Old Friend

This. Ramsey is a lot of things, but "special" in a positive sense is not one of them. He is a decent backup against mediocre teams and a decent starter against bad ones. Against Ohio State? He's slow, deliberate, and can't consistently throw the ball downfield with enough juice to make the throws necessary to have a chance. Can I change my prediction if he starts?

If the multi million donors wanted to "throw money" at football, they would have. They throw it at basketball because that's Indiana's bell cow. Why do you think they haven't thrown money at football since the Mellencamp Pavilion? I DO like the natural build look over drop ceilings, though.

tOSU 48 Indiana 20

Basketball drives the kion's share of revenue at IU. Not football. How will money help take IU from 5 wins to 7? What guarantees that? What coach can you get? If we spent $300 million in a football only facility, how .much are those 2 wins worth even if you can achieve them? Making a fee fans happier isn't going to drive that kind of expenditure. How much have you donated and earmarked for football?

When basketball is back on top, none of this will matter. I know what the problems are. I also know what the reality is. You and others keep commenting that coaches use things against us, yet our recruiting classes keep improving. We're not going to get top 10 recruiting classes at Indiana any more than Rutgers will get them in basketball. Fred Glass' job is to oversee the athletic department. Not oversee revenue generating sports. Our baseball facility was once the joke of the Big Ten. Now? It's one of the top 2-3 in the conference and hosts NCAA regionals and the Big Ten tournanent. Same with softball. Same with volleyball. I have no idea why some of you think, with 100 years of history to draw from, you believe Indiana can be a football school simply by throwing money at it. How do you define "winning?" Is it consistently beating Ohio State, Michigan, and Penn State? That's a pipe dream. If winning means 7-5 and consistent bowls, we can do that without spending hundreds of millions we don't have. Those 3 schools have 6-7 home games every season and sell 105,000 tickets to those games at $75/pop. We have 6-7 home games and sell 40,000 tickets at an average of $40/pop when accounting for kids (not including students). You're talking about budgets in the $50 million (self generated) range vs. $16 million. It's simply not a level playing field.

Florida State spends the 2nd most money on football in the NCAA. They are 1-1, having just been to overtime w UL Monroe. They were 5-7 last season. Money ensures nothing. Every school in the top 30 save Michigan can be considered first a "football school." Indiana will never be a "football school." There's only so much money, boys. Indiana has spent it's money on the basketball program; and while I get it hasn't yet paid off, I'd encourage people to take a true and objective look across the parking lot.

We have upgraded the stadium twice since 2007. We have brand new facilities, top shelf technology, and a terrific weight room. Why do you think we have "refused to spend money?" That's simply not accurate. And again, not about what Fred Glass has or hasn't done.

I'm not mocking you. I'm telling you "throw money at it" isn't going to work. We've (society) "thrown money" at the inner city school problem for decades to no avail because we never solved the core problem. The core problem for Indiana has nothing to do with how much money we spend. And no matter how much money we throw, the 3 blue bloods in our division will always have millions more to "throw at it." There's such a thing as throwing good money after bad. If divisions and conference landscape change, it's a different conversation. But we're sitting as a program which can reasonably win 5-7 games about every season. How many more games do you reasonably think are CONSISTENTLY winnable at Indiana? Do you believe we can consistently go 9-3? 10-2? Based on what? What school has "thrown money" at football and done this? Give me an example. "Imagine what would happen with recruiting." Okay...I'm imagining. I'm imagining Indiana is still in the Big Ten East. Still with a ceiling. I don't like it..at all, and in fact wrote a letter to Jim Delany last year. But....it's reality whether I like it or not. I DON'T think Indiana can "win" at football as I think you define it and never said I did. You're asking me to defend an argument I'm not making. I think in the current environment Indiana has a ceiling and I've said so many times. As long as Indiana is in the Big Ten East, 7-5 or 8-4 is about the limit on any kind of consistent basis, and i think we're about there. And money won't help us go from 5-7 to 7-5. That's on player development, luck, health, depth, etc. Bowling lanes won't do it.

Look, Illinois hired Lovie Smith - he's an NFL guy with a winning record in his 11 seasons in the NFL. They went and hired a "name." They pay him $3.5 million/year. They "threw money at it." Lovie Smith's record at Illinois is 11-27. He has gone winless in the Big Ten not once, but TWICE and has won a total of 4 conference games in 4 years. All of you are dealing strictly in hypotheticals. Throwing money at football ensures exactly nothing. Hiring a different coach, regardless of his name ensures exactly nothing. I'll grant Bill Lynch was a bad hire. I'll grant Gerry DiNardo was a HORRIBLE hire. I don't think Kevin Wilson was a bad hire, and I see no signs yet that Tom Allen was a bad hire. Building a $500 million football only complex doesn't ensure anything. Kansas has awesome facilities. When Indiana's at the top of the basketball world again, this will be no big deal. But for now, there's no proof of anything except people wanting to keep up with the Jones's. Maybe Mark Cuban will step up a-la Phil Knight or T. Boone Pickens.

