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58 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Ohh ohh ohh…. I want to rail on Twitter so badly. And yeah, Indiana fans that want or expect a powerhouse program are the worst…….

 

In all honesty, most of us can watch and evaluate basketball and talent.  The W/L is a measuring stick.  But we can tell.  Just Watch the product.  Indiana is a bit bipolar this season, more than Archie’s slow motion trainwreck.  We’ve played some good ball and a lot of terrible ball.  If you are a fan content to be a NCAA fringe/hopeful  you are getting what you expect. You can enjoy the ride and sit on the edge of your seat come selection Sunday.  If you are a fan that wants us to be and behave like a blue blood you are mostly disappointed all the time because we aren’t and don’t even try to act like it anymore.  
 

Therefore, reset your expectations to “maybe making the tournament” and the Indiana fanbase can be happy again.  Win/win/win but with a lot of losses on the court and particularly on the RoAd!!!!!

 

It is what it is and we are what we are... We'll win the off-season soon enough

The wins will come when we start playing good basketball. I didn't expect us to be world beaters this season. I did expect us to improve on a few areas of the game that have been turrble the last handful of seasons and were mentioned by the coaching staff. It's concerning how we look in some of these games, even the wins against inferior talent early in the season. I guess we can always go back to the standard IU response that HELP IS ON THE WAY!

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This is so much more nuanced than you're making it out to be though. Like, who honestly has their expectations at "maybe making the tournament"? Every single poster here wants what you want, or we wouldn't be here. 

The honest expectations of many are to just make the tournament. Even the majority of BTBanners. We are a middle of the pack big ten team. We are a fringe tournament team that is poised to lose (by far) its best player. This is a year we need to expect more. Do we project to be better next year losing TJD and others? Not likely. Then what? Expectations to be middle of the pack again? It never changes. We don’t recruit like a top program, we don’t act like one, so the big question is why do I think we will ever be one? (Lol, that’s on me). It’s an enjoyable ride for me and maybe others even if frustrated twice a week by them. I’m still rooting them on. I’m hoping my caring and by proxy all the fans caring can eventually bring the program back and not lose it off the deep end. We keep saying time is dwindling with each hire. Expectations definitely are slipping. It’s a slippery slope until it never comes back. Maybe we are there already.


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39 minutes ago, bigrod said:

It's also much tougher when they play a really good half and then crap all over the court the next half.

This might be the most accurate description of this team that has been posted on this forum.

We have enough talent to win in the Big 1.o. There are plenty of programs who would trade most of our players for their players right now. Teams we have been losing against. We like to excuse it over and over and over. That has caused us to move from an elite program to just another Big 1.o program comparing ourselves to programs like Iowa, Rutger, Minny, and other below average Big 1.o programs.

I thought we might have something when Woody benched the starters for a stretch. I was fooled into thinking a message had been sent and we would see the team respond. We went on to beat those cupcakes but didn't actually change anything. We don't use the strengths of our players and help to hide their weaknesses during the season. We allow them to expand their game in season while costing the team playing proper basketball and rack up wins. Our coaches are not putting players in the right position to excel. We lack quality leadership with a starting 5 that are all far older than your typical starting 5. I remember the "grown men" talk in our cupcake stroll but that has quickly disappeared. Awesome that we see our players go after an opponent at halftime but maybe step up when the clock is running. We are mentally weak.

I believe a massive issue with IU fans and our passion is everyone sees the product on the floor for what it is. There are those that call it out while the others call them out in hopes that we're not seeing the same **** different season show, again.

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13 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:


The honest expectations of many are to just make the tournament. Even the majority of BTBanners. We are a middle of the pack big ten team. We are a fringe tournament team that is poised to lose (by far) its best player. This is a year we need to expect more. Do we project to be better next year losing TJD and others? Not likely. Then what? Expectations to be middle of the pack again? It never changes. We don’t recruit like a top program, we don’t act like one, so the big question is why do I think we will ever be one? (Lol, that’s on me). It’s an enjoyable ride for me and maybe others even if frustrated twice a week by them. I’m still rooting them on. I’m hoping my caring and by proxy all the fans caring can eventually bring the program back and not lose it off the deep end. We keep saying time is dwindling with each hire. Expectations definitely are slipping. It’s a slippery slope until it never comes back. Maybe we are there already.


