Brad Stevens

[BGleas]

33 minutes ago, IUHoosierJoe said:

I'd have traded Tatum instead. The Celtics would have gotten a lot more for him, because the common opinion is that Tatum is much better. The problem is that the advanced metrics don't support the notion that Tatum is really better. The Celtics played themselves into a 2 seed without Tatum, and the advanced metrics show the Celtics were not good without Brown on the floor.

I think you either trade just Brown or you rebuild completely and trade both. The Achilles gives me pause, but you can build a championship contender around Tatum. He's a #1. Brown isn't. 

I'm not gonna claim to be an advanced metrics expert, but are you only looking at last season? I'm pretty sure the Celtics were deeply negative in the Philly series when Brown was on. 

From everything I've ever read the analytics part of basketball world doesn't think very much of Jaylen Brown. The Celtics are usually positive with Tatum lineups and negative with Brown lineups. 

Again I'm not an expert, but for their careers Tatum is far better in most advanced metrics. 

[HoosierHoopster]

2 hours ago, BGleas said:

I'll say this. Losing Brown sucks in the fact that the return wasn't what you'd hope for and that he was a homegrown star who had played 10 years for the C's and of course has the Finals MVP.  

With that said, I think the Celtics as of now are better next season than they were last season. If healthy, this isn't going to be some major drop-off. 

They may not win 56 games because the East will be a lot better (Sixers, Pacers, Raptors, Heat will all be better), but this is a playoff team still. 

The roster as of now is better than the roster last season. Tatum replacing Brown is an upgrade, and so far we've replaced Vucivic with PG, Mitchell Robinson and Mike Conley. 

The Celtics aren't a champion contender but it's a better roster than what we had entering last season. 

Yeah I was just having fun with the crack at PG — GOAT!

As a former PG fan, was disappointed to watch him leave the clips for $ and then play his way into the ground. 

I’m not as high on Tatum as you are — I think he’s soft but that’s jmo — but agree your C’s needed to move on from the Tatum - Brown led team with the Supermax looming. I’m sure the C’s will be back in contention, well managed and still deep. Wouldn’t be surprised to see a mid-season trade/adjustment 

[BGleas]

14 hours ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Yeah I was just having fun with the crack at PG — GOAT!

As a former PG fan, was disappointed to watch him leave the clips for $ and then play his way into the ground. 

I’m not as high on Tatum as you are — I think he’s soft but that’s jmo — but agree your C’s needed to move on from the Tatum - Brown led team with the Supermax looming. I’m sure the C’s will be back in contention, well managed and still deep. Wouldn’t be surprised to see a mid-season trade/adjustment 

Yeah, it's weird to have PG on my team after all these years. He did surprise me in the playoffs last season vs Boston as he really accepted his role and excelled in it during that series. Optimistic about that. 

Interesting, soft isn't a word I would use with Tatum. It will probably change post-Achilles, but he's always been an anti-load management guy. He's a team-first super-star. 

Scored 46 on the road in Game 6 in 2022 down 3-2 to the defending champ Bucks when Giannis was at his peak. Most points in a Game 7 all-time. Led the Celtics in points, rebounds and assists during their championship run. Played center defensively in that Finals. Super strong rebounder for his position, etc., etc.

I will give you that his efficiency has seemed to drop in the playoffs the last few years and it feels like it drops sometimes even more in crunch time. Definitely acknowledge that. 

In defense of that though, if you really watch the Celtics, defenses completely gameplan to stop Tatum. The Pacers and Mavs in the 2024 run were shading 2-3 guys at Tatum. In the 2022 Finals (admittedly not his best performance) the Warriors said their gameplan was to stop Tatum and they basically left Brown open. 

A lot gets made of Brown winning the Finals MVP, but I'm a firm believer Tatum should have gotten it.

I will admit with Tatum that he has superstar playoff games, but not necessarily superstar playoff moments. 

He'll have that 46 point Game 6 on the road againt Giannis where you win by 12 (not sure what we actually won that game by) or the 51 point Game 7 against Philly where you win by double-digits. He's not as great in the playoff moments down the stretch where it's a possession game and you need your superstar to hit 3-4 shots in a row in the last 2 minutes to win the game. 

[Demo]

7 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Yeah, it's weird to have PG on my team after all these years. He did surprise me in the playoffs last season vs Boston as he really accepted his role and excelled in it during that series. Optimistic about that. 