Bowling lanes. YES!!! We need bowling lanes!!! THAT will help the program.

How many of you who say "throw money at it" (which is a far too simplistic and elementary stance....if we had "thrown money at it," close losses are wins? What? Jeff Brohm just lost to Nevada. How is it an automatic that he's better at Indiana than what we've had? Les Miles? You really think Les Miles is coming to Indiana? Okay.....).....anyway, how many of you who say "throw money at it" have made significant donations to the Varsity Club, earmarking your money for the football program?

Money wins in football? It's that easy? Then why doesn't UCLA win? Why doesn't Vanderbilt win? (They have more money than 99% of schools) It takes more than just money, and spending more than we have is idiotic because it won't matter here. You think if Nebraska just spends money they'll win in basketball?? Lots of failed coaches have been paid a lot of money to fail.

What would throwing money at it accomplish? What coach can we get? Names? Who are they? We could pay a guy $100 million, and the situation stays the same. Indiana is still in the Big Ten East. Regardless of how much money we throw at it (and it would be throwing money away), Ohio State, Michigan,. and Penn State will always have more money for football than we do. They have tradition on their side like we do in basketball. They have 105,000 seat stadiums that are full every weekend. Indiana has thrown as much money at football as it reasonably can. We've thrown money at inner city education for decades and guess what?

I'll prepare my rebuttal.

I absolutely agree with this. (In bold) As long as those are your expectations, I think that's reasonable. I also think that's where Indiana is... We can keep hiring new coaches if Allen doesn't get there, but I don't know what coach would come here and stay here given the restrictions. Again, you're living in the past. The reasons for the failures of the basketball program go so far back and beyond Fred Glass it's comical. I asked "right now" for a reason. I don't think the jury's out on basketball at all. I see what's happening there. Don't you? The baseball team has not "stunk up the joint" at all. Most haven't. Give it enough time before you throw the wet blanket on it.

Help us all understand what it takes to win how you want to win on the football field. What would YOU do differently? We're going to win on the basketball floor. I can see that even if you can't, so that's not an issue. What else are we talking about?

Anyone who truly believes anyone within IU's athletic administration "doesn't care about winning" is out of his mind. Not even worth answering.

You think I don't want IU to be "good at sports?" You think people are "okay with" the past several years? That's an elementary cop out on your part. You're better than that. If you want to root for any program, you have to be objective about that program. I grew up a Reds fan. I'm STILL a Reds fan. Do I want them to be good and go to the playoffs every year? Absolutely. Same with the Pacers. But economics are a reality for those teams just like the disadvantages for IU in football are a reality. Northwestern is in a division where they can compete year in and year out. Indiana is not. That's reality. Same reality Rutgers faces. Tom Allen's winning % so far at Indiana is .400. Do you know how many coaches have had a .400 record at Indiana since 1947? Two. Bill Mallory and Tom Allen. Know how many top 35 recruiting classes Indiana had before Tom Allen? One. Only...one. You can deny history all you want. You can pretend the division doesn't matter to recruiting, coaching hires, etc if you want. Doesn't make your reality different than reality. The basketball program is climbing out of mediocrity very quickly. I can see it even if you can't. Find me 18 months from now. You tell me to get mad, I'll tell you to give some credit to the guy who's built the overall IU Athletics program with huge restrictions on him. You guys can stay pissed all you'd like. Won't change what IU football is. What you two are really saying is you want Indiana to be good at football because every other argument is hypothetical if we're looking at "right now." I think you'll change your tune this winter. We'll see. Indiana football is what Indiana football is. Like I said, you can fight or deny that all you want to. But....blue bloods and college powers are what they are and have been for 100 years. Indiana is a middle of the pack team. In any other conference or division, they're in bowl games every year. In THIS one? They're not. 7-5 and the occasional 8-4 is as good as you're going to get on a consistent basis. If you want to die on the hill that says we can be consistently better, go for it. But it'll be a lonely death.

When exactly - in the 100+ year history of the program other than the late 1980's - has the football program been anything other than "hope for a bowl appearance?" You act like Indiana has fallen into that position, when the opposite is in fact true. The basketball program is on its way up and the NCAA appearance is a step, not a destination. Go root for a "real sports school" if that's where your head is. Take a step back from the b*tching wall and really take an objective look at where things are right now. I don't care where things have been. I've been as vocal as anyone about that. But right now...today; you're painting a much more dire picture than is reality. And yes, IU will get its a$$ kicked on Saturday. Doesn't change anything. Like I said earlier, anyone who thinks Indiana should consistently beat Ohio State has to also believe Rutgers should consistently beat Indiana or Michigan State or Wisconsin in basketball. Call me defeatist if you want to....but truth is what truth is.

