Old Friend

Smith isn't a ball handler. You can't give a non-ball handler the ball 30 feet from the rim as he's running full speed toward a defense that has 3-4 guys down there.

He runs plenty for himself.

Yes. he was ranked as the #6 recruit in the country. One spot behind Zion Williamson. He was officially very over rated and I don't buy this "sore back" thing one bit.

Tell me which part of a very simple point you didn't understand. This will be good. I do love the "toss my scarf and leave in a huff" departure. Very dramatic. You just HAD to have the last word, right? Say what you want to say and run rather than actually debate? Does this description of liberals basically describe your feelings for me? I bet yes. And I bet your face looks like this. Does IUc2016 mean you graduated 3 years ago? The very least you can do is be accurate. If you need to fabricate (which you did), you really have no point, which means it's a personal thing; and I couldn't care less. Bring it if you want....or don't. But stick to the truth. I made my comments (positive) about him a long time before the OSU game. So it did NOT take that. You're wrong. Simple as that. So who derailed what? This is a you problem.

In the game I was referring to? No. He did not. But hey, go ahead and mix up the games and whatever point you're trying to make so it fits. I know that's easier. Your reading comprehension issue is not my problem.

Go ahead and finish that. Don't stop there. Continue with the idiocy. Did I miss something, or did he hit 8 of 10 last week when I complimented him? Hell, you probably think his 2 week span when he was 8-37 from the floor with 13 turnovers was an anomaly, right? At least those are real numbers. Good Lord.....why on Earth do you or anyone else care if I love the kid's game or not?

Indiana gets its revenge IU 83 Ark 74

You're giving me your opinion. You're not telling me anything, and the data does back up my argument...see below. I disagree with you. Green making things happen ends badly at least as often as it ends well and on a better team, I don't think he'd see the floor. You and I see him very differently, which is fine; but as much as you think I'm wrong, I think you are. If you're eliminating the eyeball test, you're arbitrarily eliminating reality. 5-6 possessions a game is not only true, it's probably conservative, FJ. Let's agree to disagree because it really doesn't matter, but watch the next game objectively. And I'll leave you with this since you're a numbers guy and think I'm not close : Last night he was 4-13 from the floor and was credited with 2 turnovers. I'll submit if stats were really accurate that last strip/steal was a turnover and not a blocked shot; but whatever... Not all of the shots he missed were bad ones, but at least 3 were. Plus 2 TO's...that's at least 5. Led the team in turnovers. Against OSU, he was a key factor in bring us closer... no doubt. But he had 3 TO's in the first half, 4 overall, and missed 6 shots; one of them a ridiculous running floater with 28 seconds on the shot clock. Even if the other 5 misses were all good shots, that's still 5. Led the team in turnovers. Games before that he had a stretch where he was really good. Sound with the ball and played within the offense very well...I'll grant that and I made an effort to say so. Against Iowa? 2-8 from the floor; 0-5 from the 3 point line and 2 turnovers. I remember at least 2 bad shots that night so let's say that's all...and that's 4 at least. Led the team in turnovers. We lost in OT. Purdue 1-7 from the floor and 3 turnovers. Led the team in turnovers. We lost by 2. Minnesota 1-5 from the floor. 2 turnovers. Whole team awful...not his fault we lost at all. Ohio State 3-9 from the floor. 2 turnovers. Led the team in turnovers. We lost by 3. Iowa 1-5 from the floor. 4 turnovers. Led the team in turnovers. We lost by 5 Really? Not even close to true? Yeah...it is very close to true. I will never understand why you and others don't think his possession giveaways matter or don't acknowledge them as a consistent problem. He was ABSOLUTELY better for a 4-game stretch. So much so I came out and proactively said so. But come on now...I'm not making my numbers up and the eyeball test matters if you're watching objectively,

You're cherry picking. So what if he was the 3rd leading scorer? So what if you can boil down a few stats to polish his resume? The kid gives away 5-6 possessions every game and it matters. Nobody else does that. Nobody else dribbles between his legs and off his foot. Nobody else consistently tries to do things he can't do. (And that's the point, really) You want me to get on Durham for missing shots? Phinisee for not recovering (or being able to see) from a concussion fast enough? I got on Smith too because he spent over half the season being lazy, and I stopped when that stopped. Just like I complimented Green when he had a better, more complete game without the hero plays and bad decisions. You're telling me you watched this season and didn't see Green take multiple bad (selfish, poorly timed, quick, not his best,....name your word) shots in just about every game? You didn't see the consistent wrap passes that take too long, give defense time to adjust, and get stolen? You didn't see careless passes or hero plays that ended up in turnovers for touchdowns? You want me to be hard on other players for what?? My hangup with basketball players is ball security. Take good shots and value the ball. That's MY approach. And in coaching for over 20 years, it seems to work. Maybe you look solely at certain numbers and ignore others? Your last sentence is half right. He had too many turnovers (and bad shots are turnovers). I don't agree at all he was one of our best players. We needed him because we literally have nobody else. But...he lost a starting spot to a freshman for a reason.

