Old Friend

If I were Fred Glass, this is my sales pitch.  I'd fly to Boston when the season's over, offer as much money as we can, say JUST the above (with a couple of slight edits), and shut up.  This is perfect.

8 arrests and not correcting mistakes year over year will produce results that kids (you know.....the ones who were arrested) might not like,  Especially when not one of them makes any effort to lead the team out of it.  People around here don't take too kindly to the selfish crap on and off the court we've seen for the past few years.  I'm not condoning it, however I'm not going to say it's unwarranted.  These kids are grown ups.  They can receive free school, free shoes, free board, free rooms, free tutors, and a lifestyle of the rich and famous, they can stomach a few boos from the people who are paying for it.

The million dollar question(s)?   Will Stevens come?   Does the administration give a damn and understand the stakes?

Not sure if he'd come or not.  Depends on how happy he is.  He has no ties to Indiana or to the Big Ten.    He's in Arizona where the weather's great all year,  he has established recruiting in that area, and he's perennially a top 10 team.  Money's great and he's a good name...is he the right fit?   A dark horse candidate I heard about today is Scott Davenport from Bellarmine.  Even as a bridge...   Not sure of the validity, but he's got blood lines.

They are already lined up.

I actually think Harbaugh is a good comparison.  Someone who coached successfully in the pros, but came back o college because he got his dream job.   I have no idea if he still feels this way or not, but at one time, Indiana was Brad Stevens' dream job.  So I have hope.   He is a one man list until he isn't.  As I've said before, every move Indiana makes should depend on whether or not he would come if the job were available.  He says he will, we act appropriately.  Crean finishes the season, we wait until April 10th or so to let him walk, see what the Celtics do in the post-season, and hire Brad when we can. And I'd give him $8 million a year for 10 years.  At the end of the day, that's chump change if Indiana wins like I think they would under him.  Meaning, he's worth far more than that to re-build the brand.    He says no?  Then we move on to other options, and both Miller and Marshall are good ones.  I don't know that Sean Miller leaves Arizona for Indiana, though.  I wouldn't mind taking a shot at a Keith Smart or Randy Wittman.  I do know we need someone who understands what Indiana basketball is all about; and though I know some disagree, it is NOT spending $700k on recruiting so we can go get east coast guys who do NOT understand.    We need at least one "IU guy" involved at a high level, or we risk repeating the last 15 years.   That's my two cents.

Hoiberg's not coming.   He's at his dream job, so I think we can erase him.   Archie Miller's winning % at Dayton is 66% with < 60% in his conference, and has finished 5th, 11th, 5th, and T2nd..  How is he an upgrade?  He's a name.  There are 1000 names.  He's just somebody new.   Hasn't done a thing to show he could succeed at Indiana.   Bennett's a better option as far as I'm concerned.  Has had success in a major conference, and built that program to a couple of 30 win seasons.  I don't love his offense, and I think people would get bored; but of the folks on this list, he's the one that makes the most sense.

I guess I wasn't sure of the intent of your message re: freshmen.  Maybe I mis-read it, but I agree with the above.   There is not a single major school who would be interested in Tom Crean, regardless of the kids he's been able to recruit.   Bob Knight once said of Dale Brown "nobody has done less with more."   Sort of applicable in Crean's case, too.

Yeah...it does seem like it.  If they had a decent offensive system, cared at all about defense or ball security, if they had any leadership or could make free throws (lack of focus)....  Quick shots and allowing way too much freedom to kids who don't make good decisions are coaching problems, and it doesn't matter if you have an NBA roster.  He's also lost more players than any upper tier BIG program (and are we upper tier anymore?? ).    Getting kids to say yes is one thing.....

Exactly.   The NBA is a players' league.  He may never leave it, but I'm not convinced.  I know he's not a fan of the travel in the NBA and he doesn't necessarily like recruiting; but him at Indiana?  He wouldn't have to do much.  I've heard he'd come and I've heard he won't.  Both from reliable sources.  He's a one man list until he's not; but Crean is not the answer.   Has never been the answer.  He's a snake oil salesman with lots of energy and a good line of bull sh*t.  He's finished above 4th place in a major conference exactly one time in his career.  Same number of times he's made it past the sweet 16.  What else does anybody need to know?    Either we have lowered the bar or we haven't.  

