Old Friend

For some perspective on where Indiana "really" is - current Sagarin (objective, non-biased) NCAA football rankings for Big Ten : Ohio State #1 Penn State #4 Wisconsin #10 Michigan State #16 Michigan #17 Iowa #19 Nebraska #36 Maryland #47 Indiana #48 Northwestern #56 Minnesota #57 Purdue #80 Illinois #98 Rutgers #134 So...you want to fire a coach who has Indiana in the top 50 programs in the country; who had #16 beat on the road; whose recruiting classes are at a level never before seen at Indiana; who has a quarterback who looks like a kid who might be drafted; who has built better team speed and better depth than we've ever had. And you want to do this to go get....who? Another guy you'll want fired when he does something you don't like? Indiana is in the same division with FOUR top 20 rated teams. And you think someone is going to come in and immediately change it....to....what? And that guy will stay, right? Logic seems to have no place here, sometimes.

No. You're the one melting down when they support him and support Fred Glass.

He looked like a completely different player the last 2-3 weeks last season. Good for him.

We don't even try???? Did you watch Saturday? That's just inaccurate. Recruiting is WAY better. Better than Hieponer, better than Wilson. More money being spent on facilities and coaches. Don't even try??? Are you serious?? The quality and state of this team is at a higher level than it's been since 1988. Open your eyes. I haven't ever mentioned MSU in any of my posts, and have consistently used 4th place as a consistent goal. If you believe Indiana can consistently beat OSU, PSU, and UM minus a Jerry Sandusky scandal, I'll smoke what you're smoking. Does Nebraska try in basketball?

So you're telling me you can't see what's happening and extrapolate that into the direction of the program? You're telling me the best you can do is look backward solely at numbers without taking circumstances into account, and base your opinions off of nothing but raw data? And you think this season hinges on Green? Really? Are you really unable to see the changes in depth? The additions to the front court which will allow everyone to play where they fit? No offense, and I don't mean this as a personal attack, but if you truly can't see the team as constructed now vs last season, eliminate the one and done mindset and agenda, elimination of weak links, added depth and talent, the addition of Hunter, another year of experience, health, and playing kids in their best positions...you don't know what you're talking about. We are longer, more athletic, bigger, faster, more experienced, healthier, and deeper than a year ago. Last season we had at least 4 players (Moore, Forrester, Fitzner, McRoberts) who were weak links in one way or another. All are gone. Replaced with Indiana Mr. Basketball in Davis, a versatile and athletic Franklin, who I have seen enough to tell you is a very good player; Joey Brunk who's an experienced big who gives Indiana something they sorely lacked a year ago; and Hunter who was Mr. Basketball in Ohio two years ago. You're telling me you can't make that connection? I don't buy it. I think you're choosing not to.

The reality of our situation is we will start every season 0-3. We'll beat Michigan and PSU once in a while, but not very often. Despite what anyone wants, those two and OSU have 100+ years of history on their sides and million$ more than we'll ever have to spend on football. So, to be in the middle every year, Indiana needs to go 6-0, 5-1, or 4-2 in the other games every year; AND win all 3 non-conference games. That's absolutely why our non-conference schedule is weak....we need guaranteed wins to offset the probable losses or we'll dig ourselves a hole we can't get out of. There just isn't any margin for error with Indiana. Indiana is a basketball school. Basketball drives our bus. That's reality. Arguing against it (not you, just making a point) does nothing to change it.

Appreciate your sharing. Substantiates several things I've said, including teams in the Big Ten East (4 ahead of IU) vs. West (2 ahead of IU), and the fact that we're overall a pretty good team. There are many better, and we play 4 of them. We'll see how we do against those below us. Then we can talk about what needs to happen in the future with more logic.

Okay, this is for Hoosierfan 2017. Offering you an olive branch. I will happily outline every argument I have. I've not intentionally talked down to YOU, but I find some of your arguments without merit, and when I've asked you to substantiate them, you haven't. But....I get why you haven't. So....I'll simply offer this, for no other reason than it's a similar point to the one I've made but about a completely unrelated team. Change the number to 100 and THIS is one reason I don't think it's as simple as "fire the coach!"

