BGleas

I have no idea what Vandy has. But, Juwan Morgan is not a sure thing to be impactful as a freshmen. This isn't a 5* recruit. If this was Zimmerman or Maker I'd agree that PT isn't a factor, those guys start from day 1. But Morgan, if he comes to IU, will be battling Troy Williams, Devin Davis, Emmitt Holt, and to a lesser extent Hoetzel for minutes at the 4. What if Vandy has a open spot at the 4 in their lineup? The allure to start as a freshmen could be a big factor for him. I don't know, I don't know what his priorities are. But he isn't the type of recruit that can come in and expect time ahead of most of the aforementioned guys. Again, I'm by no means saying it's the only factor, but to dismiss it is not being realistic. Playing time matters to any player.

First, show me where I said it's the "end all be all"? It is a factor whether you like it or not. As someone else said, every kid is different and has different factors. But to dismiss playing time as one factor is simply naive by you. I'll take it from personal experience. I was recruited by low level D1 schools and D2 schools and chose a D2 school. One, not the only, but one factor was I knew I could go D2 and compete to start as a freshmen (I ended up being a 4-year starter), but at the D1 level I'd probably have to fight for regular minutes by my junior year.

I would assume playing time would be a factor. While we definitely need help on the interior, at the same time we have Hanner with 1 more year, Devin with 2 more, Troy Williams with potentially 2 more and Holt with 3 more, once Howard would get on campus. There's also Max who could project as a stretch 4 at times. Plus, you know we'll land at least one highly recruited forward in 2016. I'm assuming at Vandy lots of early playing time is more likely.

They also landed the #10 football recruit in the country today.

I agree. Crean is great at getting 1 featured player in each class, then after that it tends to fall off. At some of the schools you mentioned JBJ would be their 3rd recruit, not their headliner. I don't mean that as an indictment on JBJ, just saying to consistently compete with the Dukes, UK's, Louisville's, Kansas', etc., we need to be bringing classes primarily consisting of 5* and high ranked 4* kids, with a 3* thrown in for depth. We tend to go the reverse way lately.    Before someone says "it's not all about star ratings", I get that, but it's the easiest way to summarize the thought, since I'm not on the scouting trail. 

Are the swings really right on? Wasn't Robert Johnson swinging UNC right up until his commitment? There are other examples, just can't recall them at the moment.   My view of the crystal ball is that a lot of swings happen when a player is on a visit or shortly there after, which I don't think is really based on inside info, more just "hey he visited school X and said good things, they must be making a move". 

It's not what it used to be right now, but with the right leadership it can and should get back to that. If you, or the fan base and a whole, doesn't believe that then we have a problem. Do you really think Indiana can't get back to being a top program? Look at Aabama, they see down for a long time, then they got the right coach and all of the sudden they're dominant again.

That's a different discussion though. I agree with what you've said completely in this post.    Though, I've always felt what really hurt last years team wasn't so much the youth (though it was a real issue) and roster continuity, it was the ineptitude of the 2011 and 2012 classes outside of Zeller and Yogi. In an ideal scenario, last years team is led by Yogi, Hollowell, Perea, and even Ethrington and Abel (if he had stayed), but in reality only one of those guys gave us anything at all. We should not have been counting on Williams, Stan and Gordon last year, they should have been role players off the bench, not starters logging major minutes.    Losing Zeller, VO, Hulls, Watford, etc. were huge losses, but the remaining guys from the 2011 and 2012 classes should have been the replacements, not counting on basically all freshmen. The real issue is that our 2011 and 2012 classes were virtually 1-man classes.    There's definitely a lot of blame for that on Crean. 

I understand your overall point, and yes ultimately in the big picture the success of the program will determine if Crean is still here. But yes, sometimes execution is the players fault. Not everything that happens is the coaches fault just because he's the one in charge. 

I agree. It also doesn't mean they only cares about the NBA, or that they're selfish, etc., etc. Are some? Yes. So are some lower ranked recruits. It's about the kids character and priorities.   I also don't get that anytime fans say we want good recruits, it means we want to be the "UK of the North". You can recruit high-level players and not have all of them be 1 and done, and not have all of them be solely focused on the NBA.    At IU, I think we should typically have at least 1 5* and 2 4*'s in every class (assuming a minimum 3-player class), that doesn't mean I want to be "UK North". Cody Zeller was a 5* that stayed two years. Yogi is a 5* that is about to be a junior. Christian Watford was a 4* that stayed 4 years. Hulls was a 4* by some services. Troy Williams and Stan Robinson are both multiple year players, and there's a good chance JBJ and Robert Johnson will be too.    I just want more of those guys on the roster and less of the unranked guys. 

Thanks for posting. This doesn't really sum up my stance in this thread though. I'm not debating for Tom Crean's coaching ability. I'm debating that the idea that he isn't respected in the industry is unfounded and not accurate. Like I said earlier, he was awful last year, and he lost me on the bandwagon, though I can be won back. But, that doesn't mean he isn't respected in the coaching fraternity.

I agree, I think that's the model for being consistent/perennial contenders. 2-3 5*'s a year might be a bit much, but I've always felt consistent contending programs are built on multiple 4* recruits each year, sprinkled in with a 5* and a 3*. Of course, it all varies based on class size each year. The 5* guys are your instant impact guys, the 4* guys are your foundation of the program, and the 3* guys are role players or end of bench guys, outside the diamond in the rough guy like VO.

