Jump to content

Thanks for visiting BtownBanners.com!  We noticed you have AdBlock enabled.  While ads can be annoying, we utilize them to provide these forums free of charge to you!  Please consider removing your AdBlock for BtownBanners or consider signing up to donate and help BtownBanners stay alive!  Thank you!

Banksyrules

WORLD SERIES

Recommended Posts

I was just messing with you but, I'll defend his case for shits a gigs. Leads in ERA, Whip,lower walks, and even though Arrieta leads in wins, Greinke leads in win %. I don't like using wins and win % it's a more of a team stat.

2.35 FIP vs 2.76 (I am assuming you know what this means since you said arguing for shits and gigs). Over 7 WAR vs sub 6. Arrieta K rate a lot higher. Greinke's BABIP is a little on the lucky side and well below the norm. ERA is great if you take into consideration the runners inherited by your pitching staff. On the wins? Sorry that is one stat I will use to discuss how good a pitcher is. So much more than just the pitcher goes into that stat. The FIP is the one to me that shows Arrieta has been hands down the better pitcher. His 2nd half advanced stats show he has had 1 of 2 of the greatest pitching halves of all time. Greinke's numbers show he is a fly ball pitcher in a pitchers park (FIP and 48% GB rate). Nothing wrong with pitching to your park but the numbers that only take pitching into account show Arrieta had the better season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But my lord tell me why Kershaw? Strikeouts mean that much?

Look at his WHIP, K rate, and FIP. 1.99 which is worse than last year! That is insane and shows how dominant he is. Only reason he doesn't win the Cy Young is because you have a few older writers who aren't fan of advanced stats and will still put him at 3 because of W/L. But his overall numbers are right there with Arrieta. He is more overpowering but people do damage to him when they put the ball in play at a higher than normal clip.

Edit: Just looking at his advanced stats we haven't seen a 2 year stretch like this since Koufax. That's impressive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lester isn't pitching that game. The best pitcher in baseball this year is.

I know, was saying team as a whole with Lester as a part of it. Arrieta was the obvious choice all along.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2.35 FIP vs 2.76 (I am assuming you know what this means since you said arguing for shits and gigs). Over 7 WAR vs sub 6. Arrieta K rate a lot higher. Greinke's BABIP is a little on the lucky side and well below the norm. ERA is great if you take into consideration the runners inherited by your pitching staff. On the wins? Sorry that is one stat I will use to discuss how good a pitcher is. So much more than just the pitcher goes into that stat. The FIP is the one to me that shows Arrieta has been hands down the better pitcher. His 2nd half advanced stats show he has had 1 of 2 of the greatest pitching halves of all time. Greinke's numbers show he is a fly ball pitcher in a pitchers park (FIP and 48% GB rate). Nothing wrong with pitching to your park but the numbers that only take pitching into account show Arrieta had the better season.

Wins are a borderline useless stat for pitchers. Hiroki Kuroda had a sub .500 winning %, but other stats show he was a pretty good pitcher.

The rest of the team has a big impact on a pitcher's W/L record.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2.35 FIP vs 2.76 (I am assuming you know what this means since you said arguing for shits and gigs). Over 7 WAR vs sub 6. Arrieta K rate a lot higher. Greinke's BABIP is a little on the lucky side and well below the norm. ERA is great if you take into consideration the runners inherited by your pitching staff. On the wins? Sorry that is one stat I will use to discuss how good a pitcher is. So much more than just the pitcher goes into that stat. The FIP is the one to me that shows Arrieta has been hands down the better pitcher. His 2nd half advanced stats show he has had 1 of 2 of the greatest pitching halves of all time. Greinke's numbers show he is a fly ball pitcher in a pitchers park (FIP and 48% GB rate). Nothing wrong with pitching to your park but the numbers that only take pitching into account show Arrieta had the better season.

I've got a 9.3 war to an 8.6, and the only number your using is the only one you can find to give Arrieta the push in FIP. Ask any coach/owner if they would rather their pitcher lead in FIP or ERA? I'm going to guess ERA is the one they choose. However I completely agree the Arrieta's second half has been unbelievable, second to none. It's unfortunate for both these guys to have the years they've had and it be a debate on whose should be the cy young. I won't be upset if they give it to either one but if Kershaw wins it's a damn joke!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look at his WHIP, K rate, and FIP. 1.99 which is worse than last year! That is insane and shows how dominant he is. Only reason he doesn't win the Cy Young is because you have a few older writers who aren't fan of advanced stats and will still put him at 3 because of W/L. But his overall numbers are right there with Arrieta. He is more overpowering but people do damage to him when they put the ball in play at a higher than normal clip.

Edit: Just looking at his advanced stats we haven't seen a 2 year stretch like this since Koufax. That's impressive.

No I said outside of K's and once again not just Wins he's also 3rd in ERA and last I checked the cy young is for this year not last year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've got a 9.3 war to an 8.6, and the only number your using is the only one you can find to give Arrieta the push in FIP. Ask any coach/owner if they would rather their pitcher lead in FIP or ERA? I'm going to guess ERA is the one they choose. However I completely agree the Arrieta's second half has been unbelievable, second to none. It's unfortunate for both these guys to have the years they've had and it be a debate on whose should be the cy young. I won't be upset if they give it to either one but if Kershaw wins it's a damn joke!

