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20/29 with 282 yards and 3 TD's on a day his team ran for > 260 yards, too. Yeah....what a struggle. He sucks. It's laughable how incredibly biased and non objective you are about Ramsey. Is that a man crush or ignorance?

The argument has never been we couldn't have a winning season. The argument has been Indiana has a ceiling of 8 wins; 9 if things fall perfectly because even with the occasional anomaly, we start every season 1-3 or 0-3. You actually just confirmed the argument rather than refuting it.

In this case, Penix just offers a little more on the physical side. His throws arrive faster so there's more options in the playbook and opportunity for YAC even on stick routes, etc. Doesn't have to be cross or swing routes in his case. Better downfield arm. Better ability to escape. Penix is a little quicker and a little faster. Penix is stronger and tougher to bring down. Apart from that, Ramsey is just fine and a perfect backup QB. I think Ramsey is a very solid kid, obviously a good leader (as I believe Penix is); and someone who has terrific value. I just think, compared w Penix, he's limited.

The difference in the two is not on paper.

I'm not here to defend or criticize anyone, but if you watched the game tonight and came away with "they're about equal," you've got a bias toward Ramsey that's really clouding your judgement.

I'll yin to your yang a little. In a prior thread, most people who replied agreed that a better strategy at Indiana was "get old and stay old." The talent differential of a 4* kid who is a senior in college vs. a 5* kid who's a freshman in college is negligible at worst, and favors the older, more experienced player at best. I have no interest and I don't think Archie has an interest in recruiting kids who are NBA bound before they ever hit college campuses. The pressure of that - a need to be successful with multiple top kids every year - is not bearable for any coach nor program who's not doing that successfully already. Recruiting those players wouldn't be successful at Eastern Wyoming any more than it would be at Indiana. My bigger point is this. Archie Miller has landed 2 consecutive Indiana Mr. Basketball winners (Langford and Jackson-Davis), and has likely landed a 3rd as I think Leal is the one to beat this season if not Galloway). He landed Ohio's Mr. Basketball a year ago. His list of recruits is full of 4* players...all of whom look to be at least contenders at Indiana - meaning we might land them. Indiana plays in a different world than Duke. Than Kentucky. I'm not sure I agree with North Carolina because they tend to have more experienced players; and I think Indiana will soon be on that level. I don't think Archie wants to go down a path of having to land several top-tier recruits year in and year out. That's one formula, but I don't think that's Indiana's formula. Virginia, Michigan State, Michigan, Wisconsin, and others have shown the OTHER formula - recruit good players who stay, get old and stay old - works just as well if not better in some cases. Texas Tech had a shot last season and they didn't have a single top 100 recruit. What they DID have? Really smart basketball players; experience; length; depth; shooters; and good defenders. 31-7. But...statistically? They were very average. They weren't the best at anything except shooting % on both sides of the ball, which is a big one I realize. They didn't dominate anything in their own conference, let alone nationally. But....they were an absolute b!tch to play against because the pieces fit and they were able to play within Chris Beard's system and thrive in it. I think Indiana is building something similar, and I think there's a reason many "top names" don't include Indiana on their list. I'm not sure I really care very much. My point in that is building a program around older players makes the pieces fit on a more regular basis than trying to find immediate contributors year in and year out. It took Archie maybe an extra year to get this right; and I think early on he was trying to recruit a different way than he is now. I suspect you will all be very happy with Indiana's program if you'll just let it play out. And thank me later. =) So.....I guess I think it doesn't matter how some top tier recruits view Indiana. 5 years ago, Indiana sent 2 of the top 4 picks to the NBA draft. Victor Oladipo by himself has made Indiana University cool again in the eyes of local college recruits, and I know that because I hear it relatively often. IU is on their radar; and Archie is landing those players. He is also having relative success outside the state, and is obviously attractive to very good players.