The "only" negative?  You're forgetting the complete lack of discipline and leadership that has led to no less than 8 arrests of players and that many dismissals or transfers within a 2 year period.    There's that....

BBBBBBBBBBBBBWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH...Crean is a good coach.  That's funny.  What else ya' got?

This won't happen.  But Indiana has to know with absolute certainty whether or not Brad Stevens would entertain the job if it were available.  Every move we make from that point forward depends on his answer.

And they all need the ball to succeed.  This is one reason why I don't want to hear another word about what a great recruiter Tom Crean is.  He has no clue how to build a roster.   And he spent THREE TIMES what anyone else did on recruiting, and 10x+ more than Wisconsin!!   I still don't understand why we need to spend that kind of money or as much time as we do to recruit the east coast.  What's it getting us?  Turnovers?  A bunch of kids who don't have any discipline?  A complete lack of leadership?  I'm stumped.

Here's where I think you're not giving enough credit to where academics and athletics collide.   I heard Bob Knight give a talk once (not long ago), and someone asked him that very question...."what is the place of athletics within an institution of higher learning?"  He said - and I'll paraphrase - the two have to coexist with mutual understanding of the value of both.  When you think of Notre Dame, you don't generally think of the great school it is.  You think of the football team, which they've made movies about.  When you think of Michigan, you think of football.  When you think of Duke, you think of basketball.   And all are fine institutions.  He went on to ask the crowd to name famous alumni from Stanford.  The answers were predictable...Condaleeza Rice was first, but then...Tiger Woods and John Elway.     The point is, if you travel the world and ask people what they think of when you say "Indiana University," the answer 90+% of the time is going to be "basketball" or something related to basketball.  That's just reality.  The men's basketball program is a very prominent window into the university, and gives IU a chance to promote itself, to sell itself on a stage with millions of people watching.   Not every school has what Indiana has...Purdue doesn't....they're known for engineering.  Same with Illinois.  Same with tons of other schools.      I've said this a million different ways (and as mentioned, it's been discussed ad nauseum), but having the pulpit we do is one of the great things about IU Basketball, and something that makes us unique.  Sure, I'd be a proud Hoosier if we didn't have a basketball team.  Problem is.....we do.   And it's very, very visible, and a known entity worldwide.  Which is why it's sacred.  Which is why it's so damned important to people.   Which is why Tom Crean disgusts me as much as he does.   Never in my life have I seen a more undisciplined group of kids on and off the floor.  Never have I seen such incredibly poor leadership from the top down at an entity so important.  Wait...I have, but we don't need to make this a political thread.  McRobbie doesn't care about sports.  I think that's a very short-sighted approach, but I don't think he should have anything to do with this conversation.  Like it or not, athletics generate millions upon millions of dollars for every major university.  Indiana is no exception.   Mickey Maurer gave $35 million over 10 years for the law school.  Cindy Simon gave a lump sum of $40+ million for Assembly Hall.  That's the reality of the world, and whether or not anyone agrees with it doesn't change it.  Indiana Basketball is critically important.  Period.

Have been trying to stay quiet...but I can't anymore.   You really don't understand how this reflects on the program (which is supposed to be nationally elite) to donors, recruits, alumni, television networks, the university administration, and pretty much anyone who pays attention to college basketball?   I am truly without words to comprehend how anyone can just think nobody cares and this doesn't matter.  You are a crowd of one.  And you can stop trying to convince everyone else.   This matters at Indiana.  You either get that or you don't.  This kind of thing does not happen at other top programs; and after all of the other crap we've dealt with, it's one more problem, one more black eye, and one more piece of bad press.  I am simply stunned that doesn't register.

I've coached a long time.  Crazy parents are very easy to identify, and they're poison.  Most non-issue?   Disagree.  That kind of thing is absolutely divisive, and it shows an agenda that does not match that of any successful program.  You just can't do that....especially after one game.   You turn your child over to a coach, and if you have a problem...you talk to the coach.  24+ hours after the problem.  That's how you do things.  You do not publicly air your grievances and you do not do what she did.  It is far from a non-issue.

I will admit ignorance relative to her.  This is the first I've ever had any visibility to her, and apologize if it's old news.

