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Class of '66 Old Fart

IUBB vs UNC Greensboro - Thursday, 11.21.24 @ 6:30 on FS1 TV

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3 hours ago, Certified Sunshine Pumper said:

I'm as frustrated as anyone watching us play like complete a**.... watching us throw it in the post to Ballou, watching Malik not improve, watching MM only look for his offensively, watching Rice make crap decisions, watching Carlyle be awful offensively, etc etc etc.... but platooning? Didn't happen. Never really has. We played 8 guys last night and the 3 off the bench were on the court when we were playing our best ball. 

 

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5 hours ago, Certified Sunshine Pumper said:

I'm as frustrated as anyone watching us play like complete a**.... watching us throw it in the post to Ballou, watching Malik not improve, watching MM only look for his offensively, watching Rice make crap decisions, watching Carlyle be awful offensively, etc etc etc.... but platooning? Didn't happen. Never really has. We played 8 guys last night and the 3 off the bench were on the court when we were playing our best ball. 

This isn't correct. When IU was up 21-5, Woodson put in Tucker, Galloway, Hatton, Goode, and Carlyle - four subs, plus Carlyle (we played nine guys). Hatton didn't play for long, but was in there when there when IU lost its early momentum. Why play all four subs at one when things are going so well? Why not put in a sub or two early in the half and a couple of subs late in the half so that they always have at least three starters on the court? And if you're only going to have one starter in, is Carlyle the one to keep on the court? 

Edited by DougWil

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8 minutes ago, DougWil said:

This isn't correct. When IU was up 21-5, Woodson put in Tucker, Galloway, Hatton, Goode, and Carlyle - four subs, plus Carlyle (we played nine guys). Hatton didn't play for long, but was in there when there when IU lost its early momentum. Why play all four subs at one when things are going so well? Why not put in a sub or two early in the half and a couple of subs late in the half so that they always have at least three starters on the court? And if you're only going to have one starter in, is Carlyle the one to keep on the court? 

Agree. That seemed to be the turning point. 
 

If you assume Galloway is the “6th starter” I don’t see any reason to ever have less than 3 starters on the floor at a time. One of reneau and Ballo and 2 of rice carlyle mbako and Galloway. 

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21 minutes ago, DougWil said:

This isn't correct. When IU was up 21-5, Woodson put in Tucker, Galloway, Hatton, Goode, and Carlyle - four subs, plus Carlyle (we played nine guys). Hatton didn't play for long, but was in there when there when IU lost its early momentum. Why play all four subs at one when things are going so well? Why not put in a sub or two early in the half and a couple of subs late in the half so that they always have at least three starters on the court? And if you're only going to have one starter in, is Carlyle the one to keep on the court? 

What isn't correct? Hatton played 2 mins lol ... IU didn't "lose momentum" when he was in. I'm sorry, but that just sounds silly to say. Someone playing for 2 mins caused this team to lose momentum? What starters are so good that we need to keep them on the court, outside of Rice? 

When we had 3+ starters on the court for 12 straight mins from the 8-minute mark of 1H to the 16-minute mark of 2H the lead went from 21-7/9 to tied at 40? In the 2nd half our starters were -9 in the first 4 mins of the 2H. Kinda of completely disproves "subbing was an issue", again. You are actually blaming that run on the fact we subbed 10 mins into the game? 

"early momentum" --- I don't believe in that. Good teams, great teams, well-coached, well-conditioned, well-prepared teams don't need "early mo" to win a game by 15+...we aren't that, clearly. 

"IU was up 21-5" we sub, then it's 21-7 when the starters start trickling back in and somehow the subbing is an issue? I just find that crazy. 

Furthermore-- who on earth would have Tucker outside of our Top 5 currently? MM and Carlyle were a combined 3-18 last night and we have an issue with Goode and Galloway playing more? 

 

Such a non-issue compared to our real issues. 

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15 minutes ago, str8baller said:

Agree. That seemed to be the turning point. 
 

If you assume Galloway is the “6th starter” I don’t see any reason to ever have less than 3 starters on the floor at a time. One of reneau and Ballo and 2 of rice carlyle mbako and Galloway. 

