Old Friend

You ask me this question and tell me I'm missing the point? That's funny. I know what Indiana is. I also know what you want them to be. You first need to accept the realities of the situation, which you haven't done. We haven't beaten those teams much in over 100 years of trying. You think "throwing money at it" is the solution, but won't answer the very simple question of "who can we get?" You don't like the answer, and I get that, but ignoring it does not mean I'm missing the point. We do start 0-3 every year. That's not me missing the point, that's you in denial. We may win against those teams, but it'll only be once in a while and an anomaly. No matter how much money we throw at it? Those 3 will always have WAY more. Nobody in the west can come close to the money those 3 programs have....like it or not. No, quite the contrary I absolutely understand your point, and if Indiana winds up 6-6 and goes to a bowl, it'll be a moot one. Indiana is not a top football program. It will never BE a top football program. This is a "fire Fred Glass" thread, and I find it very ironic that he hired Kevin Wilson, who you claimed had Indiana in a better place; and now want him fired because the program is essentially in the SAME place, but BETTER than past history....without being able to tell me who they can go get. I don't care who was available. I want you to tell me....with a straight face that you believe Indiana's ceiling is something different than 4th in its own division; THEN tell me what coach is coming here with that reality hanging over his head. YOUR point is very different than THE point; which is the problems in this situation are WAY above Fred Glass.

Yes you are. There are....2-3 of you who can't seem to accept reality from what you wish for. 5-7 is not a really bad product. 52-0 and 34-24 is not a really bad product. Today, we were completely out classed. I saw it as well as you did, but we're not comparing ourselves to Ohio State...you said so yourself. You're asking for 1-2 more wins a year if I understand you right. So we go from "really bad" to what you wish for with 1 win? A better performance against Purdue or Minnesota last year, and we're all good, right? I have not defended and will not defend Tom Allen. You don't have to put words in my mouth. Recruiting classes are now consistently in the top 40; and honestly? I think Indiana is a top 40 program as it relates to talent. If Indiana were in the Big 12 or ACC? Different outcome. In the Big Ten East? We are what we are. So again, help me understand why I'm missing the point by saying you're comparing Indiana to Ohio State. There are 3 programs in the Big Ten that basically start every season 0-3. Indiana has been better than the other two. Our facilities still lag behind whose? Overall...basketball and football (and you do have to combine them), who are we behind? It's not the majority of our conference. I know for sure we have better facilities in total than Purdue, Illinois, Northwestern, Rutgers, Minnesota, and Iowa. I'm not sure about Maryland. Michigan, OSU, and Penn State sell close to 700,000 football tickets a year and have revenue streams we don't have. It's not an arms race, but resources are different. Why throw the lion's share of your money behind football for the sake of 1 more win? The available funds are FAR better spent for the men's basketball program, and I know you understand the economics of that. Indiana University Sports Properties is still top 10 in the country if not top 5; and it's 97% because of men's basketball. That's the program that drives our bus, and wishing that weren't true won't change it. You want to hire a new coach? Fine. If Indiana goes 5-7 or worse again, I wouldn't argue. What I WOULD argue is who we can get. Not many high level coaches will come to a program whose ceiling is 4th in its own division. Not any coach who'd stay, anyway. Because....unless you really ARE saying Indiana can consistently beat the "big 3," that's our reality. What you want is one more win against a western division team which we didn't get a year ago, and Purdue did....so you're jealous? Angry? Whatever it is.....you have to be realistic, and you have to understand the whole of Indiana's athletic situation. Not acknowledging that on your part does not equal missing the point on my part.

So your entire argument is based on basically half a season and one loss, right? Think we need a better sample size before saying Indiana's not in Purdue's league. Purdue lost to Nevada and blew a 24-7 lead in doing so. Wilson had Indiana at 6-6 twice. Before that? 1-11, 5-7, 4-8, 5-7. How exactly has Allen taken them backwards? One game per season when using a 2 season sample you get to cherry pick? That's what you're doing, after all. If Indiana finishes 6-6 this season and gets to a bowl, what then? Your point will be incorrect. Recruiting classes continue to improve. Coaches are making more money. Facilities have been upgraded significantly. You guys are b*tching for the sake of b*tching.

