Old Friend

If you don't understand why this is important, I can't help you.  You're blind and deaf if you don't think there's a reason many top coaches recruit Indiana and the surrounding states heavily.   Your little emoticon is cute.  You're still lazy.

He's also from Arizona.  Why are we recruiting kids from Arizona who aren't top level, 5 star talents?

I'll make one more point and then I'll leave the debate for others.   If you look at the last 6 Final Fours, they tell a story which makes my point.   Indiana is not Duke or Kentucky.   We're not able right now to recruit on a national level the way they are.   That's obvious, and I don't think it's disputed.   Those two schools have made 6 Final Four appearances in 6 years...25% (6 of 24 teams).  Understood.  That's not who Indiana is.   Look at the other teams.   In 2015, Michigan State and Wisconsin both recruit heavily in their own areas, and both are in the top 3 of the Big Ten every year.  Michigan State recruits 90% of its kids from Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio; and has since Izzo's been there.  His top priorities - and he's said as much - are Michigan and Indiana.   In 2014, UConn had 9 kids from the northeast on their roster and most of their key players.   Florida had 11 from the southeast.  UK was there..and so was Wisconsin.  Same story.   2013 :  Louisville had 9 kids from the southeast, and a couple of international kids. Pitino's system is different than most, but he still stays close, and he recruits the area heavily.  Syracuse was very heavy (12 kids) northeast and always is.  Then you have Michigan and Wichita State.  Both very heavy midwestern recruiting bases, and Michigan in particular had only Hardaway and Stauskas from anywhere outside Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio.   2012 :  UK was there, Kansas was there with kids from all over, and at the time, they recruited the way Duke can now.  Understood.  Then, Ohio State and Louisville.  18 in-area kids between the two schools.   2011 :  UConn - most of the roster from the northeast.  UK again.  Butler - no need to tell you where those kids were from, right?  VCU - 12 kids from the southeast - even at a system school.  Kind of shows my point.  You don't need to leave an area to get the kids you need.   2010 :  Duke again.  West Virginia - 11 in-area kids.  Butler and Michigan State.  No explanation necessary.   In the last 6 seasons, apart from Duke and UK, there were 18 teams in the final four.   Of those 18, 16 of them focused on recruiting in the general geographic area of the school, and one which didn't - Louisville - recruits internationally to a specific system and way of playing.  Pitino's his own guy...I get it.  Indiana has more tradition than ALL of them.   I think it's important for kids to come here understanding of those traditions and the rivalries, expectations, etc.  I think it matters.  Some may disagree which is fine; but I guess I don't see where I'm so far off in believing Crean needs to focus locally and go outside the area only to get top talent.   Why do we need Stanford Robinson, Tim Priller, and Jeremiah April?   I still don't understand that.

Knight's recruiting methods and what happened in the mid-1990's are facts.   Revisionist history doesn't change things.  The defense is factual.  You don't have to like it.   Bryant hasn't played one minute of college basketball.   I am not and did not criticize him, but using him as a proof source is hardly reasonable.   Same reason I'm not using Morgan or Obunoby.   Johnson said he didn't understand the traditions of Indiana Basketball when he got here.  Another fact, and yes...I am criticizing that.   Sorry it bugs you.  All I meant about him was I don't ever want to hear that from another Indiana recruit.  Not when the coach said he took the job "because it's Indiana."    We're special or we're not.  And if kids don't understand the traditions, we're not, and that's not acceptable.   Sheehey was a great role player.  When it was time for him to shine as a #1 option, his team finished 8th in the Big Ten and missed the post season.  Another fact.  With a lottery pick big man and a McDonald's All American point guard.   Sheehey, without Zeller, Hulls, Watford, and Oladipo is a very ordinary basketball player.  You remember him fondly because of a few highlights and the teams he was on.   He had a chance to be a senior leader, and didn't fare very well.  Love the kid, but if you're looking at him as some beacon of proof, you need to look at the whole story rather than selective memory.   You can either accept that or you can't.  Again, I don't care; but don't pretend I'm wrong simply because you look at it through a different and more forgiving lens.    

