Old Friend

Has anyone said we don't want those kids?

Are you paying attention to what he's done since he got here?? IU needed Cody Zeller, but you HAVE to know (and be objective about it) that Indiana was in a far different position then than they are now. Come on, man. That's a bad example. Romeo chose Indiana over Kansas. A program with plenty of stability. Phinisee had lots of offers too. So did Hunter. Fitzner had plenty of suitors. Not sure why you're acting as though Indiana is some broken mess and the sky is falling? But you're wrong about his job. That's a part of his job. His job is to be the custodian of one of the most visible sports entities in the country. His job is to win. How he does that is not up to you. It's up to him. I gave many examples earlier of programs that went a long way and won conference championships without the benefit of 5* recruits. But okay, I'll play (and because I've been close to this process, I feel like I have a good handle on it). From the perspective of a recruit : Indiana has terrific facilities whether you believe that or not. One of the largest on campus arenas in the country. Their conference has its own network, and Indiana is still a bell cow in that conference. We're on national TV all the time. We've got several former players in the NBA; one of whom has come back to the state and is in the same league as Reggie Miller and Peyton Manning from a PR standpoint; we have dozens of engaged, loyal alumni players who will do anything for the kids and a few of those - maybe as many as any school in the country - are or have been NBA COACHES; we have a top flight business school; plenty of money; and the best technology you'll find anywhere. Leave alone the tradition and the titles you don't think matter. They do; but let's say they don't. Based solely on what you know so far about Archie Miller; why is your attitude so negative? His system is proven....just not here yet. Why are we recruiting at a higher level than Purdue or Iowa? Programs with coaches who have been there a long time? Maybe tradition DOES matter. Or maybe recruits DO see Indiana the way you want them to.

Tell me... Where's Vonleh now? He wasn't that great. Calipari's teams have double digit losses 3 of the last 6 years and 9 in another year. His way of doing things isn't what it used to be and I have no interest in rooting for laundry. You can have Noah Vonleh and Devin Booker. If you think the fan base (and especially the alums) would warm quickly, you have no idea where you are. Go, Cats go.

This line of thinking is laughable. We got Romeo. We also have a top 10 class. And a pipeline to dozens of highly rated players. Why is this one important? At all? Kids want to be at Indiana or they don't. We'll field a very competitive team for the foreseeable future whether Brooks comes to Indiana or not. Who needs any particular recruit? How many 5 star recruits does Wisconsin get? They've not been bad. How many'd Loyola Chicago have? Oregon or South Carolina the year before last? Wichita State? Butler? Help me.... Why do we "need" Brooks?

One kid will never make or break our team or program. If he comes, great. If he doesn't? Go IU. We'll be just fine.

If you want to "win" the way Kentucky does, you're not going to find many allies here. Completely different conference, culture, and situation. I have zero interest in going about things that way; and I'd bet 95% of Indiana fans/alums agree with me. Indiana has a roster now capable of playing with, and beating any team in the country. We've got a 5* kid, a couple of 4* kids; a top 10 class, and a pipeline. And CAM has been here less than 20 months.

Then we agree. Sort of. He's average. I think a bit below. And I think his inability to hit receivers played a significant role in the loss today; and his arm limits our playbook. Losing to Iowa, OSU, and MSU were predictable and no, I don't blame him exclusively or even much for those losses. My critique of him is more toward the DeBord comments because you just can't call the kind of plays you can with a QB who has a strong arm; and today made that very obvious. I made that comment after he made a throw on an out pattern that arrived to the receiver who got hit immediately. Penix made the same throw earlier, and the receiver had time to catch and turn to make a guy miss. The ball took longer to get there from Ramsey; and it was plain to see. He missed several open guys again; and just keeps hitting his check downs because he can't hit tight windows. Penix can. And did. He has a very weak arm for a Big Ten QB, and I think it limits what our offense can really do. Penix was not great, but you can see what an arm can provide to this offense. Some have been down on DeBord, and I thought the simple eyeball test today clearly showed the difference and exposed Ramsey's weakness. He is a decent game manager; but I think he struggles to make the right read on RPO's and gets happy feet too quickly. And you know I think his arm's weak and limits our offense. One throw in the 3rd quarter really exposed that. I'm sorry Penix got hurt...Ramsey's our guy, so let's see if he can win two more. Today, we should have won. Too many mistakes.