What point am I missing? Look at this thread and the "Fire Glass" thread. People want Glass fired and are using this game as a barometer and saying "top programs do ________" whatever it is they think Indiana isn't doing. I'm not missing the point at all. Spending money guarantees nothing. Indiana starts every season 0-3. That'll be true regardless of how much money we spend. You and others claim Indiana has not spent money....and that's simply not accurate. Assistant coaches are making WAY more than they were and I don't have to tell you about facilities. Methinks I'm not the one missing the point. Or at least not missing reality. Indiana has finished 5th in the BTEast the last..what, 3-4 seasons; so your comment about being better than only Rutgers isn't accurate, either. (You saw Illinois and Maryland today, right?) This all boils down to the loss to Purdue a year ago, really because had we won and gone to a bowl, I doubt you'd be as upset. "Throw money at it" is the argument?? Okay. You're the same guy who kept telling me how great Ramsey was. Got it.

Before last season, Indiana beat Purdue 4 straight times and their record between 2013-2018 was 22-52. Help me. People are using this game as a barometer and using "top programs" as examples. I see the same few guys making points along those lines.

Oh..and Peyton Ramsey is still very mediocre. He makes awful decisions in the read option...wow.

THIS. This is why "throwing money at it" wouldn't matter. Ohio State is Ohio State. Indiana is not Ohio State. Sorry to the ones who believe money would solve things....it would not. Indiana will be at the top as an anomaly. (And I firmly believe will be there on the basketball floor again consistently sooner than later) Ohio State is there every season and WILL be there every season.

Okay.... Again for those in the back. Indiana is not a top football program. Indiana has not refused to spend money. There are less than a handful of schools that are top programs in football AND basketball in large part because there's not enough money to go around. Fred Glass has zero to do with the fact that Indiana gets many kids not recruited by the "football schools." Would YOU choose Indiana over Ohio State or Michigan or Penn State? Other kids don't, either. Spending enough money to get Indiana into that class would take at least $800 million, and probably closer to $ 1 billion. New stadium, and all that goes with it. Big name coaches, recruiting budget, etc. If Indiana had a "football only' facility, do they win this game? Do they all of a sudden become "a top program?" No...no they do not. I'm not saying hiring Tom Allen was the right move, but if some of you think Indiana is ever going to be Ohio State or a program that can consistently beat them...and still be a top basketball school (find me in 2 years), you're on a fool's errand.

This. Ramsey is a lot of things, but "special" in a positive sense is not one of them. He is a decent backup against mediocre teams and a decent starter against bad ones. Against Ohio State? He's slow, deliberate, and can't consistently throw the ball downfield with enough juice to make the throws necessary to have a chance. Can I change my prediction if he starts?

If the multi million donors wanted to "throw money" at football, they would have. They throw it at basketball because that's Indiana's bell cow. Why do you think they haven't thrown money at football since the Mellencamp Pavilion? I DO like the natural build look over drop ceilings, though.

tOSU 48 Indiana 20

Basketball drives the kion's share of revenue at IU. Not football. How will money help take IU from 5 wins to 7? What guarantees that? What coach can you get? If we spent $300 million in a football only facility, how .much are those 2 wins worth even if you can achieve them? Making a fee fans happier isn't going to drive that kind of expenditure. How much have you donated and earmarked for football?

When basketball is back on top, none of this will matter. I know what the problems are. I also know what the reality is. You and others keep commenting that coaches use things against us, yet our recruiting classes keep improving. We're not going to get top 10 recruiting classes at Indiana any more than Rutgers will get them in basketball. Fred Glass' job is to oversee the athletic department. Not oversee revenue generating sports. Our baseball facility was once the joke of the Big Ten. Now? It's one of the top 2-3 in the conference and hosts NCAA regionals and the Big Ten tournanent. Same with softball. Same with volleyball. I have no idea why some of you think, with 100 years of history to draw from, you believe Indiana can be a football school simply by throwing money at it. How do you define "winning?" Is it consistently beating Ohio State, Michigan, and Penn State? That's a pipe dream. If winning means 7-5 and consistent bowls, we can do that without spending hundreds of millions we don't have. Those 3 schools have 6-7 home games every season and sell 105,000 tickets to those games at $75/pop. We have 6-7 home games and sell 40,000 tickets at an average of $40/pop when accounting for kids (not including students). You're talking about budgets in the $50 million (self generated) range vs. $16 million. It's simply not a level playing field.

Florida State spends the 2nd most money on football in the NCAA. They are 1-1, having just been to overtime w UL Monroe. They were 5-7 last season. Money ensures nothing. Every school in the top 30 save Michigan can be considered first a "football school." Indiana will never be a "football school." There's only so much money, boys. Indiana has spent it's money on the basketball program; and while I get it hasn't yet paid off, I'd encourage people to take a true and objective look across the parking lot.

We have upgraded the stadium twice since 2007. We have brand new facilities, top shelf technology, and a terrific weight room. Why do you think we have "refused to spend money?" That's simply not accurate. And again, not about what Fred Glass has or hasn't done.