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The expectations this year are to make the tournament. Is that not realistic after the dumpster fire that the last few years turned into? How could anyone reasonably look at the makeup of this roster and expect this team to compete for championships at the conference or national level this year? Sure, we all want that, but that just seems completely outside of reality and setting up for disappointment imo. Like you, I still really enjoy the ride even though this team frustrates the hell out of me and most (all?) of us.

Every single person here expects to be at the top tier of college basketball in the big picture though. I really don't think there's any question about that.

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38 minutes ago, NashvilleHoosier said:

I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not, but either way count me in the category of the "worst of the worst" b/c I absolutely want and expect a powerhouse program (though I suppose we could dig in to what one defines "powerhouse" as but I'll skip those semantics for now). And I'll go to my grave believing it's 100% reasonable to have that expectation for this program. 

That should've always been the expectation from top down.  I think it may be too late though, we've botched too many hires and for too long had an administration that seemed to be careless at best or an active hindrance at worst.

  

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17 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:


The honest expectations of many are to just make the tournament. Even the majority of BTBanners. We are a middle of the pack big ten team. We are a fringe tournament team that is poised to lose (by far) its best player. This is a year we need to expect more. Do we project to be better next year losing TJD and others? Not likely. Then what? Expectations to be middle of the pack again? It never changes. We don’t recruit like a top program, we don’t act like one, so the big question is why do I think we will ever be one? (Lol, that’s on me). It’s an enjoyable ride for me and maybe others even if frustrated twice a week by them. I’m still rooting them on. I’m hoping my caring and by proxy all the fans caring can eventually bring the program back and not lose it off the deep end. We keep saying time is dwindling with each hire. Expectations definitely are slipping. It’s a slippery slope until it never comes back. Maybe we are there already.


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We've been there for a hot minute. We like to repaint it, dress it up, and then hype it up in hopes that it'll change but we really haven't done anything to change it. The only thing that makes us any different than other middle of the pack Big 1.o teams is the fan base and history. This little visual says it all.

Screen Shot 2022-01-14 at 3.25.33 PM.png

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26 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

It is what it is and we are what we are... We'll win the off-season soon enough

The wins will come when we start playing good basketball. I didn't expect us to be world beaters this season. I did expect us to improve on a few areas of the game that have been turrble the last handful of seasons and were mentioned by the coaching staff. It's concerning how we look in some of these games, even the wins against inferior talent early in the season. I guess we can always go back to the standard IU response that HELP IS ON THE WAY!

The wins just included a trouncing of OSU, and we’re already, right now, one of the best defensive teams in DI. 
It’s the gross overreaction to losses, including the “when we begin to play well” or we’re terrible mantra that’s frankly annoying. Acknowledge the good while criticizing the bad you know, makes the after any loss sky is falling we’re mediocre posts easier to consider 

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15 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

The wins just included a trouncing of OSU, and we’re already, right now, one of the best defensive teams in DI. 
It’s the gross overreaction to losses, including the “when we begin to play well” or we’re terrible mantra that’s frankly annoying. Acknowledge the good while criticizing the bad you know, makes the after any loss sky is falling we’re mediocre posts easier to consider 

I've actually given them props in the game thread when they had stretches of good basketball. We actually started the Iowa game out well before reverting back to the shitting all over the court. O$U has a good ranking with some great noncon wins. They're not the same team after coming back from their COVID pause. Struggling mightily @Nebrasketball, the trouncing at IU, not impressing against a NW team, and then losing against Wiscy. That WAS a good win though! The team actually took care of the ball and hit free throws, is that enough praise for your liking?