Any coach would want FIP. ERA is still dependent on holds by relief pitchers and your defenders. It's not useless at all but doesn't tell you how good a pitcher is. FIP is fielding independent pitching which calculate how good a pitcher is independent of his team. Is Grienke a better pitcher for the Dodgers or Phillies. Not any one stat is the be all end all but to tell how good a player truly is you have rely less on dependent variables.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any coach would want FIP. ERA is still dependent on holds by relief pitchers and your defenders. It's not useless at all but doesn't tell you how good a pitcher is. FIP is fielding independent pitching which calculate how good a pitcher is independent of his team. Is Grienke a better pitcher for the Dodgers or Phillies. Not any one stat is the be all end all but to tell how good a player truly is you have rely less on dependent variables.

I know what it is. Once again for shits and gigs can you explain what the do and plug in to get the numbers 2.35? How does ERA depend on fielders?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't want to make it sound like I am minimizing what Greinke did. He is a 1A pitcher on a staff with another 1A. I prefer Kershaw's season as a pitcher. He has been as unlucky as Greinke has been lucky which happens. I would take those two over Arrieta in a series. But I think the Cy Young will go to Arrieta fairly easy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know what it is. Once again for shits and gigs can you explain what the do and plug in to get the numbers 2.35? How does ERA depend on fielders?

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/pitching/fip/

It is a weighted variable taking into account every significant stat a pitcher can control. The variable is complex and best I cite to not confuse others more.

Edit: I usually like for a pitcher to judge off K rate, fWAR, BB, BBAIP, and FIP. No one stat gives you the answers to everything but FIP is very critical in telling you how good someone is. Take for instance Kershaw. If you go purely off FIP, no Cub in 130 years posted as good of FIP as he did this year. That stat is just him and the hitter. It's pretty easy to sit back and say sure, we haven't had anyone near as dominant as him. But like you said there is more to pitching than just over matching a hitter or he would be the Cy Young every year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/pitching/fip/

It is a weighted variable taking into account every significant stat a pitcher can control. The variable is complex and best I cite to not confuse others more.

Edit: I usually like for a pitcher to judge off K rate, fWAR, BB, BBAIP, and FIP. No one stat gives you the answers to everything but FIP is very critical in telling you how good someone is. Take for instance Kershaw. If you go purely off FIP, no Cub in 130 years posted as good of FIP as he did this year. That stat is just him and the hitter. It's pretty easy to sit back and say sure, we haven't had anyone near as dominant as him. But like you said there is more to pitching than just over matching a hitter or he would be the Cy Young every year.

Well it's a good thing the Cy Young isn't judged that way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know what it is. Once again for shits and gigs can you explain what the do and plug in to get the numbers 2.35? How does ERA depend on fielders?

Because the pitcher is relying on the fielder to make the play to prevent a run. The pitcher also can't control how a play is scored, i.e. if a fielder trips and doesn't catch the ball it's ruled a hit and the run is earned but the pitcher had no control over what happened.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because the pitcher is relying on the fielder to make the play to prevent a run. The pitcher also can't control how a play is scored, i.e. if a fielder trips and doesn't catch the ball it's ruled a hit and the run is earned but the pitcher had no control over what happened.

Not accurate if it's a routine ball and he trips it's an error, if it's a shot in the gap and he's sprinting to get it it's ruled the other way. Now the only one that truly gets scored wrong to me is the suns in his eyes it's ruled a hit. It's unfortunate to be handed an error for that but I also don't like that it penalizes the pitchers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If it wasn't Greinke will be your Cy Young. We will see.

Not entirely true they can look at Wins and strikeouts and the small difference in the ERA and Arrieta will still get it. I actually have 10$ on Arrieta winning with a friend of mine. I said I was only arguing for shits and gigs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not entirely true they can look at Wins and strikeouts and the small difference in the ERA and Arrieta will still get it. I actually have 10$ on Arrieta winning with a friend of mine. I said I was only arguing for shits and gigs.

But but if we look at wins don't we look at losses? Are 3 more wins worth 3 more losses? Are the strikeouts worth the added walks? For shits and gigs of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ugh I really wish the Cards were playing on the road on Sunday whomever the opponent is. GF is a Cubs fan and I have never been to Wrigley would have been an epic game to go to.

As a Cubs fan I think playing in St Louis and being there would be great. Not many places you guys haven't been in the playoffs though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But but if we look at wins don't we look at losses? Are 3 more wins worth 3 more losses? Are the strikeouts worth the added walks? For shits and gigs of course.

Of course. I would say yes, but to how much they matter I don't know. Kershaw won last year on less Wins, less losses and a lot less innings. It was all about the ERA and strikeouts. Which is why I don't know for sure who'll win an don't think it will be a no brainer. I can see a very close race with 1st place votes being split almost evenly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×