FindEndNow

jonathan bender was picked on potential by the pacers. ... How did that work out. There will be success and failure stories on both sides of this argument

Bender dealt with multiple injuries though. Which draft class was he in? 2000?

Its not even close and you know it. You know my kids can hold fa more mature conversation than you. Why must you continually be a pain in the ass for the sakie of being a pain in the ass? We have asked nicely. We let you turn an IU board into a NBA board. Everyone knows you are young by the way you post. So why must you be this way toward everyone in general? PMs haven't worked. Warningtfdfs xz worked m . Rr are you hoping to accomplish here?

Well I'm not just going to agree with what everyone says here. And I'm going to type my opinion. Why wouldn't I? I thought this place would be better than ITH but it's just the same almost but with more variety(as to topics).

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE NBA. You absolutely blow my mind.

And neither am i. Cody was better at IU than Vic.

Right. Which is what I said. Didja happen to read that last part of my post...? Or just arguing for arguing's sake again?

And when you take both into account. Cody was still better. Vic is a better player now. Though his defense slumped because of the offensive load he must carry.

But did you watch any of the games? Vic did things that don't show up in box scores. I'm not talking about stats. Did you watch him play?

Yes. And so did Cody. That's what great players do.

"Just go check the stats" is a fantastic argument. If you don't know anything about basketball.

Calbert put up the best ones on ITH. I'd go check them out. He also compares Zeller to some other B1G players like Sully and Burke.

Win shares are a good stat, but they don't tell the whole picture. Defensive win shares can be pretty flawed (they basically use the teams defensive scoring efficiency while the player is on the floor, in conjunction witht the players blocks and steals), and Cody was worth 2.5 WS while Vic was worth 2.7 WS in 12-13. I think the actual difference in their defensive impact was bigger than that. The difference in their total win shares that season was minimal (7.4 to 6.8 WS) and I don't think you can make any definitve conclusions about who performed better that season based on that alone. I'll just say that I think you can make an argument for either player being the best during Tom Crean's tenure, because the overall difference is pretty small.

Cody was actually pretty good at defense. You won't find many big men that'll hedge on a screen and pick a PG's pocket.

What's a win share? And if it's as it sounds it should be, he and Vic should be tied

I think it was originally a baseball statistic. But takes a players performance ties it in with the success of the team.

Cody had a better '11-12, Vic had every bit as good, if not better 12-13

Cody was a better player over his career. Vic had about 3/4 of a season. The win shares totals are just great by Zeller which was like 14.3. Vic's wasn't quite 13.

Vic's Junior season was better than either of Cody's 2 seasons. By far. At the same time, Cody was more talented and still gave us 2 amazing years. Those 2 are so neck and neck that it's hard to even begin to pick one. Vic had a typical, nothing to see here freshman year, an on-the-rise sophomore year, then a blow-up, player of the year junior year. Cody gave us 2 years straight where he dominated at times and even when he didn't, was still either the best or second best player on the floor. I want to call it a draw, but Vic's singing ability gives him the slight edge.

Just go check the stats. Zeller was better. His win shares is the most impressive part of it for just two years.

Are you saying we shouldn't recruit Indy because of one player? Or that we should stop recruiting Southern Indiana because it's known for its meth problem?

We don't recruit Southern much anyways. Indy is just like Chicago though. I was told we shouldn't recruit Chicago because it is sketchy. Well so is Indy.

Here we go again. No, Troy shouldn't be able to average 17 and 8. The list of players in the B1G over the last 5ish years to average 17 and 8 is short. I don't remember the exact names but it wasn't a long list. Kamisky, Zeller, Mbakwe, Sullinger, and I believe one other. So no, 17 and 8 isn't really attainable for Troy.

He averaged 13 points and 7.4 rebounds last year. He's pretty much there with the rebounds. No reason he can't averaged almost 17 points a game.

I'm not so sure, I think Vic was definitely the better player in 2012-13. Oladipo finished #2 in the Wooden Award vote and Zeller finished #7.

Vic was a media favorite for his rise. Zeller was consistently put down by the media for whatever reason. I think how the media put Cody down had skewed people's view on him. If you go to the ITH link, a poster put up some good stats. Win shares being the biggest one.

I actually agree but I watched some NV games in high school. He had the same issues on a HS level. Never seemed in the flow of the offense or had a definite role. He'd get his points off the offensive glass and the occasional 3. The point guard rarely gave him the ball. We saw much of these same things.

NV fashions himself as a Harrison Barnes type player. Crean and his HS coach played him like a true 5. Vonleh will eventually be great if he can play the 3 or 4. I think his face up game has the chance to be excellent.

Also, our lack of shooting really hurt our offensive game plan for Vonleh, as teams collapsed all around him.

