Serious Question

[HoosierAloha 29,880]

7 hours ago, HoosierHoopster said:

Nope you're right on shooting percentages, I re-checked and I added wrong on the PSU game. So correct, our 3-p percentage for the 1st 6 games of conf isn't what I thought it was  -- (not great, but I'm still more concerned about our having taken less shots in 21).

But while we're on the subject of digging in and admitting things, do you acknowledge that:

- in 2020 we lost by significantly more points through the first 6, each by at least 7 points (compared to 2021, by 3, 5 and 9, leaving aside the huge lead we had @Wisc). and of course we're undefeated at home - you think this team loses to NW at home?

- in 2021 we've won by significantly more points through the 1st 6 -- 36 in 2021 to 18 in 2020. Right? We barely won by 2 against PSU at home in OT, and lost to NW in 2020. That's pretty clearly different to me.

What is wrong with any of the below, and how do they not reflect a better team, so far, 6 games into conf?

Who and by what margin did we lose to through the first 6 games?

2020 Losses: 74-67 (by 7) to that powerhouse, Northwestern; At Ill (69-60); At Wisconsin 80-73.

2021: Losses: At Wisc 64-59 (and we were up big); At PSU 61-58; At Iowa 83-74.

So, we lost at home to NWU in 2020, and each of the 3 losses were by at least 7. 2021: the losses were by 3, 5 and 9.

Yeah, that's obviously better. We're undefeated at home. We've lost by less and were in every game except 2nd half Iowa. We should've won the @Wisc game, and were right in the @PSU game.

What about comparing the W's through the 1st 6 Con games?

2020 Wins: 87-85 over PSU in OT, 63-55 MD,. 84-76 At Neb.

2021 Wins: 68-55 Neb, 67-51 #13 OSU, 73-60 Minn.

So, clearly better home W's as well, through the 1st 6 games. The @Neb game should factor in here, tomorrow. I think the team will step up and get the W, we'll see.

No, I'm not "mad," but I do get kinda tired of the repeated negative posts that simply ignore the several points that reflect a stronger team. It gets old. End of the day I think we all want our team to win and win well.

I'll give it a go, first off I hate that we're even having this discussion because it means we're attempting to polish a turd to make it a little prettier, nitpicking between an absolute shitty season and one we're hoping gets better.

Losses

Both seasons we lost to Wiscy, once by 5 and once by 7. As USPS informed us yesterday, the game last season went 2OT before IU lost by 7. The game last season was against a higher ranked Wiscy team at the same location with better results (?)

Outcome - last season better loss (**** that is painful to type)

Last season @ Ill and this season @ Iowa, we lost both games by 9 and I'm saying Ill last season was better than Iowa this season, although I wouldn't be surprised if Iowa was ranked soon.

Outcome - last season better loss

Last season at home to NW vs. this season PSU on the road. Those are both bad.

Outcome - this season better loss

Wins

We'll take both of the Nebrasketball games, I'll take the roadie here

Outcome - last season better win

An OT win over PSU or a solid win over Minny?

Outcome - this season better win

A trouncing of O$U at home or a solid win over MD? I'll argue that O$U hasn't looked the same since returning from their COVID pause but that is a better win than MD last season

Outcome - this season better win

Results

Last season we had better losses 2-1 (yuck) and this season we have better wins 2-1. Are we improved? I think we've slightly improved but not sure how much we've really improved or if comparing losses and wins is the best metric to decide how much we've improved.

[HoosierHoopster 5,985]

2 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

I'll give it a go, first off I hate that we're even having this discussion because it means we're attempting to polish a turd to make it a little prettier, nitpicking between an absolute shitty season and one we're hoping gets better.

Losses

Both seasons we lost to Wiscy, once by 5 and once by 7. As USPS informed us yesterday, the game last season went 2OT before IU lost by 7. The game last season was against a higher ranked Wiscy team at the same location with better results (?)