Okay. Whatever. Get over yourself.

According to the story I've heard it was very last second and Greenspan really didn't have time to react to it. I do know with 100% certaint Sampson was hired because Herbert demanded a minority to replace Davis. Between he and McRobbie the BOT has hired two incredibly bad presidents from a macro perspective. Neither understand/understood much beyond the realm of academia; and a university's best fundraising vehicle is generally athletics.

I don't think that's devil's advocate at all. Nor do I think it's a bad thing we didn't hire one of those two. What I DO dislike is the mindset. Men's basketball is the world's window into Indiana University. It just is. Having a coach who has a huge persona can be a great thing if he represents the university in a positive way...as Knight did until he didn't. Calipari would have changed the culture here into whatever UK is now, and Pitino's baggage is well noted. I'm not giving up on Archie. I think he needs a new assistant or two (and I think Brusier Flint is completely worthless); but I have seen him adjust and learn this season, and he's far better out of timeouts than Crean was.

I don't think anyone on our team makes the consistent number of poor decisions he makes and has for 3 seasons. I'm generally not hard on freshmen because they're freshmen. Romeo was disappointing as hell this season for myriad reasons, but DeVonte hasn't fixed what's wrong in 3 seasons. Who else should I be equally hard on?

If everyone's bar for success were the same, this world would be very boring. I thought last night, for example, he had some really good moments and made some plays that helped the team. I also thought he made - and think he makes every game - several plays that hurt, too and I think that matters against better teams. So, if he is to be relied on next season, my initial point was he needs to limit "bad DeVonte." We've proven over 3 seasons what we are with him on the team, so his development is part of the necessary changes.

Mea culpa if that was your intent. You know what they say about email/text etc. You might consider something other than a straw man comment like "if ______. you'd be ______" if that's really what you're doing, but if that was your intent I apologize. That said, if we're talking about broken records, you and a handful of others have been on me about "style" for years. And since it's the same few guys over and over, all I can interpret by that is it's a personal thing because I haven't heard from mods or anyone else. So is it a personal thing? If so...as I said, it's a free chat board and there are more important things than some dude's style to worry about. That's my 2 cents.

Fair enough then. But....I would ask those who say things like "I'd trash the kid if he had a monster game and focus on the turnovers" to be fair with me too. Just last week I made a specific point to give props to the kid for a good game; so this can be a 2-way street, yes?

In bold above....as I said earlier, this might be right. Except it isn't. Last week...yeah...last week...I made it a point to specifically single him out when he had a good game. So this is a complete load of fabricated crap from you...and whoever "HoosierX" is. An incorrect assumption because you have a personal problem with me I don't care about even some. Come at me with fabricated BS to fit your agenda, I'll call you out for it. And I am. Sorry I'm not impressed with 4-13 from the floor and 3 turnovers (yeah, yeah...I know. He was credited for 2, so let's say 4-12 and 3 TO's with several bad shots. You're asking me - after watching a 17-15 season with turnovers as a big problem - to just excuse that because you don't want to read it anymore? Then don't read my posts. Ignore them, You have that option, too. You "like" every post that disagrees with me, so that may be a broken record as well. Why don't you let me choose the hill I want to die on and stop worrying about it? This is a free chat board. You don't have to keep reading....but for some reason..you do. And I'm still not convinced you're not the same "Josh" who stalked me for years and complained about similar things.

In bold Because we were left with just two guards if he didn't. You and I see two different players, which is okay; but the narrative isn't incorrect unless you are willing to gloss over the bad shots and careless plays. The problem is not those plays specifically, so arguing specific plays is pointless. The problem is the consistency of those plays. Over 3 seasons. But...both alley oop passes were high risk; and weren't necessary. (And neither pass was caught. Both resulted in baskets by players trailing the play.) Why make that pass? He tries to hit the home run way too frequently and against good teams, it hurts more than it helps. You're a smart guy. Did you really watch him this season and disagree that he gives away at least 5-6 possessions in every game? He lost his job to Phinissee for a reason. He played just 11 minutes (while healthy) in a recent game for a reason; and I will submit he played because we truly had nobody else. No player is all good or all bad. And no. I don't care for his style of play and I'm not wrong any more than you are.