Edit: I'll even throw in the Minny game as being good. Their coach knew they didn't have a chance if they went straight up with our bigs. They dared us to win from outside and we were able to hit enough while taking care of the ball to win.

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33 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

We've been there for a hot minute. We like to repaint it, dress it up, and then hype it up in hopes that it'll change but we really haven't done anything to change it. The only thing that makes us any different than other middle of the pack Big 1.o teams is the fan base and history. This little visual says it all.

Screen Shot 2022-01-14 at 3.25.33 PM.png

Sad to see how far we’ve fallen. As many national titles as the rest of the Big 10 combined but we haven’t sniffed the tournament for almost six years and have only sniffed a few over the past decade. 

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20 minutes ago, JSHoosier said:

That should've always been the expectation from top down.  I think it may be too late though, we've botched too many hires and for too long had an administration that seemed to be careless at best or an active hindrance at worst.

  

Yet we still have everything necessary to be a powerhouse in place and at our disposal. The only thing missing is the winning. Until those other things go away, it will remain a reasonable expectation. 

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The expectations this year are to make the tournament. Is that not realistic after the dumpster fire that the last few years turned into? How could anyone reasonably look at the makeup of this roster and expect this team to compete for championships at the conference or national level this year? Sure, we all want that, but that just seems completely outside of reality and setting up for disappointment imo. Like you, I still really enjoy the ride even though this team frustrates the hell out of me and most (all?) of us.
Every single person here expects to be at the top tier of college basketball in the big picture though. I really don't think there's any question about that.

This is all fair. When do we start to realistically expect that? Not next year certainly, as we won’t be preseason top 25. Our recruiting is ok, I suppose. I like to project. Is it year 3 magically? Our 2023 recruiting is ok. I like Newton a lot. Cupps could be good one day? Year 4? I don’t know, Woodson has the pieces this year to where we could be undefeated right now. TJD is a legitimate stud. We’ll be lucky if we have a big as good as him in 10-15 years.

He brought in Bates- love him. He’ll be better next year. Not getting enough time to be comfortable, forcing things, not playing great.

Kopp- mostly been a disappointment on the court.
X- want to like the kid. I do. Just not a great BB player.
Durr- Worst kid getting minutes right now.

This is on Woodson and staff. If we had a couple of transfer pieces turn out differently we are easily top 25 maybe top 10. Who gets the blame for the transfer kids? If we all agree we are mediocre, yet we brought in 2 starters and 1 rotation player then what? Does this build confidence in staff with transfer decisions?


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35 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

I've actually given them props in the game thread when they had stretches of good basketball. We actually started the Iowa game out well before reverting back to the shitting all over the court. O$U has a good ranking with some great noncon wins. They're not the same team after coming back from their COVID pause. Struggling mightily @Nebrasketball, the trouncing at IU, not impressing against a NW team, and then losing against Wiscy. That WAS a good win though! The team actually took care of the ball and hit free throws, is that enough praise for your liking?

Edit: I'll even throw in the Minny game as being good. Their coach knew they didn't have a chance if they went straight up with our bigs. They dared us to win from outside and we were able to hit enough while taking care of the ball to win.

Honestly sounds like you're just minimizing the W's in order to rain negative on the L's. My take, right or wrong.

Hard to ignore we're one of the best defensive teams in the country. The OSU win was a very good W. We're undefeated at home. It's more than some "stretches" of good basketball. 

That's the thing -- we can all see how we fell apart in the second half against Iowa. We all know we're winless so far on the road (should've won that game at Wiscy). We all saw the awful TO's by both our pg's last night. We all know we're not there yet. But hello, it's half way through year 1 under Woodson, we're already a top flight defensive team with mostly the existing roster, Woodson's recruiting has started off well, there are TONS of OBVIOUS reasons to see that we're getting better and have reasons to think we're on a good path.