So no Tucker!?!?! Who has clearly out-played KC all year, and Galloway for that matter, and Malik for that matter. 

No Goode, even though we clamored all off-season for shooting? 

 

No the turning point is... we don't have the ability to focus for 40 mins, regardless of who's on the court, we don't Def reb, we don't value possessions, and we have no ability to really stretch a lead/blow anyone out because of our style of play. Ballo isn't playing more than 28 mins against UNCG, Malik basically the same.... but yeah, subbing is the issue. 

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I think we have 7 impactful players. Goode would be 8. Right now it looks like we're doing Goode a favor by letting him play. With a chance to blow a team out and give your team a taste of what that looks like, I think you have to do it. That could've been a 50-25 first half. I like Carlyle but he needs the ball in his hands to get going and that's what he did last year...on a bad team. 

I think I would start the 2 bigs with Tucker, Galloway and Rice the next game and bring Mgbako and Carlyle in for Balo and Tucker. Play 7 guys, and see how we look, send a message to Mgbako. I'd like to sprinkle in a little bit of Newton if he's available, if not go with 7. Gonzaga we could do the same thing and just match their sub patterns. We're as talented at each position as they are. 

Now none of this do I see our staff doing. 

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17 minutes ago, Certified Sunshine Pumper said:

9 mins to go in the 1H 

21-7 lead

we had KC, TG, Tucker, Goode, and Ballo on the court..... 

 

This'll help you guys

IU was up 36-20 with 1:10 to go in the first half as well.  Brutal last 1:10 cut the lead to 9 and by the first under 16 timeout of the second half it was basically tied.   That’s a brutal 5 min stretch of basketball for a team.  I need to watch that stretch again but I’m guessing that stretch would be terrible to watch in the film room as a staff and players 

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9 minutes ago, Certified Sunshine Pumper said:

9 mins to go in the 1H 

21-7 lead

we had KC, TG, Tucker, Goode, and Ballo on the court..... 

 

This'll help you guys

That's true but it was 19-5 when Woodson's subbing seemed to break the flow, subbed in Tucker, Gallo, subbed out Carlyle and Ballo. 

 

It was the poorly timed subbing that broke our flow.

Rice had just assisted Bako to take  IU to 17, at that point Bako was playing in rhythm (he earlier hit a shot to take us up 14-3). Rice hit a layup to get us up 19-5. The other guys fouled and Woodson subbed Carlyle and Ballo out. Less than a minute later he subbed out Bako and Malik and put Goode and Hatton in.

That's basically the group subbing that put all those guys in. It was still 19-5, we had been in control of the game. As the play by play reflects things then deteriorated.

Hatton got a 2 to take us to 21-5, but then came misses, turnovers, and fouls, and UNCGB began scoring. By the 7:36 min mark Woodson was subbing Bako and Rice back in, he'd already subbed Ballo back in for Hatton, our rhythm was off and UNCG scored while our guys faltered, by the 5 min mark it was 23-17. By the 4 min mark it was 26-20 etc.

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Just now, Uspshoosier said:

IU was up 36-20 with 1:10 to go in the first half as well.  Brutal last 1:10 cut the lead to 9 and by the first under 16 timeout of the second half it was basically tied.   That’s a brutal 5 min stretch of basketball for a team.  I need to watch that stretch again but I’m guessing that stretch would be terrible to watch in the film room as a staff and players 

on the court the last 1:10-- Malik, Goode, MM , Tucker, and Rice 

on the court the first 4 mins of 2H-- starters 

 

that's when UNCGB off rebounding really started

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3 hours ago, DougWil said:
This isn't correct. When IU was up 21-5, Woodson put in Tucker, Galloway, Hatton, Goode, and Carlyle - four subs, plus Carlyle (we played nine guys). Hatton didn't play for long, but was in there when there when IU lost its early momentum. Why play all four subs at one when things are going so well? Why not put in a sub or two early in the half and a couple of subs late in the half so that they always have at least three starters on the court? And if you're only going to have one starter in, is Carlyle the one to keep on the court? 


Woodson has been in love with the “hockey line change” substitution pattern since he got here. He moved away from that somewhat last year, but looks like it’s back and with the same dreary results.

