Old Friend

Stemming the tide, maybe. Seen this movie before. I saw someone say they had heard he was the most complete offensive player in Marion County and could see that legend begin to build.

He absolutely pulled some in (probably a poor choice of words on my part), but he didn't focus on it, nor did he bring in one or two and allow those kids to have different agendas than everyone else. Nor was his mentality "win now." "Stars" weren't his focus. Kids who could succeed within his system were. Brian Evans, for example was on nobody's "star" radar in high school and became the Big Ten POY. Cheaney broke his leg his senior year and was not highly touted in high school, yet became the Big Ten's all time leading scorer. AJ Guyton was another not highly touted kid. Pat Graham was a relative unknown until he was a senior but had an IU offer as a junior. Just examples...Grunwald, Woodson, Abernathy, and any number of successful role players like Eyl, Leary, Meier, Sloan, Radford, etc. There are a lot of kids who had successful careers under Knight who weren't what we would call "stars" today, but there were also kids who WERE and fit what he wanted. Does that make sense? What he (Knight) didn't do was bring in many kids who were 1 or 2 and done. Regardless of how kids were rated in high school; Knight recruited (especially when HE was the one recruiting). And some of the "stars" he DID bring in failed because they were hyped and not used to his discipline. Recker, Collier, Funderburke, etc. Yes...for sure he brought in highly talented kids; but he didn't prioritize instant success or "win now." That wasn't his focus and my point was Indiana fans had been conditioned to compete in the Big Ten every year and compete nationally about every 3-5 years unless Knight was able to stack recruiting classes on top of each other. His best teams had seniors. His best teams were built over time. That was - at the time - what Indiana fans were used to and I believe then and now would embrace that as long as they were seeing the build. I truly believe Beilein at that time would have been the perfect hire; and again, depending on who you believe, he was on an airplane with a contract in his hand when Herbert vetoed it and insisted Indiana hire a minority to replace Davis. Oh, and Herbert thought Kelvin Sampson was black. Which I still think is hysterical. The velvet fog......

I wasn't aiming any comment at you. More smiling at the mentality that seems to say year after year that kids are magically ready to be Big Ten players simply because they become available. If they can breathe, they're a target. "Best offensive player in Marion County" and comments like that make me smile... Cathedral is in Marion County, and I can promise you Arman Franklin is worlds better offensively than LaRavia. Ahmoni Jones from Pike put up 32 and 10 head to head AGAINST LaRavia this season and just killed him. I'm just saying I can see the legend brewing because he's available. Remember Mike "Kong" White who was going to come here and dominate the paint in the Big Ten? That started with a highlight video.

There are a bunch of kids who have "gotten it done" in that conference. I played in that conference. I still live within the boundaries of that conference. There are also a lot of kids in that conference who will play intramural basketball as their next step. I think you're devaluing Brown's skills (and again, not saying either is right or wrong); but I'm more laughing at the "next shiny thing" mentality. Same people who fawned over Clifton Moore's potential and Jake Forrester's athleticism probably think LaRavia is going to come in and contribute as a freshman.

Okay, you can do better than look at a stat sheet, right? He had 3 turnovers. He was credited with 2, but the play near the end...the strip/steal was counted as a blocked shot. He also threw 2 careless alley-oop passes that would have been turnovers had his team mates not cleaned up after him; and you have to have watched him enough this season to notice the horrible shot selection. Those shots people are discussing that stopped momentum and were essentially "my turn" shots? At least 3 of them were Green's. If you look at a stat sheet you see 6 assists (against one of the worst defenses in the country) and 2 TO's. If you actually watched the game and have watched the season.........

Help me. Kid decommits from SIU-Edwardsville and all of a sudden he's capable of being a contributor at Indiana, but Luke Brown, who averages 35 points a game, can shoot the lights out, and has big time D1 interest isn't someone we should go after because he's got some limitations as a sophomore. I'm not saying either are right or wrong, but I do laugh at the logic and reactions.

Green was 4-13 from the floor and took several bad shots again. He also had 3 more turnovers. He's gotta' lose "Bad DeVonte" for him to be a good combo with anybody. The good in him can light up a gym. The bad can lose his team games.