I just don't buy into all the chicken little stuff. I've watched IU through 3 championships, I've seen us try to regrow after RMK's firing, the runner up finish against MD, the 24-4 squad under Sampson before Sampsongate hit and all terrible academics and thugs under Sampson, the ups and downs under Crean, the dumpster fire of the CAM years. 

With that perspective, I'm pretty optimistic on the outlook under Woodson.

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If we make the tournament this year? We then are playing with house money in that tournament, and year one of the Woody era will be a relative success. 

After that? Success will be continuing progress. 

So, currently we are on track for this year to be a success. HOWEVER, we are not that far into "we're gonna make the tourney" territory. We gotta keep winning at a reasonable rate that will allow us to finish 10-10 or better in conference. 

A win against Nebraska would cover for a split the next weekend against UM and Undue Purversity.

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This is all fair. When do we start to realistically expect that? Not next year certainly, as we won’t be preseason top 25. Our recruiting is ok, I suppose. I like to project. Is it year 3 magically? Our 2023 recruiting is ok. I like Newton a lot. Cupps could be good one day? Year 4? I don’t know, Woodson has the pieces this year to where we could be undefeated right now. TJD is a legitimate stud. We’ll be lucky if we have a big as good as him in 10-15 years.

He brought in Bates- love him. He’ll be better next year. Not getting enough time to be comfortable, forcing things, not playing great.

Kopp- mostly been a disappointment on the court.
X- want to like the kid. I do. Just not a great BB player.
Durr- Worst kid getting minutes right now.

This is on Woodson and staff. If we had a couple of transfer pieces turn out differently we are easily top 25 maybe top 10. Who gets the blame for the transfer kids? If we all agree we are mediocre, yet we brought in 2 starters and 1 rotation player then what? Does this build confidence in staff with transfer decisions?


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We praise the staff for getting anyone on short notice and drum up the rhetoric of how bad we would be for not getting them.

This is done because we like the new staff. We forget how stoked we were to land these transfers. We forget how much we hyped this staff for being able to snag who they wanted quickly. We forget how much we hyped the team in the off-season and revert back to the expectations not being that high.

We’ll cycle this in a few months with guards dominating the college game and just needing serviceable bigs next season. We’ll talk up the transfers and how our young guards will run the Big 1.o even though not highly ranked and lacking an inside presence. When the games start we’ll dominate some phat cupcakes and call out anyone who voices the flaws. When we don’t win as much as we should we’ll blame youth and talent while getting beat by teams with half as much talent. Good times.


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17 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:


This is all fair. When do we start to realistically expect that? Not next year certainly, as we won’t be preseason top 25. Our recruiting is ok, I suppose. I like to project. Is it year 3 magically? Our 2023 recruiting is ok. I like Newton a lot. Cupps could be good one day? Year 4? I don’t know, Woodson has the pieces this year to where we could be undefeated right now. TJD is a legitimate stud. We’ll be lucky if we have a big as good as him in 10-15 years.

He brought in Bates- love him. He’ll be better next year. Not getting enough time to be comfortable, forcing things, not playing great.

Kopp- mostly been a disappointment on the court.
X- want to like the kid. I do. Just not a great BB player.
Durr- Worst kid getting minutes right now.

This is on Woodson and staff. If we had a couple of transfer pieces turn out differently we are easily top 25 maybe top 10. Who gets the blame for the transfer kids? If we all agree we are mediocre, yet we brought in 2 starters and 1 rotation player then what? Does this build confidence in staff with transfer decisions?


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I agree that this can be put on Woodson and staff, but at the same time would also say it would've been a miracle if they had actually turned last year into a top-10 team this year. This team should be a top-25 team, agree. They've pissed too many games down their leg and that part falls on this staff absolutely. I'm not a big projection guy over things I have no control over though. Your projection is more than fair, but what if we bring in some big time transfer or a late-in-the-cycle freshman ala Bates or TJD comes back? That's just a difference in how we view things, but things can always change and you can pretty much count on the unexpected.

