and we like to turn the ball over.

 

-Dribble penetration done right. Dribble penetration against a zone is great but only to the extent that the zone collapses to help and you find the open man. Dribbling too far into 3 defenders and expecting the refs to bail you out is not a good strategy (Stan, Yogi, Troy, Jeremy). 

 

-Outside shooting. We just aren't great at it besides Yogi. The 2-3 is untenable if there are three shooting threats spread out on the perimeter. We don't have that threat.

 

-Offensive rebounding. Zone defense is notorious for lack of boxing out but for some reason we don't hit the glass at a higher rate against the zone. This is my big qualm about bringing Vonleh out to the perimeter. We will have a lot of missed shots and need him inside to grab rebounds. I don't think a big would come out to guard him. He's comfortable shooting open threes but if any perimeter defender is in front of him he won't pull the trigger (from what I've seen).

[JSHoosier 19,743]

I couldn't tell you specifically what we are doing wrong since I'm not a bball coach. Here are some ofmy thoughts, and anyone can take them with a grain of salt:

 

-Sheehey is always making cuts along the baseline against man defense but I don't see it as much against zone even though getting in behind the zone is a great way to attack. Sheehey is the only guy who seems to make these kind of cuts period. More guys should be active cutting to the baseline or through the lane.

 

-The dribble-handoffs that we always see don't do anything against a zone. No D1 zone is fooled by that, and they maintain integrity. Instead of dribbling around the perimeter we should be making quick passes around the perimeter, to the post, to someone at the FT line, etc. Get the zone defense rotating around and make it easier for guys to cut through it or find some space. The down side is that we don't have many good passers and we like to turn the ball over.

On these two points

 

I agree with the first, however our offense typically involves four players standing around watching Yogi try to go one on one.  Unless it's a ball screen, then it's 3 players standing around watching the screener/ball handler.  6 years in it's the same way, it's just the way Crean's offense is.  It doesn't utilize movement, it focuses on one on one street ball and makes it unreliable.

 

On the second, you can feed the high post against a 2-3.  The low post is usually too well guarded and leads to turnovers if you try to feed it down there.  The 2-3 is designed to take away the inside.  You can get it to a man around the free throw line and have a player try to duck underneath and seal off on the low post, or you can have a player follow the ball from short corner to short corner and try to get it to him from the wing.  Just passing it to the low post isn't a good strategy though.

[cappymo14 2,276]

I couldn't tell you specifically what we are doing wrong since I'm not a bball coach. Here are some ofmy thoughts, and anyone can take them with a grain of salt:

 

-Sheehey is always making cuts along the baseline against man defense but I don't see it as much against zone even though getting in behind the zone is a great way to attack. Sheehey is the only guy who seems to make these kind of cuts period. More guys should be active cutting to the baseline or through the lane.

 

-The dribble-handoffs that we always see don't do anything against a zone. No D1 zone is fooled by that, and they maintain integrity. Instead of dribbling around the perimeter we should be making quick passes around the perimeter, to the post, to someone at the FT line, etc. Get the zone defense rotating around and make it easier for guys to cut through it or find some space. The down side is that we don't have many good passers and we like to turn the ball over

 

-Outside shooting. We just aren't great at it besides Yogi. The 2-3 is untenable if there are three shooting threats spread out on the perimeter. We don't have that threat.

 

-Offensive rebounding. Zone defense is notorious for lack of boxing out but for some reason we don't hit the glass at a higher rate against the zone. This is my big qualm about bringing Vonleh out to the perimeter. We will have a lot of missed shots and need him inside to grab rebounds. I don't think a big would come out to guard him. He's comfortable shooting open threes but if any perimeter defender is in front of him he won't pull the trigger (from what I've seen).

 

 

On these two points

 

I agree with the first, however our offense typically involves four players standing around watching Yogi try to go one on one.  Unless it's a ball screen, then it's 3 players standing around watching the screener/ball handler.  6 years in it's the same way, it's just the way Crean's offense is.  It doesn't utilize movement, it focuses on one on one street ball and makes it unreliable.

 

On the second, you can feed the high post against a 2-3.  The low post is usually too well guarded and leads to turnovers if you try to feed it down there.  The 2-3 is designed to take away the inside.  You can get it to a man around the free throw line and have a player try to duck underneath and seal off on the low post, or you can have a player follow the ball from short corner to short corner and try to get it to him from the wing.  Just passing it to the low post isn't a good strategy though.

Thank you for your excellent insights, both of you.  I concur.  I do feel like there must be more of a effort to feed the high post as you have said.  That pass appears to consistently be there and we don't utilize it.  Also the standing around the perimeter, staring at Yogi, kills me too.  We do move and reverse the ball but, so slowly.  Needs to be quicker and more decisive.  No one should hold on to it for more than a second when swinging.  I think that we do have some kids who can hit the 3 but, no one but Yogi will pull the trigger or, they can't because the defense recovers due to how slow we move it.  Also I really like the idea of Sheehey running the baseline in an attempt to get behind the defense...Have not seen them doing this all.  It is my opinion that we are going to see the 2-3 almost exclusively from here on out so I hope they are working on it.

[JaybobHoosier 11,839]

Yogi, Stan, Etherington, Sheehey, and Vonleh. Gordon, Hollowell, and Williams get bulk of bench minutes. Perea and Davis get spot minutes. <br /><br />Sent from my DROID4 using BtownBanners mobile app<br /><br />

[ElectricBoogaloo 4,307]

On these two points
 
I agree with the first, however our offense typically involves four players standing around watching Yogi try to go one on one.  Unless it's a ball screen, then it's 3 players standing around watching the screener/ball handler.  6 years in it's the same way, it's just the way Crean's offense is.  It doesn't utilize movement, it focuses on one on one street ball and makes it unreliable.
 
On the second, you can feed the high post against a 2-3.  The low post is usually too well guarded and leads to turnovers if you try to feed it down there.  The 2-3 is designed to take away the inside.  You can get it to a man around the free throw line and have a player try to duck underneath and seal off on the low post, or you can have a player follow the ball from short corner to short corner and try to get it to him from the wing.  Just passing it to the low post isn't a good strategy though.

You are officially hired as my assistant coach.

[Oladipo 130]

[quote name="ElectricBoogaloo" post="34949" timestamp="1391407958"]I agree that Howard has been good at playing defense and taking care of the ball, definitely better than Hollowell, Perea and Davis.

There is no reason Johnny Marlin should ever see the court. He adds nothing on offense, has given up a couple turnovers, and can't play defense.[/quote]

Alright, everything you just said is total BS. Hollowell is the third best defender on the team (Noah, Stan), if you have watched Hollowell play defense before, he averages a solid block a game. I know many people think Jeff takes good care of the ball, but it's pretty easy to take good care of the ball when you never get it.

Johnny Marlin should play every game, sparingly, but should play. He does add something on offense when he is not on the floor with ball-hawking Stan (and he normally plays with Stan). He can't play defense? Really. When IU came back against Northwestern Johnny shut down Tre Demps, and we all know that Tre Demos later exploded offensively while Yogi Ferrell was guarding him. BTW, Johnny had a +\- of +9 in the Northwestern game.


Sent from my iPad using BtownBanners

[yogisballin 2,293]

We beat Michigan because Yogi was shooting out of his mind.  He had 27, the rest of the team combined for 36.  If he shoots his usual percentage we lose (yes, I've done the math).  It really wasn't that productive.

I said the same, we don't win that game if he shoots his norm. See tonight at The Barn, i think he was 5 for 16. Even though we should have won this game