Dude, you're buried on merit already. You haven't even touched "merit." But tell you what.... You tell me where my arguments are off, and I'll give you as much "merit" as you want. What is YOUR merit? And you supported Ramsey over Penix or anyone else....you don't have to deny that. I know. I'm only unpleasant because I'm not as negative as you consistently are and choose not to wallow it. I have challenged you (see above), and some people don't like to be challenged. They find it "unpleasant." You want people fired based on your own rationale....but I'm unpleasant because I defend those people based on a bigger picture? The challenge remains. Give me solutions. And don't go backward because you can't change it. You also can't reasonably tell me football has regressed or basketball is headed the wrong direction because it's not accurate, despite what you and 2-3 others think. Starting right now....what do you think IU should do?

OF doesn't necessarily think Allen is the answer either, but you can run with that narrative if you'd like to; unsubstantiated as it may be. I've only argued against the comments that we've regressed under him (we have not) and that Glass should be fired for having hired him (he should not). You still haven't answered my questions. I'm seriously asking you to debate. Not simply state your opinion, which I find unfounded; but defend your comments with something other than numbers. I don't at all disagree with the numbers, but "throw money at it" or "fire him" are elementary solutions. Dig beyond the loose dirt and give me your solutions. Or....just keep on with the same old simpleton stuff and pretend I think Allen is the answer. That's definitely easier.

The idiocy (short sighted and ignoring the broad picture for the sake of minutiae) of referencing the basketball conference record under Miller is mind numbing. Another serious question. What will your opinion be when Indiana does well this season and next?

So basically....you have no solution and all you want to do is b*tch. That about right? You're the guy who spent 2 years telling me how great Peyton Ramsey is and that HE should be the starter, so pardon me if I don't necessarily jump when you ask me to. Again....I think I'll use my own brain. If all you do is b*tch with no solution, perhaps you should worry about something other than what other people think of your incessant whining. It's not a high horse at all....and I'm not ignoring what you say. I'm disagreeing with it and you've yet to even come up with a modicum of rational reason why I shouldn't. How much logic and reason do you need? Apparently a whole lot. We don't need another "fire so and so" thread. It's poison. Constant barrages of negativity are tiring. No message board needs that, so perhaps you need to take some of your own advice? Indiana doesn't need to fire anyone. Using that as a primary first step when you have a problem is as elementary as it gets. Any 8 year old can make that statement. It takes a little more than an 8 year old brain to think through the realities of a situation, see what's really happening at a University or anywhere else, and extrapolate an opinion beyond the two old men in the balcony on The Muppet Show. Giving you the reality of a situation and explaining the facts of the bigger picture is a "high horse?" That's not comical. That's you living in a bubble of your own reality completely separate from......reality.

It was 2 years ago, dude. If we go to a bowl this season, your argument is moot. If we beat Purdue this season, your argument is moot. It means as much that we're likely to go to a bowl this season as it does to day we haven't gone since Wilson's teams. You just answered your own complaint. You whined about not going to a bowl since WIlson, then accurately say we go 4 times in 20 years. This team is a bowl team. You can either see it or you can't. Are you really asking me when recruiting will translate to wins? You expect freshmen and sophomores to translate to wins? Come find me after Thanksgiving weekend.

We get it. There are a few of you who want to fire Tom Allen. Got it. We all know what you think the problems are. People who do nothing but point out problems over and over are just b*tching. What are your solutions? "Throw money at it" and "fire him" are 40,000' lazy, elementary solutions. You're talking about a problem that's existed within Indiana football for 100 years. I don't want to hear "hire a big name," because no big name is coming here until divisions are re-aligned. "Throw money" at who? At what? Are YOU donating money earmarked for football? You guys that whine about changing the way the offense played....do you realize the defense adjusted yesterday? How dumb do you think DeAntonio is? "Hey., IU has been killing us with the short passes...let's just let them keep doing that!" My God...how ignorant are you if you believe that? What football team can you name that's an underdog in a close game against good coaches which is allowed to succeed at the same game plan / scheme for 60 minutes?? Grow up and stop whining. Your complaints have been noted time and time and time and time and time again. The problem? Some of you whined we didn't hire Jeff Brohm. How we lookin' on that front? Some of you comically claim Indiana football has regressed. Even the most ignorant women who rarely watch football can see that's BS. You're coming up with new problems every time one of your b*tches proves unfounded. So...let's stop with the b*tches and come up with solutions and spare us all the whining. No...that's wrong. I can ignore your whining....do it for YOURSELVES. You're going to give yourselves ulcers. Yep. Way too many mistakes at critical times. Yes. Penalties killed us, but they almost killed THEM, too. Michigan State is a ranked opponent. They're a good football team. Indiana is at least even with them and one of the best 35-40 teams in the country. I don't know what your expectations are, but mine are....about there right now. We are very limited by our division. That's a reality you will either accept, or this conversation will be had in 2063. So okay....."fire Tom Allen." Hell, fire everyone who doesn't meet your standards. Fire YOU if you have a bad day at work tomorrow or fail to impress people at your office who don't matter. The head of the mail room doesn't like it because your stamps are always crooked. FIRE HIM!!! What are your legitimate and reasonable solutions? Good Lord, stop whining.

