MartintheMopMan

How many years does he need to play decent football? He had a better QB behind him. It happens. It continues to not undermine my entire point. Wilson did not build this team from scratch. His record is his record.

I just realized my entry was pretty unlikely. I mean, 98 points? How would they even score that?   I'll change it to 97-21 in favor of the Harbaugh Killers. I think there are like 8 different combinations of points to get to 97 whereas there was only 1 to get to 98. That's playing smart.

You wouldn't consider Roberson, Latimer, Wynn, or Bolser recruiting successes? I think it's disingenuous to ignore the Lynch recruits who ended up drafted or to say it was all because Wilson developed them. That's like saying Mike Davis is responsible for Jared Jefferies.   And, who cares about Lynch beyond the team he left behind? The original point I responded to said Coach Kevin Wilson should get leeway for his first couple of years because he built the team from scratch. All I did was cite the pieces of the team already pre-built for Coach Wilson. It is verifiably untrue to say Kevin Wilson started with nothing and had to build this team from scratch.   What I originally responded to was "Most competent coaches get it done within a few years provided they have the pieces in place. Wilson built this team from scratch, so he was given the benefit of the doubt for an extended period". Please don't read some argument that Lynch was a better coach into this.

Count for... what exactly? How often do we ever count Lynch's seasons for any reason? Does Lynch deserve the credit for coaching that team to that win record? Absolutely. Heck, I think Mike Davis deserves a lot more credit than he gets for 2002. We've seen what bad coaching can do to a good roster.   But, it's also a different point than I made. No one ever says Lynch built that team from scratch. Someone said Kevin Wilson built his successes from scratch, it's way up in my original comment. I'm merely pointing out this is untrue, the foundation and support for Kevin Wilson's success including very good offensive recruits, was already there when he started coaching. He built on Coach Lynch's recruiting successes and inherited a team capable of going at least 3-9 or 4-8. People compared his first year to Coach Crean's and I believe this is inappropriate. Coach Crean had to immediately build a team and recruit 5 scholarship players in his first 2 months to even field a complete team for his first year.   Had Kevin Wilson had to go out and find half of his team, I would agree he had built his team from scratch. But, he inherited a fair number of high skill players.

    I don't think it's as misleading as saying CKW built this team from scratch. He received a fairly solid, albeit young, team capable of going more than 1-11 based on recruiting done by previous coaches. The core group he inherited, especially including people like Tre, Shane, Cody, and Bolser, would end up carrying the team on their backs until the big QB controversy. Plus, it's not like Tre was the only QB he had. Wright-Baker was average to slightly better than average.   There were a lot of reasons we went 1-11 that year, but because CKW had just been hired and hadn't had a chance to build the team from scratch isn't one of them. I don't agree that we can just discard that year like we do with Crean's first three.

Too true. Don't forget that one of the players who wasn't ranked very highly is the next Oladipo.   But, have to be excited about something right? Other schools get football to distract them.

If there was anything it would have leaked already.

That would be great, it's like 3x more expensive to ship a tube.   Though, it makes the 7.50 for shipping from IU even more outrageous. That's like... a dollar to ship.

When I get one I'll get an extra and send it your way. Probably tube unless it's prohibitively expensive.   And if someone wants to send one first, don't let me stop you.

That's the folding option. I mean, they're surely about the same as the football poster right? They sent that to me in a manila envelope folded in quarters.

I assume you want it rolled not folded?

I don't mean to keep building the intellectual argument against Wilson, there just is a good one. Personally, I don't think we're going to hire a better coach no matter what and we should be resigned to being at the bottom of the Big Ten.   Anyway...   Coach Wilson inherited a team that was just about where he is now. I know there is always some turmoil in switching coaches, but it's not really comparable to the dumpster fire Crean inherited. Wilson came into Roberson, Wynn, and Latimer and posted a 1-11. Bill Lynch had a 5-7 season his last year. 

  I know you're not making the argument. But, I'll just point out recruiting has actually slipped over the past three years. 42nd ranked class in 2013, 48th in 2014, 51st in 2015, (and it's still pretty darn early but...) 75th in 2016.

We hear about the defense taking a big step forward every year. We make some incremental steps maybe, but at this rate it will be another decade before we have a good defense. Here we are ranked 83rd in defense, 91st last year, 97th the year before, 114th the year before, 119th the year before so, at the moment we at least look like we're improving but not by much (and we are barely in to Big Ten play when our D will really be challenged).    It's the exact problem IUBB has; you can't win consistently if your entire game plan is score and hope the opposing offense screws up.