Tom Crean is 3-3 against Izzo over the last three seasons. The only proof isn't the conference COY, that's not really proof at all. The proof is former head coaches wanting to be on his staff. The proof is a coach as respected as Izzo continually vouching for him and speaking highly of him. The proof is the Charlotte Hornets speaking glowingly of him. The proof is Bo Ryan, a rival, giving him advice from their recent Canada trip (Bo Ryan, nor Tom Crean for that matter, have anything to do with Canada's visa process). The proof is Crean and Fran McCaffrey having a phone call shortly after McCaffrey's son was diagnosed. There are plenty more stories just like that, and those things don't happen without a mutual respect. Crean is very good friends with Tony LaRusa and Doc Rivers too. Not college coaches, but highly respected coaches in their fields. You might not like him, and I agree that he was awful last year, but he is respected among his peers. I don't even think that's really debatable.

I'm sorry, not trying to be rude, but your points aren't even making sense. We're dismissing Crean getting advice from Bo Ryan as a sign of mutual respect, because IU is too good to get advice from a Wisconsin coach? He was getting advice on how to best handle to Canada trip, any good coach would do that. Izzo is going after Crean's recruits because he knows his weaknesses? Ummmm, recruiting isn't one of his weaknesses. Crean recruited almost all of the key guys that won Izzo a National Championship. Izzo respects Crean so much that he gave him a championship ring even though Crean had already left for Marquette. I also read an article yesterday that quoted Fran McCaffrey saying Coach Crean was one of the first coaches to call him and check-in when his son was diagnosed with cancer. It just sounds to me like there isn't much basis of fact behind your opinion. It's more of storylines based on some blow-by handshakes and the Michigan incident (both of which I think are amateurish by Crean) than based on how he's really viewed by his peers.

Just to piggy-back on the previous reply, it has nothing to do with Tom Crean at all. It's all about how Knight was fired in 2000. It's actually encouraging to hear that Pat Knight was at a practice! Thanks for sharing that.

I think you have to go tie between Scott May and Alan Henderson. At least one, potentially two, more national championships for IU if those injuries don't happen.

That was an ESPN poll. I saw it. It was based on last season. Other than that poll, why would you think he's not respected outside of the league? What has shown that? Kenny Johnson had nothing but great things to say. Benny Seltzer has said nothing but great things. He keeps adding former head coaches to his staff. The Charlotte Hornets had great things to say about him after drafting Vonleh. Dwyane Wade just brought half his team to work with Crean. Again, he's worked for Izzo, Heathcoate and Willard, and tremulously respected coaches coaches. I absolutely respect you having your own opinion, of course.

If you're a former head coach and hoping to be one again, you're not going to work for a coach that isn't respected. You're going to go work for a coach that is highly respected in the industry and can vouch for you, etc. A coach that can get you back on the map and call other schools when you're ready again. Izzo isn't going to vouch for a coach, putting his reputation on the line, recommending him at both Marquette and IU, if he didn't think Crean was a good coach and respected him. I doubt recommending Crean to IU was some elaborate plan to keep IU down and steal recruits from Indiana. We know that Crean is good friends with Izzo, Calipari, and worked for Heathcoate, Izzo, and Ralph Willard. Those are three of the most respected coaches in the industry. We know Bo Ryan gave him advice this summer about our Canada trip. Why is Bo Ryan giving a conference rival, who you think he doesn't respect, advice? Sabotage? I doubt it. These guys are in a fraternity and Crean is definitely in the club. It sounds to me like you're taking some blow-by handshakes (which I can't stand either) and extrapolating that into a myth that Crean isn't respected in the industry.

I'm going to go in a different direction, definitely could go with a lot of Knight moments, but I'm sure we'll get plenty of those in this thread. I'll with Crean sweeping OSU, MSU and Michigan on the road in 2013 to win the Big Ten title outright. Definitely a feat worth mentioning!

I'm not sure any of your first paragraph is really accurate. He's one of the few coaches who's entire staff are all former D1 head coaches. Former head coaches aren't going to be Crean's assistant if he's not widely respected. Buckley has stayed with him for years and the same for McClain. They're not doing that if Crean isn't respected. Izzo is one of the most respected coaches in the game, and he loves Crean. Crean had his issues with some other coaches during the rebuild, no denying that, but I think the idea that he's not respected isn't accurate. Like I said above, Crean got advice on the Canada trip from Bo Ryan. Do you think that's happening if those two really didn't get along? We also know he's really well respected by NBA coaches as well.

I think this theory might be overblown a bit. Of course he's had issues with some guys during the rebuild "negative recruiting, etc) but I think Crean is generally pretty liked in the coaching community. I think Bo Ryan is a coach that many think Crean doesn't get along with, yet Crean talked this summer about getting advice from Bo Ryan regarding our Canada trip.

I don't think there's any different rules. I guess technically Yogi could take some b.s. classes and say he's working towards a second degree in another discipline.    I guess the bottom line is, as long as he's enrolled in school and has eligibility, he can play. 

He would have to commit to taking graduate classes during that season, but doesn't mean he would have to finish the degree. 

Not to be a downer, but I'm not sure that's what it means. It's really only one spot. The vast majority have Yogi, JBJ, Troy and Hanner locked in, it's just that 3rd guard spot that varies between Zeisloft, RoJo and Stan.   

The other option is he's sometimes just trying to throw one of his guys a "solid". Get a guy so,e positive PR. Get a guy he knows isn't going to play in the NBA some extra looks from good European clubs, etc. I doubt he really believed Elston was an NBA player. He barely got off the bench at IU even when healthy.