I'm not mocking you. I'm telling you "throw money at it" isn't going to work. We've (society) "thrown money" at the inner city school problem for decades to no avail because we never solved the core problem. The core problem for Indiana has nothing to do with how much money we spend. And no matter how much money we throw, the 3 blue bloods in our division will always have millions more to "throw at it." There's such a thing as throwing good money after bad. If divisions and conference landscape change, it's a different conversation. But we're sitting as a program which can reasonably win 5-7 games about every season. How many more games do you reasonably think are CONSISTENTLY winnable at Indiana? Do you believe we can consistently go 9-3? 10-2? Based on what? What school has "thrown money" at football and done this? Give me an example. "Imagine what would happen with recruiting." Okay...I'm imagining. I'm imagining Indiana is still in the Big Ten East. Still with a ceiling. I don't like it..at all, and in fact wrote a letter to Jim Delany last year. But....it's reality whether I like it or not. I DON'T think Indiana can "win" at football as I think you define it and never said I did. You're asking me to defend an argument I'm not making. I think in the current environment Indiana has a ceiling and I've said so many times. As long as Indiana is in the Big Ten East, 7-5 or 8-4 is about the limit on any kind of consistent basis, and i think we're about there. And money won't help us go from 5-7 to 7-5. That's on player development, luck, health, depth, etc. Bowling lanes won't do it.

Look, Illinois hired Lovie Smith - he's an NFL guy with a winning record in his 11 seasons in the NFL. They went and hired a "name." They pay him $3.5 million/year. They "threw money at it." Lovie Smith's record at Illinois is 11-27. He has gone winless in the Big Ten not once, but TWICE and has won a total of 4 conference games in 4 years. All of you are dealing strictly in hypotheticals. Throwing money at football ensures exactly nothing. Hiring a different coach, regardless of his name ensures exactly nothing. I'll grant Bill Lynch was a bad hire. I'll grant Gerry DiNardo was a HORRIBLE hire. I don't think Kevin Wilson was a bad hire, and I see no signs yet that Tom Allen was a bad hire. Building a $500 million football only complex doesn't ensure anything. Kansas has awesome facilities. When Indiana's at the top of the basketball world again, this will be no big deal. But for now, there's no proof of anything except people wanting to keep up with the Jones's. Maybe Mark Cuban will step up a-la Phil Knight or T. Boone Pickens.

Bowling lanes. YES!!! We need bowling lanes!!! THAT will help the program.

How many of you who say "throw money at it" (which is a far too simplistic and elementary stance....if we had "thrown money at it," close losses are wins? What? Jeff Brohm just lost to Nevada. How is it an automatic that he's better at Indiana than what we've had? Les Miles? You really think Les Miles is coming to Indiana? Okay.....).....anyway, how many of you who say "throw money at it" have made significant donations to the Varsity Club, earmarking your money for the football program?

Money wins in football? It's that easy? Then why doesn't UCLA win? Why doesn't Vanderbilt win? (They have more money than 99% of schools) It takes more than just money, and spending more than we have is idiotic because it won't matter here. You think if Nebraska just spends money they'll win in basketball?? Lots of failed coaches have been paid a lot of money to fail.

What would throwing money at it accomplish? What coach can we get? Names? Who are they? We could pay a guy $100 million, and the situation stays the same. Indiana is still in the Big Ten East. Regardless of how much money we throw at it (and it would be throwing money away), Ohio State, Michigan,. and Penn State will always have more money for football than we do. They have tradition on their side like we do in basketball. They have 105,000 seat stadiums that are full every weekend. Indiana has thrown as much money at football as it reasonably can. We've thrown money at inner city education for decades and guess what?

I'll prepare my rebuttal.

I absolutely agree with this. (In bold) As long as those are your expectations, I think that's reasonable. I also think that's where Indiana is... We can keep hiring new coaches if Allen doesn't get there, but I don't know what coach would come here and stay here given the restrictions. Again, you're living in the past. The reasons for the failures of the basketball program go so far back and beyond Fred Glass it's comical. I asked "right now" for a reason. I don't think the jury's out on basketball at all. I see what's happening there. Don't you? The baseball team has not "stunk up the joint" at all. Most haven't. Give it enough time before you throw the wet blanket on it.

Help us all understand what it takes to win how you want to win on the football field. What would YOU do differently? We're going to win on the basketball floor. I can see that even if you can't, so that's not an issue. What else are we talking about?

Anyone who truly believes anyone within IU's athletic administration "doesn't care about winning" is out of his mind. Not even worth answering.