IUWBB vs Lipscomb - Tuesday, 11.04.25 @ 7:00 on B1G+

[Home Jersey 17,304]

1 minute ago, Aaron said:

Don't disagree with a lot of you are saying. However, it does mean a lot more work to get butts in seats at IU compared to most, hence the empty ones seen last night. 

There is nothing in the women's b-ball product last year that should have caused team to lose roughly 3k of its 8k season ticket holders. No where else loses nearly 40% of its season ticket holders from last years products and generally maintains steady or gains.

Yes its still light years ahead of past, but if you bleed at this number or even half of it over 2-3 more 20 win seasons, it is no higher than Pre-Moren. Hopefully the most front running fans were weeded out, but if a similar season to last loses another 1-2k which is possible my point is well proven. Almost any other school with two 20-win seasons with NCAA appearance with an 8k ticket base would hold steady or gain not shrink by nearly half. Here it is considered a failure and bleeds support.

We need a lot more people in this fan base to stop considering these 20-win seasons (or in football's case 8 wins) not enough. You want long sustained success for a program outside soccer? A big part of it is not losing 40% of a fan base over a top-30 NCAA appearance. You will see my point when next years eight-win 'rebuilding' football season wins 8 games and loses 20-40% of season ticket holders which will absolutely happen here and not anywhere else.

Prove me wrong. I hope I am wrong, but every historical perspective here including with Mallory, and now with women's basketball and more recently baseball, makes me very skeptical you won't lose thousands of ticket holders over a solid season which does not happen elsewhere.

IUWBB has historically been terrible and you are right last year wasn't so bad it warranted 40% of season ticket holders not renewing. Don't think it was considered a "failure" as much as "not a compelling enough draw that I'm going to spend time and money going." Again, we are competing with other local sports interests, general entertainment, and more broadly... macroeconomics to a degree. If your household needs to tighten the belt, things like IUWBB season tickets will probably come off the list pretty quick. 

Regardless, I think indexing on WBB is misguided. Football season tix sales were up 50% YoY weren't they? I wonder how many cancelled IUWBB season tix and got football ones. Football is where we're going to make money, so that's where we should be focused. You seem awfully confident that 8 win season is coming in football...lol.

Don't think I can definitively "prove you wrong" that IU fans are more or less fair weather than other B10 schools. But I'd say IUBB has been largely awful for 30 years and has still been leading the conference in attendance. That support was very sticky because of what Knight achieved here. It became part and parcel to the identity of Indiana. The way things are trending, Cig has a chance to do that with football. And that's where our bread will be buttered $$$. Win big there. Change the culture. Grow revenue. Rising tide lifts all boats.

[Aaron 4,667]

2 minutes ago, Home Jersey said:

IUWBB has historically been terrible and you are right last year wasn't so bad it warranted 40% of season ticket holders not renewing. Don't think it was considered a "failure" as much as "not a compelling enough draw that I'm going to spend time and money going." Again, we are competing with other local sports interests, general entertainment, and more broadly... macroeconomics to a degree. If your household needs to tighten the belt, things like IUWBB season tickets will probably come off the list pretty quick. 

Regardless, I think indexing on WBB is misguided. Football season tix sales were up 50% YoY weren't they? I wonder how many cancelled IUWBB season tix and got football ones. Football is where we're going to make money, so that's where we should be focused. You seem awfully confident that 8 win season is coming in football...lol.

Don't think I can definitively "prove you wrong" that IU fans are more or less fair weather than other B10 schools. But I'd say IUBB has been largely awful for 30 years and has still been leading the conference in attendance. That support was very sticky because of what Knight achieved here. It became part and parcel to the identity of Indiana. The way things are trending, Cig has a chance to do that with football. And that's where our bread will be buttered $$$. Win big there. Change the culture. Grow revenue. Rising tide lifts all boats.

Again I agree with most of what you are saying and hope you are right and I am wrong. Proof will be in pudding though and history says otherwise. Really hope football's likely eight win season next yr is a new leaf for our fan base but past precedent says otherwise.

Really hope you turn out right. No one more than me is rooting for that. 