I guess I'm saying I'm more of the belief that year-by-year I base my expectations on what's right in front of me when it comes to each individual IU team. In the grand scheme, my expectation shifts to being back to perennially elite when we make a tournament run with Woody. I had that expectation with Crean and he eventually failed. 

Maybe it's a "rolling expectation" that this program should be elite. Maybe that's a cop out. Maybe hope or want is the word instead of expectation? Idk. I'm not sure if any of what I wrote even makes sense. I do know that we all want the same thing though.

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Honestly sounds like you're just minimizing the W's in order to rain negative on the L's. My take, right or wrong.
Hard to ignore we're one of the best defensive teams in the country. The OSU win was a very good W. We're undefeated at home. It's more than some "stretches" of good basketball. 
That's the thing -- we can all see how we fell apart in the second half against Iowa. We all know we're winless so far on the road (should've won that game at Wiscy). We all saw the awful TO's by both our pg's last night. We all know we're not there yet. But hello, it's half way through year 1 under Woodson, we're already a top flight defensive team with mostly the existing roster, Woodson's recruiting has started off well, there are TONS of OBVIOUS reasons to see that we're getting better and have reasons to think we're on a good path.
I just don't buy into all the chicken little stuff. I've watched IU through 3 championships, I've seen us try to regrow after RMK's firing, the runner up finish against MD, the 24-4 squad under Sampson before Sampsongate hit and all terrible academics and thugs under Sampson, the ups and downs under Crean, the dumpster fire of the CAM years. 
With that perspective, I'm pretty optimistic on the outlook under Woodson.

“Tons of obvious reasons to see we are getting better”??

Are we watching the same team? We’ve had good moments and good performances. But many of the same problems continue to creep up. We haven’t won a game on the road. This includes a historically bad half allowing Wisconsin their best comeback win of all time. Losing to a not too good Penn State team in an empty gym. A bad Syracuse team that will miss the tourney. A decent Iowa team that was suppose to be junk. Ohio State was a very nice win. But it’s a home win. They will return serve if we play there.


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6 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:


We praise the staff for getting anyone on short notice and drum up the rhetoric of how bad we would be for not getting them.

This is done because we like the new staff. We forget how stoked we were to land these transfers. We forget how much we hyped this staff for being able to snag who they wanted quickly. We forget how much we hyped the team in the off-season and revert back to the expectations not being that high.

We’ll cycle this in a few months with guards dominating the college game and just needing serviceable bigs next season. We’ll talk up the transfers and how our young guards will run the Big 1.o even though not highly ranked and lacking an inside presence. When the games start we’ll dominate some phat cupcakes and call out anyone who voices the flaws. When we don’t win as much as we should we’ll blame youth and talent while getting beat by teams with half as much talent. Good times.


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But what's the problem with any of that? That's just how sports message boards work.

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9 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:


This is all fair. When do we start to realistically expect that? Not next year certainly, as we won’t be preseason top 25. Our recruiting is ok, I suppose. I like to project. Is it year 3 magically? Our 2023 recruiting is ok. I like Newton a lot. Cupps could be good one day? Year 4? I don’t know, Woodson has the pieces this year to where we could be undefeated right now. TJD is a legitimate stud. We’ll be lucky if we have a big as good as him in 10-15 years.

He brought in Bates- love him. He’ll be better next year. Not getting enough time to be comfortable, forcing things, not playing great.

Kopp- mostly been a disappointment on the court.
X- want to like the kid. I do. Just not a great BB player.
Durr- Worst kid getting minutes right now.

This is on Woodson and staff. If we had a couple of transfer pieces turn out differently we are easily top 25 maybe top 10. Who gets the blame for the transfer kids? If we all agree we are mediocre, yet we brought in 2 starters and 1 rotation player then what? Does this build confidence in staff with transfer decisions?