I disagree with you and you're clearly condescending; but I'll try the same tactic.  You really believe there was no method or rationale of Knight's focusing on Indiana and the surrounding states for 29 years?    Do you think he was afraid to fly or something?   Or maybe he knew he didn't have to leave the area?   And I'm the one not paying attention??  How many times did Knight talk about kids understanding Indiana Basketball and all of the traditions and expectations around it when they came to play there?   How many times did he talk about recruiting kids who understood how to play basketball?  (That's a quote)   He meant exactly what I said earlier.  The game vs. the sport.  The phrase "high basketball IQ" was invented for Knight.  It just didn't exist then; but that's what he recruited, and he didn't have to leave the area to build great teams with players who had it, and Crean doesn't either.  He could easily have gone to New York or DC's playgrounds and recruited better athletes, but he chose to stay here.  And you don't think there was a reason?  Good Lord....you're questioning MY understanding, Josh?   It's not about refusing anything....   I understand perfectly that coaching matters, and very few have been as critical of Crean as I have.   I also understand the list of kids from Indiana alone Crean has missed on.  Take a look and then tell me what you think we'd have been had we kept 1/3rd of them.  Why do we need Stanford Robinson, for example?   You really don't think part of the problem in the last 15 years has been kids not understanding expectations or what it means to play at Indiana?   You don't think Bracey Wright, some all star from Texas, or Marshall Strickland from Maryland, or the parade of kids Davis and Crean have brought in here don't have something to do with the downfall and lack of success in the program?  Really?      You think it's coincidence that the two most successful teams we've had at Indiana in the last 15 years (2002 and 2013) were led by kids like Jeffries, Coverdale, Fife, Odle, Zeller, and Hulls?    Yes...I know there were good or even great players from other places..Oladipo and Moye in particular....but look at what followed the departure of those kids.   (Again, it's about focus on the area.  Not a complete blanket statement of all kids should be from here)  And yes, I also understand Yogi.  It has to be more than one kid and it has to be a focus on how you play and how much you help other kids get better.  Wright and Strickland replace Coverdale, Fife, Jeffries, etc...and Indiana finishes below .500, tanking for 4 years.   And we know what's happened the last 2 years.  I know we got Blackmon, but look at the kids we've missed on the last 3 years making us settle for kids who have no clue where they are and don't care....like Vonleh or Hoetzel.   Look, I like Johnson.  I just don't ever want to hear a kid say he doesn't understand where he is.   Got it?   Same tactic.  Understand?   Or will you refuse, as you asked me?   I think you're wrong if you believe we don't need a local focus, and I think your statement of "never going to read all of that nonsense" is lazy.   It's nonsense because you don't agree with it, right?   Is your comfort zone really that difficult to break?  If you're happy with the way things are going, God bless you.   Not sure why you and a couple of others keep bringing up old business.   Is there a reason?   Explain what you mean by "same old 'Friend."   I'd really like to know what that means.  You said it...explain it.  Do I have to agree with you or somehow categorize myself as the unwashed?  (Heck, you said "I bet you refuse to....same old 'friend," so you didn't even give me a chance before you made that comment.   Interesting, indeed)  Is my opinion somehow not welcome because you disagree with it or don't see things the same way?   Did I ruin your neighborhood because I have strong opinions that aren't popular sometimes?   Are you trying to make me leave or convince people of something?   Do you only want to read stuff you agree with?   What's the fun in that?   Seriously.  What did that mean?