The "fire Crean" threads and posts have been around a while, so I thought I'd start a new thread to discuss a broader topic :  the standards and expectations at Indiana.   1)  Yesterday, Troy Williams' mother tweeted this :  https://twitter.com/westonlawless/status/669235834659434496.  Please pardon the profanity. (If anyone knows how to blacken the f bomb, please do...I couldn't figure that out as it's not a PDF)   That is not okay.  It is not who Indiana is, and not what Indiana stands for.  That screams entitlement, it screams selfishness, and it screams of a family who has absolutely no idea where they are or how to accept a challenge by a coach.   Troy Williams is a marvelously talented player; but this kind of parental um.....involvement cannot be tolerated at this level, and Indiana doesn't need this kind of distraction or divisive behavior by anyone involved.  I know she apologized, but that changes nothing.   Either we're a team or we're a bunch of families and kids with agendas.  If we're the latter, we will never, ever win anything at Indiana.  That's not our DNA and not our culture.  I am disgusted with this woman, and she needs to do a heck of a lot more than apologize.    I blame the woman, and I blame Crean for allowing the culture at Indiana to become what it obviously has (more in a moment)   2)  Tom Crean has been the coach at Indiana for 7 Big Ten seasons.  Even if you take away the first 2 seasons, which I think is completely reasonable and he deserves a pass there...he STILL has a losing conference record of 44-46.   That stunned me when I looked it up.   Indiana has finished higher than 5th exactly once under Crean.  That's bad.  And it doesn't matter how it's spun.   This also is not okay.   At least I don't think so.  Big Ten championships have been the standard for IU since I remember beginning to watch them back in the mid 1970's.  I do not understand why the administration and subsequently the coaches and players have allowed things to deteriorate to this level.  A losing conference record over 5 seasons (discounting the first 2) is enough to get a coach fired at Illinois.  Why is it not enough to at least cause significant alarms at Indiana?  Where do we want to be as a program?  Do we want to win....or....not?   3)  Crean himself has said "our internal leadership has been less than poor."  Okay...he's right.  But what about external leadership?  What about building and mentoring leaders?  What about recruiting leaders?   Seems to me Crean focuses on talented players who have been coddled their entire lives (see : Williams, Ferrell, etc) and doesn't place much effort or focus on recruiting kids who get it.  Who understand from day 1 where they are and what's expected at Indiana.  Or, maybe HE doesn't understand.      Indiana had triple the recruiting budget of any other Big Ten team over the last year.  And 10x higher than Wisconsin.  For what?  For who?  Juwon Morgan?  OG Anunoby?  Tim Priller?   Was Thomas Bryant worth almost $700,000 when everyone else spends about $200,000 or less?   With Emmitt Holt, Devin Davis, Thomas Bryant, Jeremy Hollowell, Hanner Parea, Yogi Ferrell, Stanford Robinson, and Troy Williams all being in trouble with the law within the last 20 months, this program has lost its foundation.  It's a mess.  That's reality.   We are a very talented team this season.  What is the status of our program?   Where do we want to go?  Who do we want to be?  Is Indiana still willing to be elite, or has our administration simply settled for mediocrity and gone the route of :  "Are we now just another school?"  Have the trustees and Michael McRobbie (who should be nowhere near sports) simply decided they don't care about excellence on the athletic field?  Do they simply not understand that our men's basketball program is largely the world's window into our University?  Or is it the fault of coaches?   Mike Davis clearly didn't understand where he was, and changed recruiting focus to the south, fracturing many local relationships in the process.  Crean has focused on the east coast.  To what end?     What can we do about it?  The state of our nation is not positive.  We'll win games, but I think we all know we won't win titles.  Not when we have one of our better players whose mother does what she did yesterday.  Those things are poison.  They're cancerous.  We have no leadership; we turn the ball over at an alarming rate, 40+% of our shots come from the 3 point line, we can't guard, and we don't make free throws.  That simply does not say "long term success" to me, nor do the numbers, history, or recruiting patterns.        I just wonder how alone I am in my concern.  Maybe I'm a lone wolf...and I'm okay with that.  Maybe I have lots of allies.  And I'm okay with that, too.  But regardless of what happens this season, I am concerned with the overall state direction of the men's basketball program.   I don't mean to be negative....but rather paint an accurate picture of where things have been and where I think they are based on data and history.   Fire away.