Outcome - last season better loss (**** that is painful to type)

Last season @ Ill and this season @ Iowa, we lost both games by 9 and I'm saying Ill last season was better than Iowa this season, although I wouldn't be surprised if Iowa was ranked soon.

Outcome - last season better loss

Last season at home to NW vs. this season PSU on the road. Those are both bad.

Outcome - this season better loss

Wins

We'll take both of the Nebrasketball games, I'll take the roadie here

Outcome - last season better win

An OT win over PSU or a solid win over Minny?

Outcome - this season better win

A trouncing of O$U at home or a solid win over MD? I'll argue that O$U hasn't looked the same since returning from their COVID pause but that is a better win than MD last season

Outcome - this season better win

Results

Last season we had better losses 2-1 (yuck) and this season we have better wins 2-1. Are we improved? I think we've slightly improved but not sure how much we've really improved or if comparing losses and wins is the best metric to decide how much we've improved.

End of the day all we have is W’a and L’s, and we’ll have to see how the season goes.

I clearly see the team, season and strengths so far differently, (we’re again only talking about offense now and there’s simply no honest way to argue our D isn’t better), but yep, we’ll just have to keep waiting to see how it all pans out 

[IU_FanClub 1,643]

On 1/15/2022 at 10:31 AM, IUFAN1976 said:

After reading this question, I wanted to answer it first before I read the others comments from their posts.  I for one agree with you, everything is fixable and we have been right there with a chance to win those 4 road loses.  I for one believe in CMW and staff will get this straightened out and we will see a different team by mid-February and March.  This is a new staff and they are trying to undo the embedded mind set and culture of the current players and that takes time; however, we as a fanbase have done without consistently winning for so long, we have little to no patients.  I think we are just waiting for this thing to go off the rails just like the last several seasons, each just may be the start of this trend.  The last 4-6 years and even longer has really left a bad taste in our mouths that may take years to undo, just like what CMW has to do with reshaping the program and culture.

What it comes down to is a total lack of trust that the current Administration and coaching staff will get it done. Not to mention we want to start winning now!

I do think CMW and company will get it done, we just have to trust him and show patients.

Actually, this was a very good question and I am glad someone had finally asked it!

I definitely agree with you that there is a PTSD factor from the last 5 years or so that's why I've been trying to be as open minded about this season as possible knowing it's a new staff and they're trying to build a whole new culture

[IUFAN1976 2,226]

1 hour ago, IU_FanClub said:

I definitely agree with you that there is a PTSD factor from the last 5 years or so that's why I've been trying to be as open minded about this season as possible knowing it's a new staff and they're trying to build a whole new culture

Patience is a virtue 

[IUFAN1976 2,226]

Here is a series question:

If we loose tonight at Nebraska, will that be considered a bad lose?

[HoosierAloha 29,880]

28 minutes ago, IUFAN1976 said:

Here is a series question:

If we loose tonight at Nebraska, will that be considered a bad lose?

Bad loss according to who? If we lose tonight it will be a bad loss by any metric. Nebrasketball is 200+ in the NET, 150+ in KenPom. If we are loose with the rock like we were against Iowa and Syracuse it will be difficult to overcome away from Assembly Hall, even against a bad Nebrasketball team.

[HoosierHoopster 5,985]

4 hours ago, HoosierAloha said:

Bad loss according to who? If we lose tonight it will be a bad loss by any metric. Nebrasketball is 200+ in the NET, 150+ in KenPom. If we are loose with the rock like we were against Iowa and Syracuse it will be difficult to overcome away from Assembly Hall, even against a bad Nebrasketball team.

Well we won, so ....

[HoosierAloha 29,880]

Well we won, so ....

A roadie!! No bad loss too!!


Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners mobile app

[Old Friend 8,389]

6 hours ago, HoosierAloha said:

Bad loss according to who? If we lose tonight it will be a bad loss by any metric. Nebrasketball is 200+ in the NET, 150+ in KenPom. If we are loose with the rock like we were against Iowa and Syracuse it will be difficult to overcome away from Assembly Hall, even against a bad Nebrasketball team.