Disagree. Knight didn't bring in many "stars" either. He won with a system. He won with upper classmen. He won with defense and offensive efficiency. He won with kids who understand how to play basketball. He won with those kids' toughness and leadership. Knight's system is Indiana's DNA. Not instant winning and stars. He didn't care one bit how many stars were by a kid's name. Belien, from a basketball perspective, is as close to Knight as there is in college basketball. What makes you say Indiana wouldn't have been patient enough? As long as Indiana fans can see what a coach is trying to do and making progress; they'd have been plenty patient. Especially when we had the opportunity to hire him....which - depending on what you believe - was when we fired Mike Davis. I think Belein would have absolutely been embraced; especially following Davis and TELLING fans we're going to build this the right way. I think that's exactly what people wanted to hear at that time, and when we went for "stars," it ruined the culture of this program and has not yet recovered.

Why would the board of trustees at any university have multiple people who were basketball players? Why is that relevant to a BoT?

I'll give you the first 2. There was no reason....none...to be worse in year 3 than we were in year 2. People that say Crean needed the 3 years would say he needed 8 if that were the narrative. Crean is the guy who made excuses about "the first 3 years," and the blind loyalists drank the Kool Aid. His BT record was worse year 3 than it was year 2; and he was already making excuses. Tom Crean needs the best talent to win a game. It is and was very rare for him to win when his talent wasn't quite matched up and he got out-coached all the time.

This is pretty much spot on; so I won't insult you by adding anything of substance. However, to add to Boot's question, not only is all of this true (and there's more to it, especially the part about the administration's conscious decisions; however this is a pretty spot on representation of the problem), is he does it with a smug arrogance I find completely offensive. He seems to think he's the smartest and most entitled man in every room into which he walks. Let's just say if you met the guy, it wouldn't take long to understand why he is viewed largely as an unlikable guy; and I love Dakich for hammering him every chance he gets. You all can hate on Dakich all you want; however as it relates to the insides of IU, he's generally right.

Dakich kills the guy every chance he gets. He's also right!

Indiana 84 St. F 71

I disagree about Nebraska;s facilities, but I'll say Indiana has done about the best it could. Our facilities are MILES better than they were before. And some of the most technologically advanced in the country.

Again, there's more to it than the raw numbers. See above.....I laid it out. Take a peek and then we can discuss it. It's not all Glass' mess.

I don't disagree with any of this, really. It just doesn't say "fire Glass" to me. Northwestern did it without being in the same division as Michigan, Ohio State, and Penn State. Indiana is basically 0-3 starting every season and has to go 6-3 just to get a bowl. They're hamstrung. We got screwed. We have (along with Maryland and Rutgers) the worst and hardest uphill battle in college sports and it's not close. Damn, man. You and I are starting to agree more and more. What are we going to do now????

Women's basketball and baseball were a joke for decades before Glass. As was the field. It wasn't even a good high school field; and now we host NCAA Regionals there. The baseball program is worlds better than it was. Women's basketball much the same. Men's basketball is more complicated (see above) than just blaming Glass; and football has had its own issues plus the horribly aligned divisions put Indiana, Rutgers, and Maryland way behind the 8 ball. I guess it's just not as simple as saying "blame Glass.:

Everything here is your opinion. Glass was between a rock and a hard place in 2015; and then Crean won the Big Ten the following year. He fired him when it made sense to fire him. Allen has coached 2 seasons and a lot of things are improving. You can't just fire coaches because you believe they blow a game or two with bad decisions or mistakes. (I think you can for the cheap way his teams play...but that's another discussion) If you do that, you'll never be able to hire anyone because nobody will coach in that environment. I get that you're pissed; but it doesn't work that way. It's not a reality TV show. Both Allen and Miller have coached just 2 seasons. I don't disagree with your assessment of Allen, but despite that, he won't be fired for those reasons yet. YET.