Josh, 2017, and others? I rest my case. The ball takes an extra half second or more to get to receivers; and Ramsey's just not that accurate despite what his stats say. I honestly don't know how you can watch him and disagree with that. He is so limited and just can't make down field throws consistently; so his yards per attempt are among the worst in the country. But...way too many : Boneheaded mistakes Bad decisions Bad calls Bad penalties You can't beat even a decent team playing that way

This is laughable. And this is why I've said you're biased and not objective. Penix can hit tight windows and can get the ball to receivers even if there's a defender close. Ramsey can't. So he hits check down after check down; only hitting down field receivers who are either not covered or with back shoulder throws. Penix looks rusty; and I'm sure he is. You would be too if you hadn't played in 4-5 weeks. But the difference in the two is very obvious. Your comment "Ramsey had us in FG range" made me laugh out loud. Your bar is very low.

No offense, but I doubt anyone here has a clue what the backup plan might be.

Which way? We're as capable of losing 45-10 as we are keeping it close.

PSU 42 Indiana 14

I think we're in agreement on most if not all. Maybe not saying it the same way. Personally, I think (and there are a couple who will pounce on this) our situation at QB is so limiting to what our offense can do. Ramsey is at best a game manager. He's not a true threat to run like Lewis was or even like Diamont. He CAN get yards on occasion; but he has happy feet and he's slow. We can't get the ball downfield consistently, so without his ability to run, our offense is just so damned restricted. On top of it, I saw him miss (and by miss, I mean didn't even see) wide open receivers in the secondary on Saturday, opting instead for simple check downs. Ramsey is just not a guy we'll win with. And his backup is a true freshman. I really think Ramsey is a huge factor in our offense's limitations; although I know he has a small fan club here. Losing Westbrook last season cost us a bowl bid, I think. We were awful against Purdue, otherwise we'd have been in one and this discussion is different. Losing Cole Gest this year has hurt as well. I am not at all "100% in" on Tom Allen. He had 2 penalties on HIM Saturday; and he needs to improve as much as anyone in that locker room. Our second half adjustments have been lacking or non-existent; and I haven;'t yet seen the improvement I'd like to; especially on defense which is supposed to be his specialty. We're not a disciplined team, either; and that disappoints me most of all. We're not going to out-talent Iowa; so we have to maintain discipline and win all of the intangibles. Saturday, we won none of them.

Really? You really believe this? Indiana will be a top 10 basketball team this year and the program is absolutely on the way back. Baseball is doing just fine. As is soccer. IU has spent millions on facilities and upgrades; and you HAVE to know Assembly Hall for what it is. It's still one of the (if not THE) largest on-campus arenas in the country; and Cook Hall was built many years ago. Women's basketball is worlds better than it was a decade ago. You have to understand why football just won't ever be the bell cow at Indiana, and it won't. Spending money there has a ceiling and will as long as we are in this division. Illinois doesn't have to play Michigan, Penn State, and Ohio State every year. The deck is stacked in their favor because of their division. It's not the same situation. I know...same conference; but save Wisconsin, there's no consistency in that division. Why NOT Illinois? The answer to that question is vastly different than why NOT Indiana?

I'm with you on Hep, but his goal was "play 13," and we can do that under Allen. At least I think we can. His recruiting is on par and even better than what Hep's was; and the goal is still 6-8 wins every year because that's IU's ceiling barring lightening in a bottle every now and then. Even if we hired an up and comer, the odds of his staying if and when he has success are minimal. Again, I don't mean to be defeatist; but we are who we are.

Who? Name your guy. Who would come to Indiana? If you don't buy it...sell it. We are in the BIG East division with OSU, Penn State, and Michigan. 4th is our ceiling barring lightening in a bottle; and I don't care if people say that's defeatist....it's realist. Those places seat 100,000+. They are all football blue bloods. We are not competing with them on a consistent basis. So "turn around" means...what? We get to consistent 7-8 wins instead of consistent 5-6? I'm not saying you're wrong; but "big bucks" is a relative discussion. What are you getting for "big bucks?" You're already getting huge money from bowls because of the alliance with the Big Ten and their bowl allotment, so the payoff there is negligible even if you make a bowl. Attendance isn't going to climb that much; so what does IU really get for that investment of "big bucks?" And what guarantee do you have that anything would change? You can go all the way back to Howard Schnellenberger and count examples from there. "Names" don't always pan out. Hell, we hired Cam Cameron who was a very successful NFL coordinator and he never went to a bowl here despite having one of the best offenses in the country. Indiana is hamstrung by the stupidity of the divisions. Purdue is in a MUCH better situation than we are because they can easily set up a schedule to win 8-9 games on a consistent basis. That's much harder at Indiana, like it or not.