[TTT 1,543]

Specifically IU women basketball attendance is relatively to it’s success.  
It has some and briefly for 2 or 3 or 4 years at a high level.  Real briefly at elite level.  There are several schools in this category….However, a sustained tradition category is still in the process of still trying to be established.  It’s not sustained and established.  So attendance is favorably comparable to other schools in this category.  
 

The continually sold out or near sold out attendance programs are the elites that are elite year after year and has sustained tradition .  Included is Iowa because of C.C.

[Home Jersey 17,304]

Just now, Aaron said:

Again I agree with most of what you are saying and hope you are right and I am wrong. Proof will be in pudding though and history says otherwise. Really hope football's likely eight win season next yr is a new leaf for our fan base but past precedent says otherwise.

Really hope you turn out right. No one more than me is rooting for that. 

I think we can both be correct.

IU, structurally, has a lot of competition for attention from fans. These are factors beyond anyone's control and probably amount to a natural cap on how "loyal" our fanbase is.

People spend money to root for winning teams. IU is investing in football especially, to be a consistent winning team and grow revenue that will support the rest of the AD.

All this means to me is that IU does not have the same luxury as some other schools like Iowa or Nebraska do, where they're the main attraction in town. Winning consistently is more important for IU because that's how you overcome the structural challenges enough to the point that behaviors change in a way that's sticky (like season tickets or apparel sales).

My final thought - 8 win football / 20 win basketball seasons will happen from time to time. Hopefully they're the exception, not the norm. You can endure a down year or two... but no program with routinely mediocre results should expect exceptional fan support. 

[Aaron 4,667]

Just now, TTT said:

Specifically IU women basketball attendance is relatively to it’s success.  
It has some and briefly for 2 or 3 or 4 years at a high level.  Real briefly at elite level.  There are several schools in this category….However, a sustained tradition category is still in the process of still trying to be established.  It’s not sustained and established.  So attendance is favorably comparable to other schools in this category.  
 

The continually sold out or near sold out attendance programs are the elites that are elite year after year and has sustained tradition .  Included is Iowa because of C.C.

A five year run of being ranked each and every week is pretty 'elite' and matched only 1-2 others. Iowa has sold out season tickets post Caitlin Clark each of the last two seasons and their recent run is similar to IU.

A 20-13 season does not warrant losing 40% of season ticket holders and would not anywhere else. Attendance absolutely is tied to winning but definition of 'winning' needs to be upped by our lot of fans if we want constant success in any program. Losing nearly 40% of season ticket holders in IU women tells me our fans view of what constitutes 'winning' is not consistent with elsewhere.

[Aaron 4,667]

1 minute ago, Home Jersey said:

I think we can both be correct.

IU, structurally, has a lot of competition for attention from fans. These are factors beyond anyone's control and probably amount to a natural cap on how "loyal" our fanbase is.

People spend money to root for winning teams. IU is investing in football especially, to be a consistent winning team and grow revenue that will support the rest of the AD.

All this means to me is that IU does not have the same luxury as some other schools like Iowa or Nebraska do, where they're the main attraction in town. Winning consistently is more important for IU because that's how you overcome the structural challenges enough to the point that behaviors change in a way that's sticky (like season tickets or apparel sales).

My final thought - 8 win football / 20 win basketball seasons will happen from time to time. Hopefully they're the exception, not the norm. You can endure a down year or two... but no program with routinely mediocre results should expect exceptional fan support. 

Totally agree with all of that. However, no program like women's basketball should have to endure losing nearly 40% of its season ticket holders over a 20-13 team with an NCAA appearance. That doesn't happen at most if any other places after five straight years of being ranked each week and then one solid top-30 season not ranked.

This is where the problem comes in and is not an issue at most schools. Michigan women had a worse season than usual last year and equivalent rise of IU before that and lost almost no season ticket holders. Meanwhile, Iowa has sold out its next two non-Caitlin Clark seasons recently that saw similar results to IU last year.

I get IU is competing with more sports here, but it shows our fans priority for our fan base in general.

[TTT 1,543]

2 minutes ago, Aaron said:

A five year run of being ranked each and every week is pretty 'elite' and matched only 1-2 others. Iowa has sold out season tickets post Caitlin Clark each of the last two seasons and their recent run is similar to IU.