And Johnson had 5 more turnovers.   We have one point guard who's a hot headed punk that's careless, selfish, and reactionary.  Another who's lost all confidence and couldn't throw it in the ocean from the beach.  And another who couldn't guard a concrete block.

[jk34 1,105]

14 minutes ago, Old Friend said:

And Johnson had 5 more turnovers.   We have one point guard who's a hot headed punk that's careless, selfish, and reactionary.  Another who's lost all confidence and couldn't throw it in the ocean from the beach.  And another who couldn't guard a concrete block.

I endorse this message!

Absolutely average, at best, point guards. I would take either pg we have committed, right now. Regardless of their age.

[HoosierAloha 29,880]

And Johnson had 5 more turnovers.   We have one point guard who's a hot headed punk that's careless, selfish, and reactionary.  Another who's lost all confidence and couldn't throw it in the ocean from the beach.  And another who couldn't guard a concrete block.

This is not an endorsement of X.

I believe a few of his TOs at Neb were pretty poor officiating. It’s amazing how the defenders feet kept getting tangled up with his. One of the three are typically called what they are, a foul.

This isn’t a new issue. He was doing these stupid things early in the season and it was never corrected. If you’re continuously playing out of control against cupcakes it’s going to carry over to the conference season. This should have been addressed and wasn’t.


Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners mobile app

[MikeRoberts 6,832]

3 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

This is not an endorsement of X.

I believe a few of his TOs at Neb were pretty poor officiating. It’s amazing how the defenders feet kept getting tangled up with his. One of the three are typically called what they are, a foul.

This isn’t a new issue. He was doing these stupid things early in the season and it was never corrected. If you’re continuously playing out of control against cupcakes it’s going to carry over to the conference season. This should have been addressed and wasn’t.


Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners mobile app

It’s him though.

he swings his leg/foot towards the defender like he’s trying to get tangled up. I know that sounds crazy but he brings on weird contact. Many players try to draw contact at the hoop, he does it all over the floor and sometimes it works Nd other times it’s a turnover.

[DChoosier 7,053]

1 hour ago, Old Friend said:

And Johnson had 5 more turnovers.   We have one point guard who's a hot headed punk that's careless, selfish, and reactionary.  Another who's lost all confidence and couldn't throw it in the ocean from the beach.  And another who couldn't guard a concrete block.

Yep, I’ve previously posted that our upside is limited by our PG play. It most likely is not going to change as they have collectively played D1 ball for 7 years and are basically performing true to to form. That being said, overall the team has shown the ability/potential  to go dancing this year which would be a good start for Woody.

[hoosierbgh 1,227]

On 1/14/2022 at 12:00 PM, IU_FanClub said:

Obviously it's no secret that IU fans are about as passionate as it gets. My question is why do we as a fanbase have to lose our heads and act like the season is over after every loss? Did we play well last night? No of course not. Do we have issues on the road? Definitely. But we're 12-4 and the issues are clearly fixable. Why can't we just enjoy the ups and downs of the season and ride with the team instead of questioning the very existence of the program after every bad game? This team is very close to being very good and for as bad as we've played in some of these road games we've had chances to win every single one of them. It's completely reasonable to think they can fix some of the issues and get some real momentum going here. We got a big week ahead of us let's enjoy the season Go Hoosiers!

There's a variety of reasons for people losing their minds after a loss. For most, it is simply a matter of venting frustration. Though there are certainly better ways to do it, Twitter and message boards make it all too easy and is largely harmless. Some are entitled and pitch a fit when they don't get what they want. Others simply like to b**** and moan. Some of these are simply "half empty" types, others adopt the attitude as a coping mechanism to deal with the bad seasons and still others are "cool kids" who think criticizing everything makes them cool. Then there are those who think that they are coaches, they always know the one correct play, can always recruit the best players, and can also motivate and coach less talented players to be far better than they are. Nevermind that they've either never actually done it or weren't nearly as successful as they like to think they were if they have. Lastly, there are those that simply lack perspective, who apparently haven't watched enough basketball to know that stuff happens sometimes, that no team plays perfect every game.