Okay, but that's the superficial way to debate it. See above. How much of this is really on Glass? In a couple of years? I'm with you. But he didn't hire Crean, and Crean left IU with a team that finished 10th in the conference and no roster. Archie has had ONE recruiting class play for him; and despite the record STILL almost made the NCAA Tournament. Help me with Glass' culpability in where the basketball team is. He fired Crean when he should have; and both major sport coaches have coached 2 seasons. What are we missing? Broaden the argument to include all of the facts and details.... not just the headlines.

Okay, let;s start with football. You and I already know we look at this differently, so let's just discuss it and forget the battle. Indiana went to a bowl game in 1993. Didn't go to another until 2007. They've been to two under Glass and his hire of Kevin Wilson was a good one. SO while "just two bowl appearances" isn't what any of us want; it's double what Indiana had done since 1993. I'll submit IU Football has been a disaster for most of its history; so this isn't a Glass problem; and in fact, under Glass, the program has actually improved in many ways, not the least of which is in facilities. They are recruiting better. They have better assistant coaches... Unless you believe Indiana can be a top football program (and I do not believe that based on over 100 years of history), it is what it is and it's no greater disaster now than it has ever been. In fact, I'd say it's far better....but yes. Tom Allen has to win more. No doubt about it. All of that said, the Big Ten has screwed Indiana football. I'm not sure what Glass can do about that. His hire of Allen can be called into question; but we're still just in year 2 of that tenure and recruiting has taken a giant step forward. IU's division will play a much larger role in our success or lack of it than anything else, and again, that's not a Glass issue. Glass didn't hire Tom Crean. We can all complain about his lack of foresight to not hire Brad Stevens, but that's a little nitpicky. Blaming Glass for men's basketball's disaster doesn't make sense to me. Crean did just enough to keep his job for 9 seasons. Yeah, he needed time to start over. Then he beat #1 ranked Kentucky. Then he went to the Sweet 16. Then he won the Big Ten and went to the Sweet 16 with a team that was ranked #1 in the country. Then he finished 8th the following season. Then, 2 years later, he won the Big Ten again. Then he finished 10th. And then he was fired. Help me with your perspective on when Glass was to blame for not firing Crean or what Glass should have done to mitigate the disaster? I don't see a "good time" to have fired Crean before he did. And since Glass didn't hire Crean, I find it very difficult to blame him for his first 9 seasons on the job. Then he hires Archie. We are in year 2. Crean's last recruiting class was Durham, Smith, and Moore. When he left, so did Annunoby, Bryant, and Blackmon. Davis tore his achilles., Hunter missed an entire season. Thompson has basically missed two,. We were reliant on DeVonte Green and freshmen, one of whom was only here because he had to be, to compliment Morgan; and it was successful for a while....but unsustainable when Phinisee went down with a concussion leaving IU with 2 guards and thin everywhere. Moore, Forrester, and Anderson were dead weight all season. I suspect one or more of those kids will be gone. McRoberts was hurt all year. Fitzner was what he was. A 5 PPG guy from St. Mary's who was over his head against better players...brought to Indiana to fill a couple of needs and was probably counted on more than was fair. I just don't see Fred Glass as culpable in the disaster unless he lets this go on too long. He fired Crean for lack of consistent results. Why wouldn't he terminate Archie for the same reason? He can't do that in year 2, and I know you know that as well as I do.

YOU don't care. As an athletic director...HE cares. Because he HAS to care. HIS bosses care. You don't think Indiana fans cared when we were in the college world series a few years ago?? That's idiotic. Women's basketball set an attendance record this year by a wide margin. They had a great crowd with them when they won the NIT and had set attendance records in prior seasons as well. You don't think people care about Lily King? Seriously? Football is paralyzed by its division. That has nothing to do with Glass. You're smoking something if you think Indiana can consistently finish higher than 4th in its own division. That's a reality you just need to swallow. Until divisions are re-aligned, the situation is what it is. You can b*tch or you can accept it. I know Fred Glass. Known him for over 20 years. He does understand that. It's ridiculous of you to think he doesn't, as is thinking YOU know the answers and have the understanding but he doesn't. You really believe someone who ran the Capital Improvement Board in Indianapolis doesn't understand that basketball (a top revenue producer in the country) and football are his main revenue producers?? Seriously, man. Get a grip. His job is to oversee and succeed at 24 sports. Not 2. IU produces plenty of revenue....so he's doing his job just fine in that regard. Why do you think he fired Tom Crean?? You need to get an understanding of your own. Why would you bring up Shaka Smart and Cuonzo Martin?? What do they have to do with anything? Smart is a system coach who's got a .500 record at Texas and has done nothing there. He'll be fired soon. If Archie doesn't win, he will be too. What's your point?

