Crean Recruitment in the Midwest?

[HoosierD 504]

FWIW, I don't give him credit for Will. I liked Will...don't get me wrong. But Will Sheehey plays in almost every conference in Indiana, and there's a clone of his playing right now (maybe he graduated...don't know) at Fishers and another one at Evansville Reitz. Will Sheehey was a great role player on a great team, but on his own as a senior, and WITH an NBA lottery pick, his team missed the post season. There was nothing special about WIll Sheehey that Crean couldn't have found, probably within 30 minutes of Bloomington.

Oladipo worked his A$$ off to become what he did. He played on that team USA group the summer after his freshman season, and found a trainer he liked....and went to work. Crean didn't develop him. Oladipo developed Oladipo. I do give credit to Crean for finding a kid of that character. Williams is a very poor fundamental basketball player. He's a freak athlete who plays basketball. You're talking about a kid who led his team in turnovers, and as freaky athletic as he is, had half as many blocks as Colin Hartman and has very little in the way of a perimeter game. Not to bash him or criticize you... My way of viewing basketball players has less to do with "the simple positives of the kids who said yes" than it does with what we could be if Crean put any real effort into building a team with kids whose abilities make everyone else better and a program that can succeed year in and year out. You cannot do that with Will Sheehey and Troy Williams.

6'6" with a 40" vertical....come on, you can't find that 30 min from Bloomington on any given year. And the years that you can, the kid is probably not very good at basketball.

[JSHoosier 19,842]

Crean should pick a certain style of offense and defense. Then go to the Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, and Wisconsin all star games and recruit kids straight from there. Kids who don't smoke in the offseason and have a work ethic similar to Vic's. Kids who he sees potential in and who he can develop. Kids who fit HIS style of play, Indiana's style of play. He shouldn't wait til the top freshman lists come out and recruit those kids and fail. He's like a Calipari only a much worse version. Calipari is a good basketball coach, he's a great recruiter and can turn good players into great players. (Willie Cauley Stein). Crean could never develop a raw 7 footer (Peter Jurkin and Jeremiah April.) We need a coach who can take after Beilein, Izzo, and Ryan, a coach who gets players to want to come to IU to play in a certain style of play. I also want to see a team that is ready to face a 2-3 zone, or a team that can make mid game adjustments, or a coach who can develop a player. We need a coach who gets good kids and turns them into great kids, on the court and off.

Crean has a 'style', you can see his 'style' on display at Rucker Park.  It's called street ball and I can't stand watching it.

[Old Friend 8,389]

6'6" with a 40" vertical....come on, you can't find that 30 min from Bloomington on any given year. And the years that you can, the kid is probably not very good at basketball.

His athletic ability has nothing to do with his ability to play basketball nor any kid's ability to play basketball.   Not what I meant.  There are kids in the Jessie White Tumblers who can jump over a refrigerator, but they wouldn't help a basketball team, just like you said.   And athletic 6'6" kids grow on trees.  There are 20 of them playing in or near Indianapolis.   Matt Holba from Guerin Catholic is a very similar player with a very similar skill set.  Dwayne Gibson from Park Tudor is another one.   When Sheehey was a senior, he played with a McDonald's All American point guard and a lottery pick big man.  And his team missed the post season.   If he were a difference maker, he'd have been able to lead his team to better than that.    he had the benefit of playing on some really good teams with good leaders ahead of him.   Oladipo, Zeller, and Hulls were special.   Sheehey was just a role player on a great team..and you can find those anywhere you look in Indiana.   I liked him, don't get me wrong; but we didn't need to go to Florida to get him.

[JSHoosier 19,842]

6'6" with a 40" vertical....come on, you can't find that 30 min from Bloomington on any given year. And the years that you can, the kid is probably not very good at basketball.

Will was a good complimentary player, but not as a focal point.  I liked Will, but he was what he was.

[Hovadipo 55,156]

His athletic ability has nothing to do with his ability to play basketball nor any kid's ability to play basketball. Not what I meant. There are kids in the Jessie White Tumblers who can jump over a refrigerator, but they wouldn't help a basketball team. And athletic 6'6" kids grow on trees. There are 20 of them playing in or near Indianapolis. Matt Holba from Guerin Catholic is a very similar player. When Sheehey was a senior, he played with a McDonald's All American point guard and a lottery pick big man. And his team missed the post season. If he were any good, he'd have been able to lead his team to better than that. he had the benefit of playing on some really good teams with good leaders ahead of him. Oladipo, Zeller, and Hulls were special. Sheehey was just a role player on a great team..and you can find those anywhere you look in Indiana.

