NBA Thread

[mdn82 25,461]

Championships are a team stat. Not individual. And to act like it would be any surprise when he has AD, Danny Green, Avery Bradley, KCP, JaVale McGee, Kyle Kuzma, Dwight Howard, Rajon Rondo, Markieff Morris, Alex Caruso and had just gotten Dion Waiters. Two legitimate stars and great role players. Arguably the best roster in the league.


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Arguably. Sure. But it is so hard to win a title. At some point your star has to lift you. Him being on this team puts them in this conversation. It’s still impressive no matter how anyone tries and minimizes. I mean Frank Vogel is a solid enough coach, but he isn’t going to elevate them. I would take AD for sure but the rest are interchangeable role players you can find most every year. They look great now because of where they are. When you start selling me on Alex Caruso I know Lebron was having a great year.


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[jk34 1,105]

1 hour ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

Championships are a team stat. Not individual. And to act like it would be any surprise when he has AD, Danny Green, Avery Bradley, KCP, JaVale McGee, Kyle Kuzma, Dwight Howard, Rajon Rondo, Markieff Morris, Alex Caruso and had just gotten Dion Waiters. Two legitimate stars and great role players. Arguably the best roster in the league.


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Imagine if he had MKG, instead of AD! They'd be unstoppable!!

[mdn82 25,461]

Imagine if he had MKG, instead of AD! They'd be unstoppable!!

Ha. To be fair what did AD win prior to Lebron? That’s coming from somebody that would defend MJ to the death, because I feel he is the greatest player at his peak.


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[jk34 1,105]

Just now, mdn82 said:

Ha. To be fair what did AD win prior to Lebron? That’s coming from somebody that would defend MJ to the death, because I feel he is the greatest player at his peak.


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Absolutely agree! Was a huge Pippen fan as well. 

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,220]

Arguably. Sure. But it is so hard to win a title. At some point your star has to lift you. Him being on this team puts them in this conversation. It’s still impressive no matter how anyone tries and minimizes. I mean Frank Vogel is a solid enough coach, but he isn’t going to elevate them. I would take AD for sure but the rest are interchangeable role players you can find most every year. They look great now because of where they are. When you start selling me on Alex Caruso I know Lebron was having a great year.


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It is hard but you have to have a team. One guy can get you to the Finals at times such as Iverson or LeBron in 07’ but to win it, you have to have a team. I’m just not a fan of using team stats as an individual accomplishment in an argument of who is better(if that makes sense). Personally I believe any argument can be made for MJ, LeBron, Bird, Magic, Kareem or Wilt and probably even some others to be the GOAT.

As for not winning titles, guys like Barkley, Stockton, Malone were all time greats. Just wasn’t meant to be for them. I don’t think them not winning titles takes anything away from how great they were.


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[mdn82 25,461]

It is hard but you have to have a team. One guy can get you to the Finals at times such as Iverson or LeBron in 07’ but to win it, you have to have a team. I’m just not a fan of using team stats as an individual accomplishment in an argument of who is better(if that makes sense). Personally I believe any argument can be made for MJ, LeBron, Bird, Magic, Kareem or Wilt and probably even some others to be the GOAT.

As for not winning titles, guys like Barkley, Stockton, Malone were all time greats. Just wasn’t meant to be for them. I don’t think them not winning titles takes anything away from how great they were.


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That’s fair. I disagree but I think it’s a fine line. In football I think Dan Marino is one of the greatest quarterbacks who ever lived. But he doesn’t get that recognition due to not winning a title. I think to be that great you have to elevate your teammates. So it’s up to personal interpretation of what makes a player great. If you feel that way that’s fine. I don’t necessarily agree because many individual awards are given to the best players on teams that win. Those same awards are used to determine or argue who is great. It’s a very subjective conversation that I don’t feel there is a right or wrong and it comes down to personal preference. On your list where you added Bird and Magic. Why? Were they great? Sure, but did they have better individual seasons than other players? Some but not a ton. They won. That’s how you remember them. That’s why they are up on the pedestal they are on. John Stockton personally was better than Magic. But he was stoic, not on commercials, and didn’t win a title. It’s personal preference, but if you say you can’t use titles because it’s a team thing, I would argue you could take out MVP, DPOY, etc. Then everyone would blindly say Lebron. There are more elements than individual potential or skill that makes a player great. Imo


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[jk34 1,105]

To be the greatest,  you have to look at both ends of the court! That eliminates quite a few on the list. 

[Brass Cannon 24,068]

While titles are impressive I really think they are a team accomplishment.  Hence why I think Manning greater than Brady.

Brady had a better coach every single year he was in the league than Manning. And imagine what Peyton could have done with a top 10 defense year in and year out.   
 

That being said I think MJ is better than Lebron because how players became their best selves with MJ. Versus Lebron who forces teams to acquire these players then 3 years later his supporters are calling them scrubs. 

[mdn82 25,461]

To be the greatest,  you have to look at both ends of the court! That eliminates quite a few on the list. 

Completely agreed.