I disagree on the basketball team; but even if this season's not what we all want, I think the program is in great shape and getting better. Time will indeed tell, and I'm more bullish on the future than some are. Football is what it is. We can want more, and if we were in Purdue's shoes I'd agree that were reasonable. In the East? I don't.

I'm not telling you I think Fred Glass has done a terrific job, but you're not being objective. The basketball situation was handled. First by Dakich getting rid of the criminals (and sorry to the haters, but that happened), then firing Crean. If you don't see the improvement on the court (late last season vs. early last season and the year prior) and in recruiting, again, I think you're being intellectually dishonest. Archie is entering year 2 with his own players, has signed back to back Indiana Mr. Basketball's, and his 2020 class is shaping up very nicely for a guy trying to build a program for long term success. You don't think adding Brunk, Franklin, Jackson-Davis, and a healthy Hunter will make things a whole hell of a lot better? You're saying "not yet," which means you're looking in the past. Open your eyes and look. Indiana is going to be very good, very deep, and won't have a weak link. Unlike last season when we had...3 or 4. Seriously....look. Football has depth for the first time since the 1980's. Recruiting classes are ranking in the 30's. When's the last time THAT happened? The problems with the football team are more scheduling than anything. Indiana starts almost every season 0-3, and I know you don't want to hear that, but it's accurate. You complain about the "Fred hires," but who DIDN'T he hire? Clarence Doninger didn't hire Urban Meyer. That was before the Big Ten divisions. Who will IU attract when the reasonable consistent ceiling in their own division is 4th? We could hire a big name or up and comer, but how long would they stay? Paying a coach $5 million doesn't change the fact that we're in the same division as 3 college football blue bloods. Saying we should be better than 6-6 or 7-5 every year is the same as saying Minnesota or Rutgers should win the Big Ten in basketball on a consistent basis. Everything you've given me is old news. Right now....at this moment...what are you pissed about? I don't want to hear about Kevin Wilson or Bill Lynch or 2014 or what we're on the verge of because that's hypothetical. We're also on the verge of being consistently really good. Right NOW, what is it? Hit me. The bigger problem is Michael McRobbie. This thread should be about him. Not Fred Glass.

Okay....so you're complaining that we're late? That what we have....which in many ways is far beyond what other schools offer...happened on a different timeline than you wanted? I asked what...right now....he was pissed at. You're complaining about the past. A dollar short? In what way are we a dollar short? Again, you're b*tching about the past. Our football stadium is what it is, but it's damned nice and in a great setting. Assembly Hall hasn't been replaced because you can't build that kind of arena now, and it's one of the best home court advantages in college sports. That's not going away and it shouldn't. Cook Hall is a terrific facility, but doesn't NEED to be anything other than what it is. So what if it wasn't one of the first? (Again, I asked about "right now") In the last decade, we've upgraded football, basketball, baseball, softball, swimming, golf, wrestling, and volleyball, and probably others I can't think of right now...all with a president who takes money from athletics and gives it to the general fund. Indiana is a leader in facilities now whether you acknowledge it or not. Have you seen the new locker rooms for football and basketball? Have you any idea of the technology available there? Or the resources? Our baseball stadium is one of the top 2 or 3 in the Big Ten. IU also is a leader in revenue. Indiana University Sports Properties is (I think) still top 5 in the country...speaking of leaders. Football is what it is as well. If you think Indiana is going to consistently beat Ohio State, Michigan, and Penn State, I invite you to look at the last 100+ years of history. You're dreaming if you believe that. Reality sucks sometimes. This is one of those times. IU's football team/program has a ceiling. You don't want to hear that, but as long as the divisions are what they are....it's true. We haven't beaten Ohio State since 1988 and Michigan since 1987. There's a reason. So...if you want a new coach, who's coming to Indiana with a ceiling of 4th in their own division except for that anomaly we see once every 30 years? Sometimes...you accept who you are. Just truth. Basketball is very much on the upswing for both genders (and I know we care about men's basketball....just saying). Soccer remains one of the best programs in the country. What do you people want? I get the past mistakes....but b*tching about the past is a fool's errand. So tell me what exactly....right now...you're pissed about.

Well this is interesting... https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/indiana/2019/09/09/indiana-sports-gambling-iu-hoosiers-basketball-player-joe-hillman-linked-gambling-ring/2265952001/

Okay, so what is it...right now.. you're pissed about? If you don't see the almost universal upgrade of IU Athletics on and off the field/court, you're intellectually dishonest. And then of course...there's this. Speaking of standards. Although I'm pretty sure this isn't what you meant.

But it took a long time to get there. =)