A 20-13 season does not warrant losing 40% of season ticket holders and would not anywhere else. Attendance absolutely is tied to winning but definition of 'winning' needs to be upped by our lot of fans if we want constant success in any program. Losing nearly 40% of season ticket holders in IU women tells me our fans view of what constitutes 'winning' is not consistent with elsewhere.

Depends on how you define sustainability and traditionally elite.  There have been several programs not just one or two others.  

Not exactly at the same time but recent years IU Ladies success is comparable to other programs and sometimes even better in attendance and season ticket holders regarding Ladies basketball.

[Pagoda 6,354]

I like this topic and don't know the answer to why exactly our fans behave how they do: loyal to MBB, pretty fickle everywhere else.

My guess is most fanbases are pretty similar with small differences here and there -- they're all large sample sizes of Americans.  And people are very programmable based on their experiences.

Most people who went to IU had amazing experiences in AH.  It's loud, it's unique, it's got those cushy chairs, it's got our traditions, and we usually win a few big games there.  I think this sticks with people for a long time, often for life.  Conversely, most of us had grim experiences in Memorial Stadium -- cold, empty, quiet, losing.  

Now it's changed -- people are having a great time at Memorial and not so much as AH. Another few years of being consistently ranked and FB is going to have a pretty solid following.  It reminds me of when Peyton got to the Colts and they went from nothing in Indy to the biggest team in town (or at least equal to the Pacers) in about five years.  It helps that football is just a massive sport.

Now, why are fans so fickle towards WBB?  Not enough formative experiences or sustained success?  Is there a base crowd in Bloomington and has the Indy crowd shifted towards the Fever?  I really can't put my finger on why we had a 25% drop in opener attendance vs. last year.  If I were in the AD I'd do a fan survey and figure out why some people have lost interest.

Anyways, like I said, interesting topic.

[Aaron 4,667]

6 minutes ago, TTT said:

Depends on how you define sustainability and traditionally elite.  There have been several programs not just one or two others.  

Not exactly at the same time but recent years IU Ladies success is comparable to other programs and sometimes even better in attendance and season ticket holders regarding Ladies basketball.

Exactly when we were ranked and times were the most sunny attendance grew and grew. Now one 20-13 season loses 40% of season ticket holders. Iowa with similar success recently has sold out last two seasons even without Caitlin Clark. Michigan whose path has mirrored IU each season recently including last, lost no season ticket holders last year and Michigan's sports options are no different than Indiana's.  

This proves my point that our fan base even in equivalent spots in equivalent sports has always had more frontrunners.

[TTT 1,543]

Sidenote:  I am hardly ever interested in any professional football or basketball.  
However, others live in that area.  Not sure what impact that may have for example on some of the college athletic programs attendance especially without winning on a high/elite level.  Colts, Pacers, Fever and in this case IU football and basketball programs if they don’t win at a very high level though football always had attendance issues because they were often a losing program.

[Aaron 4,667]

1 minute ago, Pagoda said:

I like this topic and don't know the answer to why exactly our fans behave how they do: loyal to MBB, pretty fickle everywhere else.

My guess is most fanbases are pretty similar with small differences here and there -- they're all large sample sizes of Americans.  And people are very programmable based on their experiences.

Most people who went to IU had amazing experiences in AH.  It's loud, it's unique, it's got those cushy chairs, it's got our traditions, and we usually win a few big games there.  I think this sticks with people for a long time, often for life.  Conversely, most of us had grim experiences in Memorial Stadium -- cold, empty, quiet, losing.  

Now it's changed -- people are having a great time at Memorial and not so much as AH. Another few years of being consistently ranked and FB is going to have a pretty solid following.  It reminds me of when Peyton got to the Colts and they went from nothing in Indy to the biggest team in town (or at least equal to the Pacers) in about five years.  It helps that football is just a massive sport.

Now, why are fans so fickle towards WBB?  Not enough formative experiences or sustained success?  Is there a base crowd in Bloomington and has the Indy crowd shifted towards the Fever?  I really can't put my finger on why we had a 25% drop in opener attendance vs. last year.  If I were in the AD I'd do a fan survey and figure out why some people have lost interest.