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[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,220]

That’s fair. I disagree but I think it’s a fine line. In football I think Dan Marino is one of the greatest quarterbacks who ever lived. But he doesn’t get that recognition due to not winning a title. I think to be that great you have to elevate your teammates. So it’s up to personal interpretation of what makes a player great. If you feel that way that’s fine. I don’t necessarily agree because many individual awards are given to the best players on teams that win. Those same awards are used to determine or argue who is great. It’s a very subjective conversation that I don’t feel there is a right or wrong and it comes down to personal preference. On your list where you added Bird and Magic. Why? Were they great? Sure, but did they have better individual seasons than other players? Some but not a ton. They won. That’s how you remember them. That’s why they are up on the pedestal they are on. John Stockton personally was better than Magic. But he was stoic, not on commercials, and didn’t win a title. It’s personal preference, but if you say you can’t use titles because it’s a team thing, I would argue you could take out MVP, DPOY, etc. Then everyone would blindly say Lebron. There are more elements than individual potential or skill that makes a player great. Imo


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But you have to have the right teammates to elevate. It can’t just be any random group. Guys with talent, who fit the system, have the right coach, front office. There is so much that goes into winning titles.


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[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,220]

While titles are impressive I really think they are a team accomplishment.  Hence why I think Manning greater than Brady.
Brady had a better coach every single year he was in the league than Manning. And imagine what Peyton could have done with a top 10 defense year in and year out.   
 
That being said I think MJ is better than Lebron because how players became their best selves with MJ. Versus Lebron who forces teams to acquire these players then 3 years later his supporters are calling them scrubs. 

Yea I would still say MJ is better. LeBron is still great though. A generational talent. So people should enjoy seeing it. Not sure who is next in line to be that good but i would still say that the league is in great shape with young talent. Personally Zion has really grown on me. I’ve went to thinking he’s overrated to bring one of my favorites in the league. Just plays so hard.


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[mdn82 25,461]

But you have to have the right teammates to elevate. It can’t just be any random group. Guys with talent, who fit the system, have the right coach, front office. There is so much that goes into winning titles.


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You are correct. There is a lot that goes into it. Much like there is a lot that goes into what makes a player great. Part of what made Jordan so great was his ability to elevate the people he did. His will to win. His competitiveness. That isn’t hyperbole. You knew when you were watching him he didn’t want to just beat you, he wanted to destroy you truly. That isn’t a skill that can be tracked by statistic. That’s why it’s all subjective.

Imo if you had a draft of every player in the NBA history Lebron would go 1. He should based on his skillset. I would still even to this day bet in that scenario Jordan would win more than Lebron. That chip on his shoulder would be huge with anyone being picked ahead of him and drive him to greatness. Lebron would still have his great career no doubt. But it’s just splitting hairs. It’s all preference. I prefer to get the guy that continually wins whether you need scoring, rebounding, assists, or defense. There wasn’t a phase of the game he took off at any point no matter who they were playing. But I wouldn’t blame anyone for wanting Lebron. Much like I don’t blame the Rockets for wanting Olajuwon. They got a hall of famer that won two titles. Trailblazers are another story.


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[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,220]

You are correct. There is a lot that goes into it. Much like there is a lot that goes into what makes a player great. Part of what made Jordan so great was his ability to elevate the people he did. His will to win. His competitiveness. That isn’t hyperbole. You knew when you were watching him he didn’t want to just beat you, he wanted to destroy you truly. That isn’t a skill that can be tracked by statistic. That’s why it’s all subjective.

Imo if you had a draft of every player in the NBA history Lebron would go 1. He should based on his skillset. I would still even to this day bet in that scenario Jordan would win more than Lebron. That chip on his shoulder would be huge with anyone being picked ahead of him and drive him to greatness. Lebron would still have his great career no doubt. But it’s just splitting hairs. It’s all preference. I prefer to get the guy that continually wins whether you need scoring, rebounding, assists, or defense. There wasn’t a phase of the game he took off at any point no matter who they were playing. But I wouldn’t blame anyone for wanting Lebron. Much like I don’t blame the Rockets for wanting Olajuwon. They got a hall of famer that won two titles. Trailblazers are another story.


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I’m not saying MJ isn’t the best. Just he had good teams to win titles. And adding to that, a weaker league.


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[Brass Cannon 24,068]

6 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

I’m not saying MJ isn’t the best. Just he had good teams to win titles. And adding to that, a weaker league.


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He was in a less athletic league. Not necessarily a weaker league. 

[HoosierAloha 29,897]

There are a lot of teams today that would curl up in the fetal position and quit if they faced a team as physical as that Pistons squad.


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[Stuhoo 75,677]

19 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

There are a lot of teams today that would curl up in the fetal position and quit if they faced a team as physical as that Pistons squad.


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There's a lot of MMA fighters that would curl up in the fetal position and quit if they faced a team as physical as that Pistons squad.

[jk34 1,105]

48 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

I’m not saying MJ isn’t the best. Just he had good teams to win titles. And adding to that, a weaker league.


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How did you come to the conclusion that the league was weaker then?

[Brass Cannon 24,068]

3 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

There's a lot of MMA fighters that would curl up in the fetal position and quit if they faced a team as physical as that Pistons squad.

If the 2020 all stars played the 1990 All stars the winner would depend on which era the refs came from. 90s refs and the 2020 all stars don’t survive. 2020 refs and the 90s all stars foul out before second half
 

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,220]

How did you come to the conclusion that the league was weaker then?

You can just go back and look at team records. There are 3 more teams now than there were in day the Bulls first title season though. So it changes things. But teams still played the same number of games.


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[Brass Cannon 24,068]

1 minute ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:

You can just go back and look at team records. There are 3 more teams now than there were in day the Bulls first title season though. So it changes things. But teams still played the same number of games.


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Talent pool has expanded greatly since then. I would imagine their are about the same number of Americans in the league.