Sorry man but I'm not buying the fact that there are 20 1,000 point scoring, B1G 6th Men of the Year within arms reach of Bloomington. You might be talking up the Indiana HS basketball scene a TAD too much. I don't claim to have scene your buddy at Fishers or Guerin Catholic, but I feel like they would get some major attention in-state if they were as talented as Sheehey.

Edit: I deleted the stupid paragraph at the end so I don't look...stupid.

[HoosierD 504]

His athletic ability has nothing to do with his ability to play basketball nor any kid's ability to play basketball. Not what I meant. There are kids in the Jessie White Tumblers who can jump over a refrigerator, but they wouldn't help a basketball team, just like you said. And athletic 6'6" kids grow on trees. There are 20 of them playing in or near Indianapolis. Matt Holba from Guerin Catholic is a very similar player with a very similar skill set. Dwayne Gibson from Park Tudor is another one. When Sheehey was a senior, he played with a McDonald's All American point guard and a lottery pick big man. And his team missed the post season. If he were any good, he'd have been able to lead his team to better than that. he had the benefit of playing on some really good teams with good leaders ahead of him. Oladipo, Zeller, and Hulls were special. Sheehey was just a role player on a great team..and you can find those anywhere you look in Indiana.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree, Bc yes how tall and athletic you are does play into basketball ability, otherwise Jordan Hulls would be in the league. Just those two factors alone don't make you a good player and I completely understand that and even hit on it in my last post.

[HoosierD 504]

Will was a good complimentary player, but not as a focal point. I liked Will, but he was what he was.

Never said he was a star, just disagreed with the idea that you can find one of him everywhere.

[Iufan2324 158]

Crean could literally only recruit indiana and have a better team than he has now and could at least be a sweet 16 team every year. Here's some indiana kids who ARE NOT going to iu because why? Swanigan, jalen Coleman, tahjai Teague, Ryan cline, Hyron Edwards, kj Walton, fazekas, smits, sanford, toye. The list goes on and on every single year.

[Old Friend 8,389]

Sorry man but I'm not buying the fact that there are 20 1,000 point scoring, B1G 6th Men of the Year within arms reach of Bloomington. You might be talking up the Indiana HS basketball scene a TAD too much. I don't claim to have scene your buddy at Fishers or Guerin Catholic, but I feel like they would get some major attention in-state if they were as talented as Sheehey.

Arguing that his HS team underperformed is a little irrelevant to his IU career as well.

I wasn't talking about his high school team.  I was talking about his senior season at IU.   He played with Yogi Ferrell and Noah Vonleh.   He was the senior leader, and the team grossly under-performed.    He was just fine on a #1 ranked team in the country as a bench player; and there are dozens of players from Indiana and surrounding states who would be also.    He was a product of the people he played with in my opinion.   Yes he was athletic, but he was not a special basketball player.  He was an athletic, competitive kid who played a role very nicely.  When the spotlight was on and it was his show?  Not so much.

[Old Friend 8,389]

Guess we will have to agree to disagree, Bc yes how tall and athletic you are does play into basketball ability, otherwise Jordan Hulls would be in the league. Just those two factors alone don't make you a good player and I completely understand that and even hit on it in my last post.

Sheehey's not in the league, either.   My only point is you don't have to go to Florida to find kids who can do for Indiana what Sheehey did.   We all love him because he was here and played 4 years.  I loved his competitive drive and I loved what he brought.   But....that doesn't change my mind on whether or not we could have found that kid right here in Indiana.   On the Indiana All Star team Sheehey's senior year in high school  were DeShaun Thomas, Russell Byrd, Donnie Hale, Kegan Clark, Jake Kitchell, and Daniel Turner.  All of them are about Sheehey's height and all were D1 kids.  That's just off the top of my head, and I'm sure I'm missing some.

[Hovadipo 55,156]

I wasn't talking about his high school team. I was talking about his senior season at IU. He played with Yogi Ferrell and Noah Vonleh. He was the senior leader, and the team grossly under-performed. He was just fine on a #1 ranked team in the country as a bench player; and there are dozens of players from Indiana and surrounding states who would be also. He was a product of the people he played with in my opinion. Yes he was athletic, but he was not a special basketball player. He was an athletic, competitive kid who played a role very nicely. When the spotlight was on and it was his show? Not so much.