All of those will be back fully into the fold if the team puts it together like you and I think they will... at least until the next loss. 

[HoosierAloha 29,880]

1 hour ago, hoosierbgh said:

There's a variety of reasons for people losing their minds after a loss. For most, it is simply a matter of venting frustration. Though there are certainly better ways to do it, Twitter and message boards make it all too easy and is largely harmless. Some are entitled and pitch a fit when they don't get what they want. Others simply like to b**** and moan. Some of these are simply "half empty" types, others adopt the attitude as a coping mechanism to deal with the bad seasons and still others are "cool kids" who think criticizing everything makes them cool. Then there are those who think that they are coaches, they always know the one correct play, can always recruit the best players, and can also motivate and coach less talented players to be far better than they are. Nevermind that they've either never actually done it or weren't nearly as successful as they like to think they were if they have. Lastly, there are those that simply lack perspective, who apparently haven't watched enough basketball to know that stuff happens sometimes, that no team plays perfect every game.

All of those will be back fully into the fold if the team puts it together like you and I think they will... at least until the next loss. 

Basketball knowledge between coaches and fans has shrunk over the years for a myraid reasons. You can watch more games in an evening now than you could in a week back in the 80s or even early 90s. YouTube and social media has provided clips of instruction on what good basketball looks like. College basketball analytics can be found on numerous sites to determine proper shot selection, defense, and lineups. The "coach forgot more about basketball than you'll ever know" meme is cringe worthy.

The difference between an actual coach and us coaching from our couches is the relationships. Knowing who is doing what in practice and on their own to get better. Looking in the eyes of their players to determine who will get the bucket or stop in crunch time. Knowing when to be tough on an individual player and when to give them love. Those skills are developed with the interactions you have with your players.

We have a range of fans on here who go from checking in to post their prediction and a post they're happy we won to those that like to breakdown IU and other games, to the extreme who watch every game and predict the field of 64 err 68.

It's not a secret that we've stumbled and bumbled our way through a lot of games this season. There are numerous examples this season where we continue to make the same boneheaded mistake that cost us. I'm extremely happy we got the roadie at Nebraksetball but we were far from "clean" or even an above average game. We're continuing to make the same mistakes and hoping for the best. That's not winning basketball. We didn't do enough to break the "pressure" from Iowa on the road. These are the little things that can take an average Big 1.o team to an above average, solid seed in the tourney team. I want IU to get back to the consistent tourney team and not hoping the other team makes enough mistakes we get the win.

[HoosierHoopster 5,985]

40 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

 

The difference between an actual coach and us coaching from our couches is the relationships. Knowing who is doing what in practice and on their own to get better. Looking in the eyes of their players to determine who will get the bucket or stop in crunch time. Knowing when to be tough on an individual player and when to give them love. Those skills are developed with the interactions you have with your players.

 

OK, just no. Anyone on here thinking they're equivalent to a major D1 coach, and but for relationships (??), is living in la la land. Come on now.

[HoosierAloha 29,880]

4 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

OK, just no. Anyone on here thinking they're equivalent to a major D1 coach, and but for relationships (??), is living in la la land. Come on now.

What does a coach know that you can't find readily available online or watching film. It's there. You have people making a living by this and you have fans. The difference is the time they put in. You have people breaking film down and providing it on Twitter. Do they not have the knowledge of the game? Yes, all of the information and knowledge is there for anyone to learn.

Coaching is not some mystical job role for only the chosen ones. It's just not that way anymore. You could probably develop a program that could manage a baseball team almost as well as a human, possibly better. We can continue to live in the past or we could actually come out of the dark ages and evolve.

[hoosierbgh 1,227]

6 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

Basketball knowledge between coaches and fans has shrunk over the years for a myraid reasons. You can watch more games in an evening now than you could in a week back in the 80s or even early 90s. YouTube and social media has provided clips of instruction on what good basketball looks like. College basketball analytics can be found on numerous sites to determine proper shot selection, defense, and lineups. The "coach forgot more about basketball than you'll ever know" meme is cringe worthy.