You seem to live in a world where everything has to go your way or you whine that it needs to change immediately. That someone needs to lose his job, despite reality, because YOU aren't happy. All about you. All about satisfying your current whims, whatever they may be. All about crying in your crib and expecting to be fed within 10 seconds or you just cry louder until you get what you want. You let me know how frequently the revolving door is successful. I'll be more than happy to close my mouth when you can do that with even a modicum of consistency. It would serve you very well to take circumstances into consideration before you hold someone accountable to whatever results you deem successful. Nobody said Archie gets 5-6 years to make the tournament. Nobody said he shouldn't continue to have more success each season. But damn, dude. You act like Indiana was in great shape when he took over and somehow he's failed. As if DeRon Davis didn't rupture his achilles two years ago. Like Colin Hartman didn't miss a bunch of time with injury. Like Zach McRoberts WASN'T 5th on the team in minutes played (yeah,....we were THAT bad in terms of talent). Once Davis got hurt, I'll let you tell me how he was expected to play with Big Ten big men with Juwon Morgan, Freddie McSwain (who might be 6'6"), Clifton Moore, and Tim Priller. I'll let you tell me how that team was supposed to gel learning a system 180* from Crean's and without a single one of his recruits. Last season was far better, especially late, but Phinisee still got hurt and really missed over a month...by far IU's best ball handler. Green missed 7 games. Davis missed 5 and hadn't regained any quickness yet. Langford missed 3 games. McBob, who IU counted on the year prior missed 9. The improvement was there even if the results didn't please you yet. They didn't make me happy either; but are you really naive enough to see what's going on and tell me he has to do ______ THIS season or he should lose his job? To who? And what would that person do differently?? Mike Davis won right away. How'd that work out for you....in your precious "right NOW century of the 2000's?" How do you think the Cleveland Browns feel about firing Bill Belichick because he didn't win quickly enough? Mike Krzyzewski had a .553 winning % at Army and then losing records 2 of his first 3 seasons at Duke. Think they should have fired him? This has nothing to do with an era. It has everything to do with impatient brats having zero idea how to build a long term succesful college basketball program.

IU 86 WIU 55

IU 27 NW 18

Your outlook is simply sad. Way more bad than good? That's idiotic. And completely devoid of reason or any semblance of foresight or understanding. Beat my chest? Block out the bad? You clearly don't know me or my history very well, and to those who do, you're now not only negative and idiotic; you're also ignorant. You let me know when you see and point out the good in anything...BEFORE you've had to eat crow. Until then? You're a rube pot calling the kettle black making accusations of blocking one thing out in favor of another. Educate yourself before making idiotic comments....especially about me. You have no idea what you're talking about and don't understand what you see. Unless you're choosing not to see it, and it's one or the other. Let's start there.

Why? Why is this year the key year? The general trend of the program is more positive than it's been in years; and this is only the second season any of his players have played at Indiana. I think they WILL make the tournament and surprise a lot of people, but Holtmann and Mack walked into different situations than Archie did, and if we agree (and many did) the best strategy for Archie and his system is to get old and stay old, doesn't it make some sense to let his roster GET old first?? This "win now or else" thing is exhausting. He'll win....some of you may just have to be a little patient before you get what you want.

You are so full of your own bullsh*t, I think there's no argument with you. You have zero sense of context, no grasp of reality, and you have no basis for your opinions except raw data that requires zero thought or application. I'm more than happy to argue about it with you because you have no ability at all to accept or apply the "why" to anything. You're clearly someone who uses the abstract of what hasn't happened yet to make you believe you're right until you're proven wrong. You moved right from "Fire Tom Allen" to "Archie isn't good enough" even after your "Fire Tom Allen" stance was blown to crap because you were proven wrong.....after you used the same garbage arguments about HIM because ______ hadn't happened yet and you had no ability to actually see or understand what was happening. I told you 4-5 weeks ago to open your eyes and you obviously didn't. Maybe you have now, but you've moved on even after being proven completely idiotic. The same is true here. Do yourself a favor and also one for everyone here and use some circumstantial application. Show some comprehension of the situation. Your negativity is poisonous and it's also pathetic. But your lack of situational awareness is actually comical. Edit : Here. I posted this earlier and I know you saw it. Consider this pointed directly at your berth. More and more, I see people here who have zero ability to see what's going on and base opinion solely on numbers from the past without taking truth and circumstances into consideration. I hope you're not sales people who have an explainable bad quarter...you'll lose your own job, and your words here would completely justify it. In fewer words, I see some people who don't know what they're talking about. Same guys who said "FIRE TOM ALLEN!" 3 games into this season. That didn't age well...and I haven't seen one of those bozos say they were wrong. Same here. Fire Archie? Fire Glass? Before everything plays out? They have no idea what they're talking about.

So you're going to ignore a month of good play in March last year, but base your current opinion of him on one bad decision after not playing for a month? Got it. My God there are so many people here who expect perfection on every possession and jump on players, coaches, and administrators when not every single thing goes perfectly. It's exhausting. In IU's last 5 games a year ago, he had 18 assists, 9 turnovers, and 26 rebounds. By the way. Maybe don't post much about him for a few weeks.

The sky was falling the other day with some questioning IU's medical staff and wondering why Archie "practiced them so hard." This board frequently becomes comedic relief.