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A poster on a premium board actually did the research and broke down on when most successful college coaches broke through with recruiting and if my memory is correct year 3 is the most important recruiting cycle in almost every successful coaches time.     Year 1 either way doesn’t impact much but year 3 is where coaches need to hit the sweet spot for recruits.  Very insightful and well thought out stuff more then I’m trying to explain.   
 

Transfer Portal is a new thing and with comes risk.   Teams are still learning the best way to use it.  The staff used it to fill holes to fill out a roster.   I would argue if you went this route you should of tried to fill those holes with players from a winning culture and players that have had success.  Instead the staff filled those holes  with players that had probably experienced less winning then the current team had.   

 

 

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Honestly sounds like you're just minimizing the W's in order to rain negative on the L's. My take, right or wrong.
Hard to ignore we're one of the best defensive teams in the country. The OSU win was a very good W. We're undefeated at home. It's more than some "stretches" of good basketball. 
That's the thing -- we can all see how we fell apart in the second half against Iowa. We all know we're winless so far on the road (should've won that game at Wiscy). We all saw the awful TO's by both our pg's last night. We all know we're not there yet. But hello, it's half way through year 1 under Woodson, we're already a top flight defensive team with mostly the existing roster, Woodson's recruiting has started off well, there are TONS of OBVIOUS reasons to see that we're getting better and have reasons to think we're on a good path.
I just don't buy into all the chicken little stuff. I've watched IU through 3 championships, I've seen us try to regrow after RMK's firing, the runner up finish against MD, the 24-4 squad under Sampson before Sampsongate hit and all terrible academics and thugs under Sampson, the ups and downs under Crean, the dumpster fire of the CAM years. 
With that perspective, I'm pretty optimistic on the outlook under Woodson.

Has O$U looked the same after returning from COVID? They haven’t looked good and they haven’t really played against great teams in those games. It’s not minimizing the win. It’s stating how they currently are as a team. I’d love to say they were playing at their best and we trounced them. That’s just not the truth though. We more than took care of business in that game. We played great, maybe our best game of the year.

Our defensive numbers are fantastic! That is something we can agree on.

We didn’t just fall apart in the second half against Iowa. It’s kind of a microcosm of the season and how we view this team. We went into the half up and many thought it was all great. We were turning it over, not defending, and playing bad basketball. The writing was all over Carver-Hawkeye Arena that we were struggling, despite our lead, for anyone willing to see it. Shockingly, our inability to do the little things that have been talked about since early in the season reared it’s ugly head. We didn’t value the basketball (turnovers for touchdowns) we didn’t match their energy (they’re OR% had to be close to 50% in the second half) and we forgot you actually have to get the ball through the rim for the free throw to count. We had more breaks than you typically get on the road in the Big 1.o and we still embarrassed ourselves. Ouch.

See above post about next season. We’ll need impact players to stay a fringe tourney team. I don’t see many currently signed that are the difference. We’ll be able to hype it up to convince most though.


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A poster on a premium board actually did the research and broke down on when most successful college coaches broke through with recruiting and if my memory is correct year 3 is the most important recruiting cycle in almost every successful coaches time.     Year 1 either way doesn’t impact much but year 3 is where coaches need to hit the sweet spot for recruits.  Very insightful and well thought out stuff more then I’m trying to explain.   
 
Transfer Portal is a new thing and with comes risk.   Teams are still learning the best way to use it.  The staff used it to fill holes to fill out a roster.   I would argue if you went this route you should of tried to fill those holes with players from a winning culture and players that have had success.  Instead the staff filled those holes  with players that had probably experienced less winning then the current team had.   

 
 

You touch on all points. Year 3 makes most sense pre free market. Free market changes EVERYTHING. You can get experienced guys at any position. Basketball takes a few stars and great role players. Much can be accomplished or dissembled in 1 off season. I think our staff kinda missed on our transfers. Maybe not missed, but didn’t knock it out of the park. What could have been? Maybe next season as we try to replace TJD?


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