Lol my bad on the highlighted part. No idea what I was thinking there.

Anyways, I agree with your overall point in this post. He was a very good role player on a great team. He didn't perform well when the weight was put on his back. Where we don't see eye-to-eye is finding someone like him in Indiana whenever you want. He is a great athlete, a solid shooter, and had the (unquantifiable) basketball IQ that everyone slobbers over (not to mention an ego the size of Deandre Thomas' tummy). There are sure to be a few kids in the surrounding few states that could deliver some of that, but I don't think it's as easy as driving down the road and nabbing a Will Sheehey out of BFE Community High School. I think that's severely under-valuing someone who helped to bring IU basketball out of the deep, dark hole it was in.

[HoosierRich 75]

Hello all, first just want to say that I recently have found this board. I was a long-time poster on HSN before it was bought out and am glad to have found another IU board in a similar vein.

Second, I know from talking to several Indiana HS coaches that Crean has rubbed at least half the HS coaches wrong. Mostly they mention his recruiting style(very high pressure "used car salesman" was mentioned)), a lack of confidence that their players scholly will be honored for 4 years, and his inability to teach fundamental defense does not inspire confidence. This may be why he does not go after as many 3* Indiana kids.....he's not on good terms with coaches the way Painter, Izzo, even Holtman who is new.

[HoosierD 504]

Sheehey's not in the league, either. My only point is you don't have to go to Florida to find kids who can do for Indiana what Sheehey did. We all love him because he was here and played 4 years. I loved his competitive drive and I loved what he brought. But....that doesn't change my mind on whether or not we could have found that kid right here in Indiana. On the Indiana All Star team Sheehey's senior year in high school were DeShaun Thomas, Russell Byrd, Donnie Hale, Kegan Clark, Jake Kitchell, and Daniel Turner. All of them are about Sheehey's height and all were D1 kids. That's just off the top of my head, and I'm sure I'm missing some.

Only one of them had a better college career than Sheehey and none of them are the athlete that he was, which is what made him so good at his role.

I'm just as much about staying in Indiana to recruit as the next person, but to say you can find Will Sheehey's everywhere in Indiana just doesn't make sense to me.

[Old Friend 8,389]

Lol my bad on the highlighted part. No idea what I was thinking there.

Anyways, I agree with your overall point in this post. He was a very good role player on a great team. He didn't perform well when the weight was put on his back. Where we don't see eye-to-eye is finding someone like him in Indiana whenever you want. He is a great athlete, a solid shooter, and had the (unquantifiable) basketball IQ that everyone slobbers over (not to mention an ego the size of Deandre Thomas' tummy). There are sure to be a few kids in the surrounding few states that could deliver some of that, but I don't think it's as easy as driving down the road and nabbing a Will Sheehey out of BFE Community High School. I think that's severely under-valuing someone who helped to bring IU basketball out of the deep, dark hole it was in.

I can exaggerate a little too much from time to time, but I still say you don't have to go to Florida to get a kid who did for IU what Sheehey did.    Matt Holba at Guerin Catholic is a very similar player.  Indiana could have had him easily.   Would have been a bad fit now because the team's very different, but my point is, those kids (athletic, productive wings who are 6'4"+) come out of Indiana every year.  Butler has 3 of them  if you count Etherington (Dunham and Wideman being the others); and I know they're all from different years, but that's the point..it's building a roster and doing it every year.  Notre Dame has 3 more.   Purdue has 3 more.  Branden Dawson from MSU is an Indiana kid.   There's 10 players from 4 schools right around here.   And that doesn't count Zak Irvin or Gary Harris or James Blackmon.  I know we got him, but the point is the number of players that size who come from Indiana every single year.   And there are many others from different schools....then and now.  Just saying I think Indiana can get who they need if they simply focused on the local area.  

[Old Friend 8,389]

Only one of them had a better college career than Sheehey and none of them are the athlete that he was, which is what made him so good at his role.

I'm just as much about staying in Indiana to recruit as the next person, but to say you can find Will Sheehey's everywhere in Indiana just doesn't make sense to me.

I think you could have found plenty of kids who could have played that role on that team.    Every situation is different, and Sheehey's career was that good in large part due to the teams he played on, so comparing other kids' careers doesn't make sense to ME.   Who's to say that another kid wouldn't have played that role just as well as Sheehey did?  And I still say his athletic ability had nothing to do with his contributions to the team except for a couple of really cool highlight dunks.    When he wasn't a role player, his team and his numbers floundered.  Which is why I'm saying it wasn't as much HIM as it was circumstances.   I think plenty of kids could have done what he did.   But I love him.