What he said. When did we start expecting failure? Surely, you ALL can't be closet Purdue fans or Cubs fans? More and more, I see people here who have zero ability to see what's going on and base opinion solely on numbers from the past without taking truth and circumstances into consideration. I hope you're not sales people who have an explainable bad quarter...you'll lose your own job, and your words here would completely justify it. In fewer words, I see some people who don't know what they're talking about. Same guys who said "FIRE TOM ALLEN!" 3 games into this season. That didn't age well...and I haven't seen one of those bozos say they were wrong. Same here. Fire Archie? Fire Glass? Before everything plays out? They have no idea what they're talking about. Sorry if that offends those who want to fire everybody every season, but that's how I see it. There are some facts or at least some loose facts here....which are either being missed or ignored : Archie took over a bad team and had no impact freshmen. Crean left the cupboard bare. Fact. Archie installed a system almost 180* different than Crean's, and didn't have the athletes yet to succeed in that system. Fact. In year 1, not a single recruit of Archie's played even a single minute. Fact. In year 2, Indiana dealt with significant injuries to key players all season. Fact. (And still beat Michigan State twice, so I'd say that constitutes at the very least "hope.") In year 2, Indiana played all season with some level of expectation for showcasing a single player (Romeo) who sat the NIT out with a mysterious back injury. Fact. In year 2, Indiana had little depth in the front court, and whose best and most experienced player was 6'7".. A problem which has definitely been addressed. In year 2, Indiana had significant dead weight on its roster; all of which has been jettisoned or graduated. Fact. (Moore, Forrester, McRoberts - who I liked, but who was hurt and ineffective all season, and Fitzner are all gone along with Romeo) Replaced by Jackson-Davis, Brunk, Franklin, and Hunter. That's a net gain by any measure. I would submit and stand behind this is really year 2 for Archie. Many gave Crean a pass for 3 seasons, and I will never understand how some think it's so easy to "win right away" when a new coach is hired. I wonder if some really understand what they're saying or college sports in general. I doubt many saw the on-floor growth in Indiana last season, but at the end, it was obvious if you really looked. Assuming health, I think Indiana will surprise a lot of people this season, and next season, when we have depth and talent all over the floor (more so if we get Garcia), the trend really goes up. I am very bullish on Archie.

IU 91 Gannon 58

Statements like this make me question whether or not some people truly understand what college sports are. A minor hamstring problem and a lower abdominal issue which could be anything from the stomach flu to a pulled muscle. These are not "injuries," and they have nothing to do with practicing kids too hard or anything having to do with coaches. This is college sports. These are fast, strong athletes with 5% body fat. Sometimes, muscles tweak. Sometimes, kids sit out because their bodies don't need to play against Gannon in an exhibition game and have a little problem that could use some rest. Sometimes, bodies get nicked up. Ask Purdue football. And people are panicking about it?? Questioning the medical staff (although there is one doc on the staff about whom I'd agree completely) AND the coach because we have two very minor injuries after 3 weeks of practice??? If we were talking about multiple concussions or multiple broken bones, I'd get it. But these?? Do you have any idea how hard you have to work and practice to even compete at the Big Ten level? It's a hell of a lot more than layup lines and "knockout." You should go to a college practice sometime. In ANY sport. Are you guys serious??? I'm not saying they won't linger and I'm not saying there's no need to worry. But questioning why kids practice so hard?? That's ridiculous.

You're the only one who can't see it. Does that make the problem everyone else's or.....yours?

Disagree with your first comment. Penix's arm allows Indiana to do a lot more offensively. The ball arrives faster and defenses don't get to the receiver as quickly. Ramsey's YPA is still low in comparison (about half a yard less even with a higher completion %), which is driven by his below average arm. Now....everything else? Ramsey is very close. I think he played well today, yet I still say he's limited. And the offense doesn't have those limitations with Penix. Penix is also faster and averaging a full 3 yards more per carry than Ramsey. Even as I completely agree Ramsey made a couple of great plays today. I just think Penix allows the offense to do much more than Ramsey does.

Taking the job from Penix at this point would be suicide for Allen. He gave the job to Penix who has done nothing to reliquish it. Ramsey has been really good, but not better than Penix. If the job were taken from me and I were Penix? I'd transfer. And it would send a horrible message to recruits. Indiana is better with Penix than with Ramsey, and it should remain Penix's job. I know Allen is loyal to Ramsey and I get it. But the ceiling is higher with Penix and the floor is no lower.

I'll give the kid credit. He is a terrific backup quarterback. He's far from perfect and the decision to start Penix was the right one; but Ramsey made a few critical plays today (his run for a 1st down was huge late), and he's a valuable part of the program. Happy for him...just hope Penix can eventually stay healthy.

He is 16-17 and has the highest winning % in the history of Indiana Football.

Don't call Indiana "we." Your act is so damned tired. 3 weeks ago, you couldn't stop whining and wanting Tom Allen fired without any real justification except you don't like him. Stop acting like all of a sudden Indiana is your "we" again because they've had success. Until your concession speech, I doubt anyone really wants to hear from you.

All in how you define chirping, I guess.

Chirping is not fine. There is indeed a fine line, and I understand; but that crap is exactly what I'm talking about, and it's been constant under Tom Allen. Taunting, unsportsmanlike conduct, late hits, bad decisions....fundamentally unsound. I'm on board with ALL criticism of that stuff.