Interesting, soft isn't a word I would use with Tatum. It will probably change post-Achilles, but he's always been an anti-load management guy. He's a team-first super-star. 

Scored 46 on the road in Game 6 in 2022 down 3-2 to the defending champ Bucks when Giannis was at his peak. Most points in a Game 7 all-time. Led the Celtics in points, rebounds and assists during their championship run. Played center defensively in that Finals. Super strong rebounder for his position, etc., etc.

I will give you that his efficiency has seemed to drop in the playoffs the last few years and it feels like it drops sometimes even more in crunch time. Definitely acknowledge that. 

In defense of that though, if you really watch the Celtics, defenses completely gameplan to stop Tatum. The Pacers and Mavs in the 2024 run were shading 2-3 guys at Tatum. In the 2022 Finals (admittedly not his best performance) the Warriors said their gameplan was to stop Tatum and they basically left Brown open. 

A lot gets made of Brown winning the Finals MVP, but I'm a firm believer Tatum should have gotten it.

Saw Tatum play a bunch in HS. A blind guy sees the talent, but I remember thinking the funk in the release wouldn’t extend comfortably to NBA 3 and he really hated playing through contact to the point where he shied from it a good bit. My thought at the time was he was a no doubt fairly high end NBA guy but there’d be a fair amount of empty calories in his numbers and his actual impact wouldn’t measure up to the stats. Hard to be more wrong than that. Dude is all substance and, man, is he good along with obviously being a good guy and face of a franchise. If you’re gonna pay “tied to him forever” jack to a player, you pay it to a dude just like him. 

[HoosierHoopster]

2 hours ago, BGleas said:

Yeah, it's weird to have PG on my team after all these years. He did surprise me in the playoffs last season vs Boston as he really accepted his role and excelled in it during that series. Optimistic about that. 

Interesting, soft isn't a word I would use with Tatum. It will probably change post-Achilles, but he's always been an anti-load management guy. He's a team-first super-star. 

Scored 46 on the road in Game 6 in 2022 down 3-2 to the defending champ Bucks when Giannis was at his peak. Most points in a Game 7 all-time. Led the Celtics in points, rebounds and assists during their championship run. Played center defensively in that Finals. Super strong rebounder for his position, etc., etc.

I will give you that his efficiency has seemed to drop in the playoffs the last few years and it feels like it drops sometimes even more in crunch time. Definitely acknowledge that. 

In defense of that though, if you really watch the Celtics, defenses completely gameplan to stop Tatum. The Pacers and Mavs in the 2024 run were shading 2-3 guys at Tatum. In the 2022 Finals (admittedly not his best performance) the Warriors said their gameplan was to stop Tatum and they basically left Brown open. 

A lot gets made of Brown winning the Finals MVP, but I'm a firm believer Tatum should have gotten it.

I will admit with Tatum that he has superstar playoff games, but not necessarily superstar playoff moments. 

He'll have that 46 point Game 6 on the road againt Giannis where you win by 12 (not sure what we actually won that game by) or the 51 point Game 7 against Philly where you win by double-digits. He's not as great in the playoff moments down the stretch where it's a possession game and you need your superstar to hit 3-4 shots in a row in the last 2 minutes to win the game. 

Tatam’s an excellent player/scorer, didn’t mean to imply otherwise, it’s just my personal opinion of the way he plays. I don’t see him as a closer or very strong two-way player, those are the guys I respect the most. One of the reasons I’ve been higher on OG than ai recall you being — he has that kind of killer mentality that I love in a player, he’ll score at high numbers if needed and is fully capable of doing so most nights but he plays first to shutting down the other team’s best players, then scores from outside or in as needed.
 

Funny thing is that was how PG started, like Kawhi - defense first, before becoming considered an elite top 10 level shooter/scorer. Remember the early days when he went straight at LeBron? Or Kawhii’s early years progression from supporting Spurs role to Finals MVP? It’s just personal taste, I’d take a Kawhi over a LeBron every day. Not at same level but loved PG’s early years to the point when he was the P’s best player, or his facing down the critics the year he led the Clips deep without Kawhi and was in contention, top 2-3, for League MVP, with that two-way game. Or take a guy like Vic, another pure lock down defender who turned himself into an elite scorer and but for injury would’ve been a consistent all star. So don’t mean to disrespect Tatum or your valuing him as a top level player, for me he doesn’t play the type of game I most respect in a player.