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Just now, HoosierHoopster said:

That's true but it was 19-5 when Woodson's subbing seemed to break the flow, subbed in Tucker, Gallo, subbed out Carlyle and Ballo. 

 

It was the poorly timed subbing that broke our flow.

Rice had just assisted Bako to take  IU to 17, at that point Bako was playing in rhythm (he earlier hit a shot to take us up 14-3). Rice hit a layup to get us up 19-5. The other guys fouled and Woodson subbed Carlyle and Ballo out. Less than a minute later he subbed out Bako and Malik and put Goode and Hatton in.

That's basically the group subbing that put all those guys in. It was still 19-5, we had been in control of the game. As the play by play reflects things then deteriorated.

Hatton got a 2 to take us to 21-5, but then came misses, turnovers, and fouls, and UNCGB began scoring. By the 7:36 min mark Woodson was subbing Bako and Rice back in, he'd already subbed Ballo back in for Hatton, our rhythm was off and UNCG scored while our guys faltered, by the 5 min mark it was 23-17. By the 4 min mark it was 26-20 etc.

IMO- until you watch the game as a whole... we shouldn't be having our momentum broken/start just completely not caring about the def glass because we subbed some guys in and out, and then the starters come back in (that's when UNCGB made their run vs the starters)....

I don't believe it was a poorly time sub at all, if you can't sub up 21-7 when can you sub? I believe we just poorly executed the majority of the last 30 minutes of the game. 

"Our rhythm was off" How f'ing fickle are we? They sat for 2 mins, we were +0 during that game it went from 19-5 to 21-7. I'm sorry but this is a complete non-issue--- if we were coached well, if we were consistently well-prepared, and lord knows if we played a different style of ball. 

 

7:30 min mark-- 21-9 with Rice, MM, TG, Ballo, and Goode on the court. 

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10 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

That's true but it was 19-5 when Woodson's subbing seemed to break the flow, subbed in Tucker, Gallo, subbed out Carlyle and Ballo. 

 

It was the poorly timed subbing that broke our flow.

While that is true, it is also true that Trey Galloway has been our most buttoned-up guard and that he has been fantastic with the ball in his hands all year, until last night, when he was absolutely horrible.

The beauty of these discussions about who are our best players? It's that any of our top seven/eight can be our best player on any given night. So much better than last year when we had CJ Gunn, Cupps, and Tony buckets as the guards off the bench, and Anthony Walker as the first big off the bench. When Galloway and Tucker come in that's not a hockey line change; that's potentially putting our two most effective  players on the court.

The task at hand is to have a system and culture that maximizes this excellent talent we've amassed and gets them to consistently play with focus.

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4 minutes ago, AZ Hoosier said:


Woodson has been in love with the “hockey line change” substitution pattern since he got here. He moves somewhat away from it last year, but looks like it’s back and with the same dreary results.

Why would anyone have an issue with TG, Goode, or Tucker being on the court? 

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46 minutes ago, Certified Sunshine Pumper said:

Why would anyone have an issue with TG, Goode, or Tucker being on the court? 

It's not "who" but "when/why"... Woodson's favorite method for substitution has been swapping out the majority of the on-floor team at the same time. More times than not it kills whatever momentum the team may have going for it at the time...

Note: I have not yet watched the UNCG game, so my comment is based on Woodson's history vs anything specific to this specific game.

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2 minutes ago, AZ Hoosier said:

It's not "who" but "when/why"... Woodson's favorite method for substitution has been swapping out the majority of the on-floor team at the same time. More times than not it kills whatever momentum the team may have going for it at the time...

Note: I have not yet watched the UNCG game, so my comment is based on Woodson's history vs anything specific to this specific game.

There is a valid school of thought that bench players who play together in practice are best suited to play together in games. Of course, this is only valid if those bench players don't suck, and Gallo, Tucker, and Goode certainly do not suck.

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1 hour ago, Certified Sunshine Pumper said:

IMO- until you watch the game as a whole... we shouldn't be having our momentum broken/start just completely not caring about the def glass because we subbed some guys in and out, and then the starters come back in (that's when UNCGB made their run vs the starters)....

I don't believe it was a poorly time sub at all, if you can't sub up 21-7 when can you sub? I believe we just poorly executed the majority of the last 30 minutes of the game. 