Cute little animals aside....I am still shaking my head at the guy who thought this was about where kids were born...   I don't have any interest in stirring the pot or anything like that.  You don't need to make comments about people knocking things down or not challenging me.  That's the fun part of this...the debate of it.  I do find the squirrel an interesting touch.     I don't need anyone to agree with me, but I will simply ask you and anyone else to look hard at what we have and at the situation.   Look at more than face value of things.   You can cherry pick a couple of years when Butler was rebuilding, but look at their record since Crean came to IU.  Look at the direction of Purdue.  Look at Izzo's heavy and almost exclusive recruiting of the local area (by the way, you seem to pigeon hole what I'm saying into "Indiana."  That's not at all what I've done.  I believe 100% that kids who understand the local conference and local rivalries have a leg up on kids who don't....and Johnson and Hoetzel didn't.   They both said they didn't.   And we finished 7th in the Big Ten.       At the end of the day, I think kids from this area are far better at the "game" of basketball than kids from the east coast..by and large.  The "game" is different than the "sport."  There are plenty of ball-skill and athletic guys from all over.  The best fundamental players in high school (and this is something college coaches talk about all the time) come from right around here - again, by and large.   There are good fundamental players and superstars everywhere, but we're not getting those players.   We're getting Robinson, Priller, April, Muniru, Michele, etc.  Vonleh was a physical beast....but not sound fundamentally, and he was interested only in showcasing himself for the NBA.   No matter where a kid's from, you have to get the right kids.  Hollowell was a lazy, selfish player in high school.  I personally think Patterson would have been pretty solid, but he was a grade issue, not a problem recruit.   Davis had what amounted to half a joint in his room....and was injured playing a joke on friends on Halloween.  I don't necessarily think he was necessarily a "problem recruit."  He screwed up, and had he done so withOUT several other episodes on this team, he'd have had to do some community service, run some stairs, and we'd all love him.  He'd be the story of the year.  His problem was screwing up at the worst possible time....not being a problem recruit.   Answer me this.  Regardless of coaches and coaching ability.  I clearly don't think Crean's very good, but I didn't think Davis was very good either, yet he took a team to the Final Four....which happened to be led by some of the top players from this area over the prior couple of years and two Indiana Mr. Basketball's (Coverdale and Jeffries).   You really don't think kids from this area (or the area of any great program) understand the traditions and expectations of those programs?       The list of players you named is impressive, but look a little deeper.   Bryant has not had his first practice at Indiana.   He counts for nothing. Johnson said he didn't understand the traditions were when he got here and so far his best finish is 7th place in the Big Ten and he's 0-2 against Purdue Vonleh quit on the team and his team finished 8th in the conference and missed the post season.  He was all about Noah Vonleh Sheehey's one chance to lead a team and be anything more than a role player with great players around him ended with a 7-11 Big Ten record and missed post season Rivers was bad.  Horrible decisions, couldn't shoot, and couldn't guard. Holt is a solid role player whose best finish is 7th place in the Big Ten Williams is terrific.  Love the kid.  Never said all players should be from here. I said we needed to prioritize the local kids, and we're not right now. Oladipo - same as above.  Love him, too. Robinson?  Seriously?  He is an awful basketball player at the D1 level.  What other kid can you name who tried to change shooting hands after his freshman season?  He's good enough to play big minutes on an 8th place Big Ten team.   Mandeville and Eggers were Dakich recruits.  The whole story there has been well documented, but Knight handed the recruiting keys to Dakich in 1994 or so because Dakich wanted to groom himself for a head job, and Knight went hunting.  He never visited those kids or saw them play.  He accepted Dakich's wishes, and we got what we got.  When Knight re-engaged recruiting-wise, he almost immediately got Fife, Odle, Jeffries, Coverdale, Recker, Haston, and Moye.  Just one of those kids lived further than a 4 hour drive from Bloomington.  Lindeman gets a bad rap...he was no all star, but he was better than many give him credit for,  We'd have sure used him a year ago.   Mujezinovic was a JUCO kid who filled an immediate need for a season or two.   Not a good example of Knight's missing.      What I'm saying is all about the game vs. the sport and what has historically succeeded at Indiana.   AAU has made basketball worse, not better.  Ask any high school or college coach.  But....kids from around here generally understand the game better than kids from other places where basketball isn't taught the same way and isn't in the fiber of the area.  Baseball and football rule the south.  Lacrosse and hockey have taken over the north and east, and then you have soccer which is the devil everywhere in my opinion.   Basketball is still the top game around here, and kids from around here are widely pursued for a reason.  You don't have to agree, and you can post a zoo full of pictures if you'd like.   But ask yourself why it is that New Jersey, Maryland, Virginia, New York, etc. aren't  hot recruiting areas for the teams that win the Big Ten every year, and those same schools DO recruit the midwest heavily?.   Would it be that Crean's  trying to out think the room, like he does all the time?   Can't see the forest through the trees?  Missing what's right in front of his face trying to find that kid everyone else misses on?  All to prove....what?   

Because of where they were born?????   Seriously?   That's what you think the point is?    Might want to try a new path.....that's the wrong one.