I would absolutely agree with you on the go for 2 strategy, but with 2:00 to go and 2 timeouts left, there's a chance you get the ball back and that's a lot of time. Last 20 seconds or so? Absolutely. Go for the win. But with 2 minutes, I was okay with the extra point. We can nitpick it and disagree with that strategy, but with that amount of time on the clock, I was good with it. I was far more disappointed in the defense than the play calling. That's a good defense and they adjusted to take away some of the quick stuff. Safeties down means you throw it deep. I was fine with some of those, but somehow we lost the middle of the field and Hendershot. I thought Indiana was the better team today. A win we should have had, but there are 5 more left we can win. Time will tell.

There was. Probably not anymore. Waiting on acknowledgement of such. Penalties cost us the game. The one on the punt return in particular. Their defense was exhausted and worn down. We were about to go up 2 scores. One play cost us the game. Everything that happened after that was inconsequential and yeah, we shot ourselves in the foot, but the better team did not win today. This is neither pro nor con Tom Allen, but if anyone sees regression as was mentioned this week, I wonder what you're watching. I also wonder how you extrapolate it into blaming Fred Glass. Same 4-5 guys, and it's tired.

I'm not on the Allen bandwagon, so I'm going to limit my real arguments "for" to Archie. I think the Allen hire is still a "jury's out" situation. I think Archie has shown plenty in his time here; not the least of which is an obvious understanding of where he is. Something none of his 3 predecessors seemed to (Davis, Sampson, Crean). The team got better a year ago. They were playing better late than they were early; and Miller got rid of dead weight, some of which (Forrester in particular) was his own doing. Can you give Glass credit for his baseball hires? For soccer remaining at the top of the NCAA? Swimming doing the same despite having to fire a guy and including adding some Olympic athletes? For improvements in other sports which are happening? For facilities upgrades, which are undeniable even if some say it hasn't been enough? For year after year of record revenue production from donations? For operating in the black year after year? For spending more money on football coaches and having no restrictions on recruiting budgets? Basketball will be fine and very good. I have no doubt. I know that's an unproven comment, but I'm willing to stand by it. I also know you and others wish Glass' job was different than it is; but per his job description, he's doing quite well despite what you may think of him.

How? Recruiting classes have improved if you look at national ranking; he has the best record of any IU football coach in history save Bill Mallory, and Mallory is up by .002%. Indiana is at least as likely to to go a bowl this season as not; and we have some depth for the first time in a couple of decades. There's no evidence to support that statement.

I'd hire the coach from New Palestine right now and give Glass a raise if he did. Not necessarily in every case.

I AM pissed about the last decade of IU basketball. I'd bet more than you. I'd bet a lot, actually. The difference is I am looking more broadly than you are. 1) Glass fired Crean when he had to. I posted a timeline last week which I'll ask you to refer to when making comments about my stances specifically; but I don't believe firing him at any other time really made sense. When it did make sense, Glass fired him. 2) Archie's 1st year, the cupboard was pretty lean and then Davis got hurt, making it even leaner. The freshmen we had that season (Smith, Durham, and Moore) weren't good enough to help; and we had no shooters. Not a single one of Archie's recruits played even a minute that year, and the players who did were all recruited to play in a completely different system. Last year was a disappointment, but you can't ignore the injuries. Archie planned on having Hunter and Thompson all season, and Phinisee and Morgan both missed time. Romeo basically stopped playing mid-February. Those things happened. Nothing to be argued, and Archie hadn't had enough time to build depth. He was forced to play Green out of position and had no depth in the front court. You saw as well as I did what Phinisee is capable of before he got hurt, and he wasn't right for a month. That all hurt the record. I saw, and I know you did too if you're objective the improvement late in the season as clearly as I did. 3) This season's recruits (Franklin, Brunk, and Jackson Davis) are good players. Very good. Adding Hunter, that's a significant upgrade, and NONE of those guys will be counted on to produce like freshmen in years past. 4) Glass isn't my friend. I just know him, and I'm objective about him. His job isn't what you want his job to be. His job is his job, and he's done very well at his job. 5) If you don't want IU to lose, why can't you see the positives and be objective? It's not like I'm making this stuff up. Things ARE changing. If you don't see it, you're choosing not to. My outlook is based on a lot more than hope. Again, you can claim that because you're unwilling to really look; but it's like you're fighting reality in order to have that negative outlook. What should be different? It looks as though Archie will land 3 straight Indiana Mr. Basketball's. I'll let you look to see when the last time was THAT happened. His 3 recruits next season are ALL 4 year guys and will help build a consistent winner. That can't happen overnight, but it seems you want some name coach who would magically produce overnight changes. Lasting changes take time. Take a step back and take an objective look. 7) I'm not on the Tom Allen bandwagon. We can have that discussion later. I gotta' go!