But the tailgate lots were packed.

When a QB has no real help, he feels like he has to do it all and make plays he otherwise might not. Two of Luck's INT's today were not on him. He's had problems his entire career, but the fact still remains his stats through his first 5 seasons are among the best in NFL history....with VERY little help. TY Hilton is a complete diva who has been incredibly inconsistent. Other than TY, name another even average receiver. I'm not an apologist. He's made some really bad throws/decisions, but when a QB feels alone, he feels like he needs to play hero. Therefore, I'm more willing than some to forgive days like today. Hell, his first two throws were blatant drops; and Rogers, who is supposedly the #1 right now has had this issue his entire career.

This (in bold) is the most meaningless stat in sports. Not sure why you think that matters given he's either last or next to last in the Big Ten in yards per attempt. I've defended DeBord because he has a resume that warrants it. And I still say his play calling is limited because Ramsey is not a good QB. Being there live, I saw WR's running open and Ramsey throwing to check downs. So he completes a 3 yard pass instead of a 25 yard pass. Time after time. Laughable. (I also laugh at "always bring it up," except lately. Contradictions entertain me.) His offense set records at Tennessee. That's a fact. Who else does IU get? We had Cam Cameron, and even he never won more than 5 games here. Kevin Wilson was just fine, but some people didn't like his personality, so he's gone. Who's coming to IU better than DeBord? You can b*tch, but do you have a solution? I watched Ramsey today specifically. He was terrible. Godawful. Even my teenaged boys noticed. (And it's the same 3-4 of you who consistently defend him, so I know I'm talking to a wall) The defensive woes have nothing to do with the Ramsey discussion. He's not adequate. He is below average, he makes consistently poor decisions, he is inaccurate (and yes, despite his completion %; he completed at least 5 balls today which were soft throws or behind receivers which went for little gain because the throws were poor); and he still cannot hit tight windows, see the field well, or throw it down the field consistently well. And your last sentence.... When did I say "it's Ramsey's fault?" I'll wait while you find that somewhere. Or maybe you're creating an argument so you can make points against it? Well done.

Then you haven't been reading. You don't think his limitations create some of the limited play calling? He's got a below average arm. We have speed and talent at WR; and we have guys open all the time. We had guys running free in the secondary today, and Ramsey checked down to 3rd/4th options routinely. Ramsey not hitting (or even throwing the ball to) open guys isn't on DeBord. Neither is his making the consistent wrong read on RPO's.

Am I defending him? I just don't think we're very good. But he's not the one who misses open receivers and quickly elects to check down. He's not the one making the wrong read on seemingly every RPO. He's not the one whose throws take an extra second to get there. He's not the one who can't throw a receiver open. He's not the one who's now missing even short throws.

Go back a few game threads. There are 3-4 guys who swear his problems are DeBord's play calling and that Ramsey is a good down field passer.

Sorta depends on who you ask around here, but watching him live today? He's limited, and was terrible today. (Guess that pie on my face didn't last long) He missed ...10+ wide open receivers 15-20 yards down field electing to make shorter throws which seem to be getting less accurate by the week; he makes the wrong read on seemingly every RPO (and the peanut gallery will blame DeBord); and he gets happy feet entirely too often. I don't care if you complete 31 of 42 throws if 10 are in garbage time and 10 more are less than 5 yards.

1) You think Tom Allen doesn't want to create a nationally respected program? 2) Indiana has spent tens of millions on facilities. They rank among the most modern in the country. 3) Do you really,...in your heart believe Indiana can compete with OSU, Michigan, and Penn State on a consistent basis? If you don't, then I'd submit #4 in a Big Ten division is a long way from nationally respected. 4) Who are you going to get? Who's your guy? Who would come here? 5) You just said a bad program will bring in $50 million, but you want to shut the program down? 6) Every bad football school wants what you say you want, and they rarely get it. There's a reason. 7) Part of Indiana's problem now is talent related and more is discipline related. Yep, some is on Tom Allen, but who is going to come to Indiana with your premise of nationally respected when I think you're implying above your ceiling is 4th in the division?

Hate it because I'll be there, but Iowa 38 Indiana 23