If you're okay with the results Crean has achieved with the recruiting priorities he's put in place, I don't know what to tell you.  I didn't cite Swanigan.  You did.     Stanford Robinson Tim Priller Bawa Muniru Peter Jurkin Max Hoetzel Jeremiah April Luke Fischer (good player, bad fit) On and on   There's a lot of wasted space on the roster.  Straw man argument?  We're 0-3 against Purdue the last 2 seasons, and we recruited two kids (Hoetzel and Johnson) who said they didn't know or understand the traditions at Indiana before they came here.   Think Purdue has that problem?   They play harder than we do and their kids all understand the Big Ten.  We've finished 8th and 7th in Crean's 6th and 7th seasons.   You don't think the kids we have might be a reason?   Again, you're kidding yourself.  You can call it strawman or anything you want.  I disagree with you and I believe absolutely that in-state and in-area kids should be prioritzed over out of area kids.  For 29 seasons, Bob Knight focused almost exclusively on 3 states.  Indiana, Illinois, and Ohio.   All he did was win 11 Big Ten titles and 3 national championships.  I've seen the point made that it's a new time now and that won't work anymore....talk about an argument with no basis.  History's on my side..as is the list of Indiana kids which have gone elsewhere and succeeded.   That argument is the same to me as the one that says "we didn't want him, anyway" to every kid who picks another school or the one that says because a kid says yes to Indiana, he's the next great thing (Mike White, Muniru, Bracey Wright, Marshall Strickland, etc) whether he can play or not.    Been around too long to just spew this stuff without thinking about it....My opinion is in-area recruiting has suffered because it's not a high enough priority and we're missing great local kids in search of Lord knows what in Maryland or Virginia.  Why??     If not Purdue, what about Butler?  Their team had 9 kids from Indiana or surrounding states plus one from Missouri.  They have 2 more coming next season and Brunk the year after that.  Look at the direction of both programs.   Butler just beat Texas and almost Notre Dame (top 10 team) in the NCAA tournament.   They've been a consistent winner for several years.   Michigan State had 16 kids on their roster last season including walk ons, and 13 of them were from Indiana, Michigan, Ohio, or Illinois.   One from Wyoming is someone named Colby Wollenman, who never plays.   Tum Tum is from the Bahamas...an anomaly.   There's a reason they (MSU) recruit Indiana heavily every year and a reason they win every year.  WIsconsin recruits almost exclusively in their home area and every kid on that roster knows and buys into their program because they understand it.  Think their winning all the time is a coincidence???   What is it about those two schools (the class of the Big Ten) that makes you think Indiana can do things differently and have the same level of success?   The reality is Indiana cannot.  No way Indiana can keep missing as many local players as they have and win consistently.   As I've said, if you believe they can, you're kidding yourself, and there's a reason Purdue has a very local strategy.     Those of you who argue against the importance of prioritizing local recruiting, on what do you base your argument other than you don't agree.  That's fine, but prioritizing the east coast and taking people (mediocre players) from all over isn't working.   I don't ever want to read that a player arrives at Indiana and doesn't understand where he is.   Just makes it that much harder to win conference games when other kids care more than ours do...and I'm here to tell you unequivocally that Noah Vonleh - from the east coast - didn't care about Indiana one bit.  Lottery pick goes 17-15 and misses the post season.  The chemistry matters. 

I know this topic has been beaten to death...doesn't make the problem any less real.  If you think Crean can succeed at a high level at Indiana without significant in-state success, you're kidding yourself.  There is no evidence to support that, and as long as Purdue DOES have in-state success, you'll always have your #1 rival caring more than our kids do, and that matters.  The reason we're not having in-state success is simply that it's not a high priority for Crean, and he views in-area kids like any others.  I think that's a huge mistake.  

9 substance arrests since the start of 2014 is a problem.   A systemic problem.   Character matters.   The kind of role model a coach is matters.   Either we're not recruiting the right kind of kid, or the coaches aren't doing their homework.   This is not happening on this scale at other places, and if we want to maintain any integrity at all, enough is enough.    Excusing it by saying it happens everywhere does not solve the problem, and is not correct.   What has happened at Indiana in the last 19 months certainly does not happen everywhere.   How are leaders being held accountable?   I don't see it.  What I do see, like I said, is systemic failure.

At some point, and I wish I knew when that was, Fred Glass has to be accountable for the BS going on within his athletic department.    His seat HAS to be getting very, very hot.  Is anyone in his office asking what the hell is going on and why we keep seeing arrests and drug problems throughout his most visible entities?    I see no accountability with admin or coaches.    Enough is enough.

Advice to the people in charge and anyone who might support it :   You cannot put toothpaste back in the tube.  $700K is WWWAAAAAYYYY too much money to offer an 18 year old kid; and enticing kids to become McD's all Americans will be awful for high school basketball and high school coaches.   There will be unintended consequences to this which nobody can see now, and it smells of Vince McMahon.    That's not what anyone wants basketball to be.