 

This survey is important since no other school wins 20 games and loses mass numbers of season ticket holders. There is clearly something unique about our fan base being more front running than others. Our athletic department needs to get to bottom of it if it does not want to lose a large percentage of season ticket holders after good but not great seasons when nowhere else does.

[Aaron 4,667]

2 minutes ago, TTT said:

Sidenote:  I am hardly ever interested in any professional football or basketball.  
However, others live in that area.  Not sure what impact that may have for example on some of the college athletic programs attendance especially without winning on a high/elite level.  Colts, Pacers, Fever and in this case IU football and basketball programs if they don’t win at a very high level though football always had attendance issues because they were often a losing program.

Michigan has all the buffet of sports options as Indiana and lost no season ticket holders for its women's basketball program after one good season that was slightly less than others. Its a conundrum that the athletic department has to figure out. Nowhere else loses 30-40% of ticket holders over a women's season like last.

[TTT 1,543]

4 minutes ago, Aaron said:

Exactly when we were ranked and times were the most sunny attendance grew and grew. Now one 20-13 season loses 40% of season ticket holders. Iowa with similar success recently has sold out last two seasons even without Caitlin Clark. Michigan whose path has mirrored IU each season recently including last, lost no season ticket holders last year and Michigan's sports options are no different than Indiana's.  

This proves my point that our fan base even in equivalent spots in equivalent sports has always had more frontrunners.

That’s a couple examples.  Need bigger sample size.  However, overall Iowa just was a unique tradition with two final fours, and tons of C.C. and program publicity.  Clark was getting full gyms everywhere.

Example:  Ohio State with McGuff had approximately 7, 800 fans in attendance at there season opener.  They had success over the years been ranked, won big etc.  little different time line 

[Claxdj01 78]

I had season tickets last year for the first time, and chose not to renew them. I live fairly far away so the midweek games are a stretch. Last year my tickets were 40 rows up. Many seats below were empty. Half the time I went I bought low seats for 10-15$ rather than sit in the rafters. I’ll go to games this year and just buy great seats for low prices 

[TTT 1,543]

Yes, IU football success means basketball can wait.

[Aaron 4,667]

5 minutes ago, Claxdj01 said:

I had season tickets last year for the first time, and chose not to renew them. I live fairly far away so the midweek games are a stretch. Last year my tickets were 40 rows up. Many seats below were empty. Half the time I went I bought low seats for 10-15$ rather than sit in the rafters. I’ll go to games this year and just buy great seats for low prices 

That could be a reason and legitimate. However, would you have dropped if team was ranked and won nearly 30 games. If you were going to drop anyways you may have hit on a factor.

If being less then excellent caused you not to renew and would have otherwise, that is something you are certainly entitled to do but that behavior (better or worse) sheds some light on how fan base thinks.

Don't blame you for your specific case. We would need to hear from others and cross reference with other schools to find the smoking gun for this pattern but your particular case def sheds a tiny bit of light.

[Aaron 4,667]

11 minutes ago, TTT said:

That’s a couple examples.  Need bigger sample size.  However, overall Iowa just was a unique tradition with two final fours, and tons of C.C. and program publicity.  Clark was getting full gyms everywhere.

Example:  Ohio State with McGuff had approximately 7, 800 fans in attendance at there season opener.  They had success over the years been ranked, won big etc.  little different time line 

Michigan is most relevant and equivalent example in Big Ten right now. 

[TTT 1,543]

For some reason when T. Moren became IU coach I seen a product I liked and T. Buss and A. Cahill and program growth.  Eventually, I was season ticket holder once 2 sets. Even when IU Ladies were at their best I attended games whenever I wanted;  Sunday afternoons, early evenings or mid evening game vs Oklahoma. 50 miles away.  I never used all tickets.

 I liked parking and open seating based on when you arrived vs the year it went to reserved seats etc.  I like simple.Lol.

[Claxdj01 78]

From what I understand over the last couple years they have changed the reserved seating policy and such. For 2023/2024 season tickets rows 25 and below were reserved tickets, anything above was general admission first come first serve. They changed that to the entire main level being reserved and I know on Facebook a lot of past season ticket holders being moved up substantially from their past seasons seats, as some people began to buy up the reserve season ticket seats to improve their priority points for men’s games and football tickets.