I don't know that the situations are as comparable as you make them out to be.   Purdue didn't get rid of Tiller, he retired after a bad season. He was wildly successful at Purdue, missing only two bowls his entire tenure and reshaping the landscape of college offense. He had a long 11-year career and turned a team who had had only two winning records in 18 years into a perennial contender. And did so immediately, he was in a bowl his first year.   CKW is no Joe Tiller. Very few coaches are Joe Tiller, so we're already on the wrong foot trying to compare the two. CKW has had zero bowl games and 6 Big Ten victories in his tenure btw. I mean, they aren't even close. But, I'll roll with it.   Purdue then made a horrible hiring decision in Danny Hope because he had been Tiller's OC and Tiller had a great offense. Danny Hope was not head coach material. He ended up bringing down the whole program, and was ultimately let go because he couldn't hack it (despite two bowl games in his final two seasons). Danny Hope is actually pretty similar to CKW in his focus and style. He's also proof Tiller wasn't forced out, because you don't force someone out then hire their OC.   Purdue decided they weren't done with horrible hiring decisions and hired Hazell. This hire was like hiring the coach of some 14 seed who has a good first couple of rounds in the NCAA Tourny. Hazell peaked at exactly the right moment and Purdue bit hard. Hazell had minimal experience (mostly a position coach), but he took over a decent Kent State team and led them to a mediocre season. Then, the next year, he took that Kent State team and dominated the MAC in the regular season and got some national attention (lost all his postseason games though). Purdue hired him and... there they are.   So, as long as we aren't monumentally stupid in our hiring decisions, we should end up better than Purdue did.   I mean, when are people going to learn you never hire a guy just because he coached a single good season?

We all are. But, that's like, the prototypical Indiana football loss, and not even the first time (coughMinnesota2013cough). It keeps coming down to silly coachable mistakes. And Toth. A new coach could find a new punter. Just pick someone from the stands.

The great thing about IU football though, is it really isn't a dumpster fire. We're definitely bad, but we're just bad because of weak recruiting, low depth, and poor play-calling. All totally fixable with a new coach. Even the pieces we already have are young and decent for our abilities. This is nothing like what Crean walked into across the parking lot, it's a pretty functional team that needs discipline and coaching.    We have low expectations and get really excited when something good happens. And when a coach uses us as a stepping stone to a better program we'll be sad but totally get it. It's not a bad gig.

And maybe let people know the "I'm a Dog" tweet was not recruiting related.

I didn't see that in the article, though I only half read it. He's making around $500k? Wow, wait, CKW only makes 1.2?   If he's as hot as they say, I doubt we'll be his only offer and may have to go higher. Though, I'm not going to get started complaining about how tight our purse strings are again.   CKW has three ways this season can play out for him. He wins a couple games, gets a bowl, stays forever. He loses like usual, but basketball season starts and we all forget he exists. Penn State fans win out and James Franklin is fired and replaced by CKW (alternatively, he may end up as an OC at another big school).   It's pretty much win-win-win. He can stay here and keep working this job into a better HC position or go to a football school and get paid just as much as he does now (Penn State doesn't release assistant salaries, but Bob Shoop reportedly makes around 1.3) and later leverage back out into an HC position.

Actually, this is the rule that got UNC caught. The NCAA suddenly realized there were a lot of humans in "obedience class" than expected. And the class took place in "Petco Hall"

I agree with your assessment. But the institutional unwillingness to pay top dollar for a coach is one of the perpetuators of the cycle. This pressure also comes from alums who would whine if we had a football coach make more than a basketball coach because "we aren't good anyway" and "we're a basketball school".

Jelly. I still have zero.

Thanks. I thought that was the case, but worried there may be a difference between NFL and CFB and didn't want to look stupid.

No sarcasm at all. Expecting IU football to win Big Ten games and be in a bowl is certainly lofty when compared with our history. We have been to 9 bowls in 120 years and won 6 Big Ten games in CKW's tenure. So, expecting a bowl season when 92.5% of our seasons have not been bowl seasons and expecting a Big Ten win when 81% of our Big Ten games have been losses (or 70% over our entire history) is pretty lofty.

That's where you're wrong. Not only did I see it, but so did the NCAA Committee on Rules who shortly thereafter passed the "Buddy Resolution" with the stated purpose of "filling the donut hole in sports" adding a requirement explicitly preventing the play of "non-human persons".   It also applies to corporations (at least the ones who haven't already used their eligibility).