I really hate people talking about how that team couldn't shoot. You know what you do about that? You adjust your game to fit your personnel. Every year UofL can't hit water if they were in the ocean. Yet they're good. Not having 3 point shooters is a terrible excuse. We had Yogi, Gordon, Sheehey, Etherington and Vonleh. Hollowell and Hartman. We had people who could shoot on the team. But that team was so badly misused by the coaching staff. That alone should have had people fired.

Well Turner and Kaminsky are also two very different players with different skill sets. Im happy with the pick but I don't think we will really see the true Turner for a few years. I think Kaminsky is less athletic but his shooting is the key. Kaminsky will be able to step into the starting lineup right away for Charlotte. Turner fits the pacers' needs more because he will be able to run the court and provide really good defense.

Turner is a good shot blocker. But Turner actually has a nice shot on him. He did struggle with his shot in his 1 year but Texas as a team struggled.

Hansbrough got all of his points of the fast break and the majority from free throws. Kaminsky was a 41% 3 point shooter last year (38% the year before) and then got 30% of his points in the post. A lot different.
Bird said he picked Hansbrough because of his hustle and work ethic (which at the time the "gangsters" Pacers lacked).

The gangster Pacers lol. But yea... they were. I'd rather pick with potential. Turner has a TON. Kaminsky... we'll he's where he is at.

Maybe you only know about the meth problem in indiana because you are here, but believe me its just as much a problem all across the midwest. Illinois, Ohio, and Iowa are among the states being taken over by this problem. A simple google search goes a long way on this topic. But this has nothing to do with the actual topic of this thread so I won't say anything more

Well it ties into the thread and a problem with recruiting in Indiana. You don't always know what a player is doing off the field. Antonio Allen though was a bit of an extreme case I'd say.

Not even close to the same player. I get it, you don't like Kaminsky. Congrats

No. But Hansbrough was picked on college production WAY over potential. Same with Kaminsky. Both are career backups. Hansbrough was arguably a better player in college as well. He was a beast at UNC.

I wouldn't have been, the pacers have picked players that had a lot less upside over the years. But we'll see how Turner develops over the next few years.

We've picked Tyler Hansbrough once. Why do it again?

*Clears throat and crosses arms*
-Illinois

Not even Illinois. Indiana is well known as the meth capital. Sad but true. But that rural America. Greatly lead by Southern Indiana. I live in a small town and all you see in the paper are meth busts lol.

Yeah I agree about Hawes, but Cody has not shown much ability to shoot the ball. He still only gets most of his points in transition. Charlotte isn't too high on him anymore and it shows because they were looking to unload him. Cody is a lot more atheltic than Kaminsky but can't shoot it like him at all. The jury is still out on Hawes. He had a great year before free agency last summer but had a terrible year with the Clips, shot very poorly, and found himself at the end of their bench even when they were desperate for shooting off the bench. I agree that it was a stretch to pick him at 9 but if he wasn't picked at 9 he would've easily gotten picked by the Heat at 10 or the Pacers at 11. Heck several teams were trying to move up into the lottery to select Kaminsky (Atlanta being one of those teams)

I would be embarrassed if the Pacers had picked Kaminsky over Turner.

Troy has to be consistent this year to play that much. Last year he killed us too many times by disappearing in games. Usually if he had a good, consistent game the team played up to potential. Then there were games like the Purdue games and even the Witicha State game in the tourney where he completely disappeared and we looked like a mess.

Michigan State at MSU. He was nowhere. Troy should honestly be able to average 17 points abs 8 rebounds. Even with Yogi and JBJ out there with him.

Except that Iowa also has a huge meth problem, all states, towns, etc have some sort of drug issue if you really want to look at it that way. I doubt players really care about the regional drug of choice or are really affected by it

Indiana just had a player kicked off the football team for dealing coke, herion and meth. He's from Indy. Indy isn't candy land... depending on what your candy is. But no one has a meth problem line Indiana. It's sad to see. But if one player was doing this... there's gotta be two.

Eh. I'm fine with keeping Roy for another year. Tuner is really raw (and I hope I am dead wrong on him), plus though I think Mahimi is one of the best back up centers in the league, he'd be a minus as a starter consistently. Plus with the cap boom and Hibbert's contract coming off the books we could make a play for some second tier free agents next off-season. Also, think this next year could easily be a whole lot like this past season, and we should look for something more in the towards the future with the 4 spot (where we could be like historically bad this next season) and the 2 spot

I like Turner to play the 4. We need to find a big man to replace to replace Hibbert. Really the only untouchables on the team should be George and Turner. This isn't a team built to contend. It is built just to have a team period. A lot of changes need to happen.

If it's ten most important, I'd say Zeller at 1. But if it's best, easily Vic. Also if we hang a banner this year, that whole list changes.

No. In the NBA Vic is better. At IU it was Cody. And it wasn't very close.