Question for the peanut gallery : When Indiana is a pretty solid team this winter and plays in the NCAA Tournament in a year you all think we'll do no better than .500; what will your complaint be, then? If Indiana football has a decent season and plays in a bowl game, what will your complaint be then? You're going all in on failure and I wonder seriously if you live your lives hoping IU loses so you can come here and claim victory. In fact, I bet some of you took Hunter's clearance as bad news. Indiana's going to be far better than many of you think, and I want to see you here when they are. If in fact they're not, in a year or two you'll get your wish and the turnstile will continue. Same with football. Personally? I hope Archie Miller sticks it up your a$$.

Because it's not the AD's job to dispel fan rumors. This is very much a you problem. You might be wise to either get on board with who we do have or go root for the Thunder and forget about Indiana University. You seem impossible to please and difficult to accept logic or reality. I also don't think you accept the role of a college athletic director, but WAY down the list is making disgruntled fans happy by taking care of minutiae that gets their panties in a wad.

No! Not at all. That was for affect. Nothing more. I'm "in the know" more than some, not as much as others...I've been around the block w IU Athletics and there are names you know that I've played golf with or see on a regular basis; but others are far closer than I am. Truth serum? I know Fred Glass and the man's brilliant. He's a bigger IU fan than anyone here and nobody wants to win more than he does. This thread was created a long time ago, and I have never understood it because any problems IU has go way above his purview. I didn't love Allen's hiring process either; but I DO know others were contacted. I know for a fact a few weren't interested, and Glass felt we needed to fill the void to maintain what momentum we had at the time; Allen had shown to be an effective coordinator, so he was hired. I still say the overall and general direction is positive, even if "winning" may be defined differently to different subsets of people. The truth is basketball will always drive the bus at Indiana, and I believe almost unequivocally that Glass got this one right, despite other coaches who some people like more. I need no more evidence than the focus he put on Rob Phinisee, who I've loved as a player since he was a sophomore at McCutchen. I love his "no BS" way of doing things, and I love his inside-out recruiting style. I think getting Geronimo will end up being a HUGE out of state coup; and I think he'll get about whoever he wants from Indiana. He'll miss on some, but he'll hit on plenty. Yep. We both want the same thing. Go IU!

The world of academia is completely disconnected with the alumni, most definitely the "fan bases," and that's true for most places. Academes live in a world of theory. How things should be or could be. Brand was that person. A myopic academe who didn't understand what athletics mean to a university; almost identically to Michael McRobbie. Sports are the window to the world and by far the best fundraising vehicle any university has. They put Myles Brand's name on a building; but it's worth exactly zero. The names and advertisements inside Assembly Hall dwarf anything the school of informatics can raise in a decade. I'm quite sure McRobbie and his band of yes people quickly approved that namesake. At some point, I'll pee on the lawn of that building and maybe I'll feel better.

I'd agree except it wasn't basketball related and he'll have gone "live" for a while against his team mates. His major hurdle will likely be nerves and the college game atmosphere, sort of like most freshmen. I can't imagine how badly he wants to be back on the floor, but having had 2 sons tear ACL's and get back after it just fine, I'm not sure the mental hurdle is something that will hinder him much. Count me as one who believes Indiana just became a much better and more formidable team yesterday.