If you've watched how he plays for 3 seasons, you do know. (Maybe you think it's taboo to say it...I don't) If you've ever seen playground basketball in New York, you do know. If you have played competitively against younger brothers of good players, you do know. Hero plays and careless passes speak. As do bad shots. I never mentioned his motivation for anything. You can discuss without putting words in my mouth. Nor did I say he wasn't in some aspects a team player. You've either seen him for 3 years or you haven't.

Mental. 100% mental. Selfish sometimes and thinks he's better than he is. Comes from growing up on the playground and playing against his brother. That brand of basketball and college/Big Ten basketball are different things and he is a playground player at heart. I get it....but at some point you have to learn...don't you?

I know for a fact Pitino called IU twice (once following Davis, once following Sampson/Dakich) proactively and wanted the job. Both times he was told (and Shoulders was involved) Indiana University did not want a coach who might be bigger than the University. I think (based on some decent intel) the Izzo thing is false. Alford wanted the job; and I know Calipari inquired about it. Have no intel on Stevens' contract at Butler, but Crean did just enough to save his job. Twice. Indiana has still not recovered from hiring Mike Davis.

Yes. That was then, Which is why I made the point. IU fans are smart. We / they can see what's happening; and when you can see what a coach is trying to do and see who he's recruiting, it's fun to watch development. Knight's national championships all came with very experienced teams, and by his standards there were some years where fans just had to be patient and let the team build. (1985, 1988, 1990 as most recent examples in his tenure here) I won't argue with you, but given that culture which we had for 29 seasons, I'm not sure why you think fans would have been impatient.

All I was saying above is he has to lose "bad DeVonte." When he plays well and lets things come to him, he is really good. The problem with him is we get the good and the bad within the same game. He made some shots last night for example. Got into the paint. Rebounded okay and made some really solid passes. He also threw 2 careless alley-oop passes, both of which would have been turnovers had his team mates not cleaned him up; was credited with 2 turnovers which should have been 3 because the last strip/steal was counted as a blocked shot; he took too many shots and several "bad shots," and he just needs to be more sound with the ball in his hands. Get rid of the consistent carelessness and he's fine.

Hhhmmm....this might be true...except just last week, he had a pretty good game and I specifically referenced it. And his numbers weren't anywhere close to these. So I have 2 conclusions : 1) You come here to fight. To stir the pot. To troll. Because this adds nothing and it's just a stupid, brainless post designed to troll. Or.. 2) You're okay with turnovers and bad shots as "part of the game." Which is sad. So which is it? In a league where there are close games every night, he gives away 5-6 possessions every game. If you watch games...you know that as well as I do and if you don't acknowledge it, you're as guilty of bias as you say I am. Last night...against a bad team, he gave away at least 6 possessions. Do the good things he does erase those? What do you think a good coach would tell him? Why do you think he lost his starting job to a smaller, weaker freshman? Does that matter against good teams? He's led the team in turnovers/minutes played the last 2 seasons and his freshman year had a negative A;TO ratio; all while shooting under 40% for his career; due in large part to bad or selfish shots. That's just a simple truth. So yeah...because it's a consistent problem, it gets mentioned. Especially when he may be counted on to lead next season. You think fans will tolerate another 18-15 season and watch his act give possessions away every night? Maybe you and I watch games differently. Which is fine.

If you use stats he's one player. If you watch him, he's another. His decision making; his propensity for foolish, careless plays, and his incredibly mind numbing shot selection don't show up on the stat sheet. (Again, when people reference IU having success and then taking some shot that's seemingly out of nowhere and killing momentum? That's generally Green. The poor choices and bad timing that is harmful to his team won't show in a stat sheet) I'll grant he has been a better and more positive influence lately; but even last night there were at least 6 plays I can remember that were just possession giveaways and another couple of hero plays that would have been turnovers had team mates not bailed him out. He gets rid of those plays, he's a really good college player. His A:TO ratio is 3:2.2. Phinisee's is 2.8:1.2. So..while you're right that Green is getting more assists (and that's in some part due to kids making shots), that's only part of the story.