"Our rhythm was off" How f'ing fickle are we? They sat for 2 mins, we were +0 during that game it went from 19-5 to 21-7. I'm sorry but this is a complete non-issue--- if we were coached well, if we were consistently well-prepared, and lord knows if we played a different style of ball. 

 

7:30 min mark-- 21-9 with Rice, MM, TG, Ballo, and Goode on the court. 

You could see how the rhythm was disrupted by what was basically a 4-man sub, that was really obvious if you were watching. It's not that you can't sub when up significantly like that, it's the multiple-player subbing at once / close together that's the problem. My post also was to respond to your point about the score when those guys were on the floor -- that was misleading, as they didn't develop that score. I don't think it's 'f'ing fickle', I think it's just pretty obvious Woodson's subbing is f'd up.

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1 hour ago, Stuhoo said:

While that is true, it is also true that Trey Galloway has been our most buttoned-up guard and that he has been fantastic with the ball in his hands all year, until last night, when he was absolutely horrible.

The beauty of these discussions about who are our best players? It's that any of our top seven/eight can be our best player on any given night. So much better than last year when we had CJ Gunn, Cupps, and Tony buckets as the guards off the bench, and Anthony Walker as the first big off the bench. When Galloway and Tucker come in that's not a hockey line change; that's potentially putting our two most effective  players on the court.

The task at hand is to have a system and culture that maximizes this excellent talent we've amassed and gets them to consistently play with focus.

Stu, as AZ Hoosier says maybe better than I did in my post, it's more the when/why then the who. Just look at what happened. This happens often under Woodson, he throws in a group of players when the players on the floor are playing well, and he often even pulls the "hot hand." I mean we've seen that repeatedly under Woodson, his subbing decisions are often head-scratchers and he keeps making bad sub decisions. I love Gallo. I think Tucker is terrific. But that's not the point.

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2 hours ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Stu, as AZ Hoosier says maybe better than I did in my post, it's more the when/why then the who. Just look at what happened. This happens often under Woodson, he throws in a group of players when the players on the floor are playing well, and he often even pulls the "hot hand." I mean we've seen that repeatedly under Woodson, his subbing decisions are often head-scratchers and he keeps making bad sub decisions. I love Gallo. I think Tucker is terrific. But that's not the point.

He did okay the hot hands in the second hand.  Galloway and Carlyle’s minutes were much more limited, once Tucker entered I’m not sure he came out.  The issue seems to be the 12 minute to 8 minute mark in the first half every game where he pulls at least three starters.  It’s like he scripts first half subs but not the second.  It is obvious that four minute stretch in the first half had been bad for IU.  

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3 hours ago, Certified Sunshine Pumper said:

IMO- until you watch the game as a whole... we shouldn't be having our momentum broken/start just completely not caring about the def glass because we subbed some guys in and out, and then the starters come back in (that's when UNCGB made their run vs the starters)....

I don't believe it was a poorly time sub at all, if you can't sub up 21-7 when can you sub? I believe we just poorly executed the majority of the last 30 minutes of the game.  

Sorry, but this is just wrong.  When you say ‘if you can’t sub ip 21-7, when can you’ it belittles the fact that we are talking about not just subbing but mass subbing — four starters out — and that this is done eight minutes into the game.  We aren’t talking about a 14 point lead with a couple of minutes left in the game and we aren’t talking about one or two guys coming in.  Eight minutes into the game is no time to think there needs to be a line change.  No game has been so in control eight minutes in that it can’t be overcome in the next thirty two minutes.  The five that were on the court in that streak will literally never be the n the court at the same time when a game is in the balance.

if you are going to ‘experiment with a lineup’, the time to do so is when you are down and are searching for a combination that works or you are in the second half of a game where you are so far ahead you literally can’t lose.  The fact that IU gave up the run to start the second half in which UNC G tied the game shouldn’t mean that we should ignore the fact that the decision was made to put a team on the floor for four minutes in the first half that has been proven time and again to be counter productive to the first half.

Now, saying that, I wasn’t as disappointed as most with the game.  11 point wins over 160ish teams happen all the time for top 20 teams.

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