No..that's not what he's judged on. Maybe by you. How do you know there would be no interest? Do you know he ran the Indianapolis Capital Improvement Board before he came to Indiana? Indy's been kinda' successful with sports and conventions; and he's largely to thank for a lot of that. Don't believe your own judgement of him is everyone else's judgement of him. Or better yet, look beyond what you consider important. I don't pretend he's done a great job with everything; but judging Glass because of what happened on the basketball court in Archie's second season with a flawed and injured roster is pretty narrow. Sorry...

Okay, let's boil this down. When Archie was hired, many people here and elsewhere lauded it because he was thought of as a great and young up and coming coach. He may still be, despite this season's record. How can you take what Archie has done (with ONE recruiting class of his own), criticize the roster, which is still largely Crean's, and extrapolate that into "what a terrible athletic director?" This roster was flawed, injured, and exposed when Phinisee went down. There is a long explanation of that sentence, but I've already explained in another thread. Has nothing to do with Fred Glass. He didn't hire Crean. Listen, I hate the athlete bill of rights. It's ridiculous and paralyzing to coaches. I hate the kumbaya attitude and that there doesn't seem to be a priority on winning in the major sports. But here are some facts : 1) Even in football, Indiana is bringing in better players than ever before. This 2019 recruiting class is its highest ranked in school history. 2) Last year, for the 6th consecutive year, Indiana set its own graduation success rate. 91% of our athletes graduate. Fans may not prioritize that, but the powers that be do. And Indiana had perfect scores in 2018 in 10 sports. Including men's basketball. 3) This coming season, Indiana will spend more on its football program than ever before. For example, Kyle DeBoer will make more than any assistant coach at IU in any sport. 4) For 5 seasons, Tom Crean led the Big Ten in recruiting spending and for 2 seasons was top 3 in the country. Our coaches are supported with the resources they need. 5) The baseball program is having unprecedented success in recent years, 6) Women's basketball won the post-season NIT a year ago. 7) Indiana has one of the best aquatics centers in the country and is nationally competitive in both men's and women's swimming and diving. 8) Men's soccer remains nationally competitive year in and year out 9) Women's softball - historically awful, is 25-6 and ranked #19 in the country right now. 10) Indiana University has perhaps the most technologically advanced facilities in America. 11) IU sports properties is still a top 10 revenue producer in the country and men's basketball top 5. Now....there are warts, to be sure. He's cheesy. He seems to fit the "everybody gets a trophy" persona. BUT..he did fire Tom Crean because results weren't happening and I think he does know men's basketball has to win. But let's not hold him accountable for being a terrible athletic director. He's far from it.

I'm more concerned with style. The ACC, for example plays a wide open style that's not as physical. Much more fun to watch. Historically, some Big Ten teams have gotten in trouble with fouls because they play a physical game and NCAA refs don't allow it. Indiana needs more talent to be sure, but I'm not sure the Big Ten doesn't need to change the way they officiate and perhaps the kinds of athletes they recruit.

As far as kids who contribute, we lose Morgan and Romeo. We gain Hunter, Jackson-Davis, and Franklin for now and perhaps more. Thompson will be healthy. As will Phinisee and Davis. I don't see how we can be worse. Morgan was out of position all season. Romeo showed he is pretty limited for a kid ranked as highly as he was. Franklin had a senior season at least equal to Romeo; and Jackson-Davis is a flat out player. I'm not seeing worse. I'm not seeing Big Ten champ or anything either; but I don't think....21-10 is out of the question.