[sddowning 146]

I can exaggerate a little too much from time to time, but I still say you don't have to go to Florida to get a kid who did for IU what Sheehey did. Matt Holba at Guerin Catholic is a very similar player. Indiana could have had him easily. Would have been a bad fit now because the team's very different, but my point is, those kids (athletic, productive wings who are 6'4"+) come out of Indiana every year. Butler has 3 of them if you count Etherington (Dunham and Wideman being the others); and I know they're all from different years, but that's the point..it's building a roster and doing it every year. Notre Dame has 3 more. Purdue has 3 more. Branden Dawson from MSU is an Indiana kid. There's 10 players from 4 schools right around here. And that doesn't count Zak Irvin or Gary Harris. And there are many others from different schools....then and now. Just saying I think Indiana can get who they need if they simply focused on the local area.

Indiana may have wanted those guys but did those guys want Indiana? That's the real question. I also would disagree with you if you are saying that Kellen Dunham is athletic as Will Sheehey.

[HoosierD 504]

I think you could have found plenty of kids who could have played that role on that team. Every situation is different, and Sheehey's career was that good in large part due to the teams he played on, so comparing other kids' careers doesn't make sense to ME. Who's to say that another kid wouldn't have played that role just as well as Sheehey did? And I still say his athletic ability had nothing to do with his contributions to the team except for a couple of really cool highlight dunks. When he wasn't a role player, his team and his numbers floundered. Which is why I'm saying it wasn't as much HIM as it was circumstances. I think plenty of kids could have done what he did. But I love him.

But then you say it is on him that he couldn't get last years team to the tourney. How can you give all the credit to the guys around him on the good team and then not place the blame on the guys around him last year?

The reason comparing careers is fair is bc he could have played anywhere they played at and only one of them could he not play in front of them. Russell Byrd no longer plays D1, Donnie Hale was a 4 and struggled to see the floor on bad Purdue teams, and the others played at mid majors.

And yes his athleticism played a great deal into his role. He provided energy, of which he used his athleticism to give. He defended other teams best wing players, while defense can be a lot effort, it also takes his type of athleticism to be as good as he was on defense.

[Old Friend 8,389]

Indiana may have wanted those guys but did those guys want Indiana? That's the real question. I also would disagree with you if you are saying that Kellen Dunham is athletic as Will Sheehey.

Sigh.  No.  I am not saying that.  I am discounting his athletic ability, not glorifying it.   There are plenty of great athletes who are horrible basketball players.  Athletic ability is very over-rated by itself.

[Old Friend 8,389]

But then you say it is on him that he couldn't get last years team to the tourney. How can you give all the credit to the guys around him on the good team and then not place the blame on the guys around him last year?

The reason comparing careers is fair is bc he could have played anywhere they played at and only one of them could he not play in front of them. Russell Byrd no longer plays D1, Donnie Hale was a 4 and struggled to see the floor on bad Purdue teams, and the others played at mid majors.

And yes his athleticism played a great deal into his role. He provided energy, of which he used his athleticism to give. He defended other teams best wing players, while defense can be a lot effort, it also takes his type of athleticism to be as good as he was on defense.

I don't understand your question.  I'm telling you I don't think you have to go to Florida to find a kid who did for the 2012 and 2013 teams what Sheehey did for them.  On his own, he wasn't a great player.   He was a role player on a very good team.   Do you know that Russell Byrd or Donnie Hale couldn't have done for IU what Sheehey did?   It doesn't matter one bit what they did where they were because circumstances were completely different.   

 

OIadipo guarded the other team's best.  Every time, all the time.   And Sheehey wasn't a great defender.  He was fine.   So was Luke Jiminez.  All I'm saying - again - is you don't have to go to Florida to find a player who did for that team what he did.    I am not bashing nor discounting Will Sheehey.   Jeesus.

[HoosierAloha 30,024]

Could you imagine Izzo's ability to recruit Indiana if he coached at IU? I believe you get many of the same recruits that we are seeing now with a mix of hard nosed three star recruits Izzo molds into great teams. Once they're here he would actually develop their fundamentals and basketball IQ to B1G championship and Final Four contenders annually.

Crean has been unable to get and keep those players on the roster.