Understood, but that's not the point in this case.  Crean has made it past the sweet 16 exactly once in his career.   That's simply not good enough at Indiana, and the sweet 16 cannot be the standard.   His winning percentage at Indiana is .528.  That's not good enough, either.  I realize the first 2 years are a pass for him, so even taking those out, his winning percentage at Indiana is just .624.  Again, you can excuse it, you can talk about other programs....but this is Indiana.  And if we're seriously talking about ANYTHING but championships (Big Ten first and foremost), we're simply lowering the bar.  

Far less talented rosters have made it past the sweet 16 with far better coaches.

Like I said...he can get kids to say yes.  That has nothing to do with "being a good recruiter" because he has yet to consistently build teams, and there's a difference.  You either understand that or you don't.  Relative to Yogi....believe me when I tell you I am very close to that, and he's never been a leader.  That's just reality....your leaders don't take 4 years worth of selfish shots.     Leaders don't get arrested and then allow team mates to consistently get arrested.  Leaders make other people around them better.  Leaders take ownership.  Accountability and doing hard things is part of being a leader.  Yogi is not.  Has never been.  He is a marvelously talented player when he has the ball in his hands.  Doesn't make him a great passer or even a great point guard.  He's strong, he's athletic, he's a relatively polite kid who has a huge ego and will end up with pretty solid numbers.   But he also has never done anything at the college level.  He was a freshman on a sweet 16 team.  What else has he done?  0-1 in NCAA tournaments and 7th and 8th in the Big Ten, all while "leading" a team that's had to eliminate no fewer than 5 kids due to disciplinary problems of one kind of another and lost another 3-4 more due to transfer.   I know that happens everywhere, but stop me when you get to "that makes Yoi a leader."     And no....I don't know Crean gets them prepared, which is why I gave you an example (just the most recent) of why I feel that way.   You think the problems (which have been consistent for 7 years) begin and end with his ability as a game coach??    Sorry....that's way too elementary to even debate.

He gets them prepared?   Really?   That's why we gave up 50 in the first half yesterday, right?   They're in great shape...but "prepaed?"   Disagree.   He recruits like a boss?  Really?  A good recruiter builds teams that can succeed at a high level year after year.  Crean can get kids to say yes, but who has he recruited who can lead?  Who has he recruited that wants to defend?  Who has he recruited that is good off the ball and does little things that make a team better?  He had a team that won the Big Ten 2 years ago, and then finished 8th and 7th.  Where was the "recruiting like a boss" then?   Vonleh didn't give a damn and didn't want to be here.  He was a bad fit.   There's a difference between being a good recruiter and getting kids to say yes.  I don't need to re-hash this anymore, but if people can't see the pattern by now, it doesn't matter.

1)  I couldn't care less if the players love him or not.  The way this team loses is now a multi-year pattern, and the coach hasn't improved at all.  We expect him to develop players, and we see them doing Navy Seal training....which doesn't do one thing for decision making, defense, or movement.  Why shouldn't we expect HIM to improve?  He's never won anything...you'd think he'd be working to get better, too.  But no....we get intramural basketball.     2)  Crean is all about Crean.  All you need to know is what he said when Devin Davis got hurt :  "I stayed with him all night."    All of the human interest stuff?  I'm convinced lots of it is phoney.  I've talked with the man, and he's plastic.  A nice guy, but plastic.   Hell, he's told anyone who'd listen for the entirety of his tenure that he's part of the Harbaugh family and coached Dwayne Wade.     3)  People get their hopes up (and it's generally expected that EVERYone buy in or else be chastized), but then come to the stark realization that not only is the coach never going to change and therefore his results won't, but the trustees and administration apparently don't care!  I think that's the frustration as much as anything.   4)  Anyone who claims people who are critical are anything but IU fans has clearly never played a competitive sport in their life.  When people see things they don't like, they're critical.  I don't have to blow crimson smoke out of my arse when Indiana loses to Wake Forest to be a fan.  I have to give a sh*t to be a fan.  Wildly and blindly cheering despite poor results and despite under-performance doesn't make you a fan.  It makes you an idiot.  It makes you a lemming.  The opposite of love is not hate.  It's apathy.  When Indiana has as many off-court um...episodes as this team has had, losing a game the day after your team publicly posts a picture of itself flexing on the beach, and in the same way it's lost games for the last 5 years....it's simply not okay anymore.  Enough is enough.   5)  Crean is predictable.  We'll kill the cupcakes, drop a couple to some decent teams we think we should beat, lose most of the big games but win one or two, end up 21-8 and a #7 or #8 seed, and lose in round one or two.   That's not good enough for IU fans....I'm just sorry that it seems just fine for IU's administration who apparently doesn't care about IU being exceptional.   Instead of "just win," we have "just be interesting."  