I kind of go the other way.   Trent Richardson was very...um...."patient."   And he was a dismal failure.  The Colts need a guy who just hits the hole, makes one cut, and goes.  Coleman can do that.   I see the Murray comparison, however TC is taller, isn't he?    I think Murray's about 5'11" and Coleman 6'1", but either way, I see the comparison.  I also think Coleman runs a bit more vertically than Murray does.  I also love TC because he's "low mileage."   Wilson didn't ever over-work him, and he's had few carries compared to some other highly rated backs.

Tevin Coleman reminds me of Eric Dickerson.  He's a one-cut guy, runs vertically, has break away speed, and he's about the same size.  Now...that's not a comparison.  It's a reminder.  I'm not saying Tevin Coleman is an NFL hall of famer....but he reminds me of a back who is.  And he has very low miles, compared to some other backs out there.   He'd look awfully good in a horse shoe if you ask me.

As nuts as this sounds, we have the option to go "big" if we need to.   Yogi, JBJ, Troy, Hanner, Bryant.   That's some serious length...Not much in the way of perimeter defense, but if we run up against a...Purdue, for example; this would all but take away the advantages they used to beat us.      I think the more likely lineup is the one given by the OP.  Yogi, JBJ, Johnson, Williams, Bryant; but at least we have options, and I think Morgan is going to make a case for himself, too.

I'd heard Coach Moren was difficult to be around, and you can be that way if kids will play for you and you win.   But this is reflective of many things, and as much as this needs to be about the WBB program, Glass' finger prints are on the hire, so he's culpable for the way it plays out.

Those are the ones that make sense, no doubt.

I actually have to give the guy (Crean) credit.  He's kept his head down during a time when it would have been easy not to.   Nice job by him to get Bryant, convince him to avoid the noise, and add a needed player to the program.    

Nice get.  Anybody know anything relative to who goes to make room for him?

Just shows what a complete mess basketball has become.   Now shoe companies have more influence over where a kid goes to school than any coach, any business school, or any high school counselor, etc.    If coaches want to get out of college basketball, this is why.   AAU basketball has done far more harm than good, and those shoe reps (many of them without much college education and rough around the edges) have become the enemy of building a program.     To me, this is why the Wichita State's, the Gonzaga's, the Northern Iowa's, etc have had so much success.  They can recruit kids who will be seniors.  They can recruit students and people who care about the quality with which they represent themselves.   There are a few major schools (Wisconsin, Michigan State, North Carolina to some extent, etc) who can recruit that same kind of kid; and they seem to "be there" every year.    Then you have Kentucky who bucks every trend and just brings in the cream of every crop.      And then you have the whores.    Oklahoma, LSU, Florida State, West Virginia, and teams like that who'll take any great player who'll say yes and care very little for building a basketball program because football will always be first.  Those schools always get a McD's All American or two, a top 50 recruit or two.  And I always wonder why.....before I then remember :  'ah yes...shoes."  Or "ah yes...an AAU coach with some affiliation."   And I hate it for basketball, and I hate it for the kids because I think they get the short end of that stick.   So many really good players are never truly developed and end up falling way short of their potential, due in large part to their whoring out because of shoe companies.    And I am now off my soap box.

For what it's worth, I just spent 30 minutes reading the Scout site, and I probably read 50 of his posts.   What is it you find offensive?   Something in the past?  I didn't see even a syllable that wouldn't be welcomed here.   Surely if he were a problem for anyone, it would show up at some point, right?   Maybe I'm missing something and maybe the problems were with particular posters, but there was nothing in what I read that would suggest "VERY" abrasive, or even mildly so.   What is it you say people would grow tiresome of?

A passionate guy who seems to be shy about really saying what he knows...if anything    I would bet nobody knows anything yet, and I'm sure he, like everyone, has ideas or sources who give sniffs of what's going on.   That board and this one are the only reasonable places to discuss anything, though.    I never had any dealings with GoColts, but he does sort of have the pulse on that other board.   When he posts, people reply.   I've seen lots of criticism of him and I've seen a few people who really enjoy him.  Kind of like Knight.  I like Bob on that board, too.   I do wish people would unite because I also love Terry Hutchens.  That guy deserves better.  Maybe we get those three to come over here?