The difference between an actual coach and us coaching from our couches is the relationships. Knowing who is doing what in practice and on their own to get better. Looking in the eyes of their players to determine who will get the bucket or stop in crunch time. Knowing when to be tough on an individual player and when to give them love. Those skills are developed with the interactions you have with your players.

We have a range of fans on here who go from checking in to post their prediction and a post they're happy we won to those that like to breakdown IU and other games, to the extreme who watch every game and predict the field of 64 err 68.

It's not a secret that we've stumbled and bumbled our way through a lot of games this season. There are numerous examples this season where we continue to make the same boneheaded mistake that cost us. I'm extremely happy we got the roadie at Nebraksetball but we were far from "clean" or even an above average game. We're continuing to make the same mistakes and hoping for the best. That's not winning basketball. We didn't do enough to break the "pressure" from Iowa on the road. These are the little things that can take an average Big 1.o team to an above average, solid seed in the tourney team. I want IU to get back to the consistent tourney team and not hoping the other team makes enough mistakes we get the win.

There's a whole lot more to coaching than simply watching games or even understanding the X's and O's. One might as well suggest that simply watching Lebron play allows them to duplicate his performance. They not only don't know what they don't know, they don't even have an inkling that there may even be something they don't know. Many would be coaches don't seem to grasp that the outcome of even the best called play is subject to events out of the coach's control. They mistake rote memorization or knowing WWBKD for actual coaching ability, never actually considering there are a multitude of factors they didn't even consider. It is easy to convince one's self that they are a great coach with the benefit of hindsight and no repercussions for being wrong. 

While relationship's and knowing your players is certainly part of it, there is far more to it than that. There's feel for the game. There's decision making. There's knowledge of the opposing coach and team as well as the officiating crew. And many other small but important things. 

We all want IU to not only get back to the tournament consistently but to also be a threat for a deep run in the tournament. Some can appreciate the process to get there, enjoy the improvement of a flawed team, and know that there will be ups and downs along the way. Some cling to unreasonable expectations and entitled attitudes. Others await every setback, just for the chance to b**** and moan. 

[HoosierAloha 29,880]

Knowledge of the opposing coach, players, and officiating crew is a part of relationships. Again, a lot of that is film study and knowing their tendencies. We're to the point that computers can learn that... almost like intuition where you could know the likelihood of what play they'll run in different situations. Crazy!

Coaches, especially at the power 5 level, are typically the best at their craft. However, they're far from flawless and make mistakes. It's crazy how quickly a talking head will point out a good or bad play, the adjustment coaches need to make, or when a team needs to ride a hot hand. It's almost like they know the game and they're not a coach!

How many people were yelling at their screens to get someone in the middle of the court to break Iowa's full-court "pressure?" I guess we didn't know what we were talking about because we are not coaches. The game has advanced, everything surrounding the game has advanced, let's catch up in our thinking and advance too. If not, I guess we can keep pointing to banners of yesteryear and hoping things will be different.

 

[IUFAN1976 2,226]

I just want to point out that teams get better as a season goes on or should get better.  This is a new coaching staff trying to put their system in place. We will have ups and downs but I do believe this team will get better. They may not win Thursday, they may not win the B10, they may not win the B10 tournament, and all those are likely scenarios; however, they will improve and continue to compete in their remaining games.  
 

Take the 81 championship team, and don’t get me wrong, I am not trying to compare this teams personnel and outcome to their season to this current team.  This team had an overall record of 26-9, not bad.  But during their non conference season, they went 7-5 and got beat by Texas Rio Grand Valley their last nonconference game just before the B10 season and they totally dropped out of the top 20 rankings.  The players decided to have a team meeting and they finally started pulling in the same direction and went 14-4 to win the B10 and National Title.

My point is, give this coaching staff and team time to gel before all the armchair coaches start criticizing.

I hope the point guard position is the one that improves the fastest, they are killing us!