Sigh.   I've been reading and trying to decide how upset I really am.   Here's the bottom line.   LSU had a down season, and people are screaming to fire Les Miles.  His seat is allegedly hot.  This is LSU football.  Nowhere near the football tradition that Indiana has in basketball; though obviously very, very good.    They do not accept mediocrity.  They do not accept losses which they feel can be attributed to coaching.  Maybe Miles is back next season, maybe he's not, but they started out 7-0, will still make a bowl game; and their coach is in jeopardy, even with a $3.8 million salary.  Why?  Expectations.  They can do better.  They SHOULD do better.   Indiana plays intramural basketball.  Crean coaches a brand of basketball that may be fun to play, but will never, ever win on a national level unless he's ripe with NBA players who also have some interest in defense or rebounding.  I am on record as saying Yogi Ferrell, as good as he is, can at times be maddeningly selfish, and can shoot or dribble Indiana right out of games.  He's been that way for 4 years, and never been told to stop taking bad shots.      When Mike Davis was the coach, I talked all the time about living and dying by the 3-point shot.  Our team takes almost half its shots from 3 point distance, and many of them very early in the shot clock.  If you can't guard or rebound, quick shots will kill a team...and they did.   Wake Forest got 9 more shots total than Indiana did, and made > 50% of them because of the shot quality (A Clark Kellogg line).  They shot 10 fewer free throws and made just 6.  Indiana made 10 three pointers to WFU's 6, and IU made 10 more FT's.  That's a game you'd think Indiana wins by 12-15 points.    But sadly...no.  Indiana gave up 18 offensive rebounds.   How bad do you have to be defensively to lose to a team that makes just 6 FT's and has just 6 assists?   That's a question these guys, and this coach need to answer immediately.   This is not good enough.  I know...I know.  It's just one loss.  But it's NOT just one loss.  It's another loss to a decent team for the same reasons Crean's teams ALWAYS lose to decent teams.  Nothing's changed.  He hasn't improved.  And his team will never win as long as they play as Indiana has all season.   It's easy to beat Northern Yukon A&T at home when you shoot lights out.  Making shots in your home gym can give any team a false sense of accomplishment.  But in a strange gym against a team that can challenge you, you'd better have a system you can rely on, and you'd better do things that win games other than shoot.   Indiana does not do those things; and hasn't.  That's why this is more than simply "just one game" or "just one loss."   I want basketball players.  Kids who understand positioning, angles, time and score, spacing, help defense, etc.  Those things will always win, whether kids think it's "fun" or not.  Crean obviously wants to recruit kids who will enjoy playing at Indiana, but at some point, it has to be about winning on a national level.  The longer that's not a priority, the more Indiana becomes "just another school."   We are not there now, and nobody can convince me we are; but....Dakich makes fun of the administration and trustees all the time; and this is crumbling on their watch.  I don't know what coach we can get or who we cannot get, but Tom Crean isn't going to change.  His system and priorities on the floor are not going to change.  I think in year 8, we can all come to that very reasonable conclusion.   Yogi Ferrell shot 4-11 tonight, and neither he nor Blackmon made a 3-pointer.  Blackmon went 1-8 from the floor and had 4 turnovers.   That's just awful.  I mean.....seriously.  Awful.  Bielfelt and Hartman were the only ones even trying to match the physicality of Wake Forest, and coincidentally, each had 4 fouls.  I love Thomas Bryant.  He has got to do more in 28 minutes than 5 shot attempts.  Challenge THEIR post players who had 3 fouls between them.   To me, this was the same old Tom Crean bull spittle.  Lots of flash, very little substance, and yet another in a pattern of familiar losses for the same reasons.  It can change....we're only 4 games in, and we're not going undefeated.  I get it.   But man, it's getting tiresome watching this crumble....slowly because we haven't made a quality hire in 16 years.