IUBB vs #13/12 Ohio State - 01/06/22 @ 7:00 on FS1

[Demo 17,432]

6 hours ago, MikeRoberts said:

This is the play people keep talking about as an example of Phin doing good things despite his 1-6 shooting and 0 assists. He got absolutely blown by 1x1 at the top of the arc, didn’t recover and forced Geronimo to come over and save him - causing a bad pass that landed halfway between Liddell and Phin who finally got back

Finally just got done watching the game. That was an entertaining watch. Thought IU played about 34 mins of good basketball. 
Couple of things on your point on this play: 1) I doubt this is news, but the best defensive player you have ever seen in your entire life, for me that’s Scottie Pippen, has gotten beaten many, many times. Sometimes it’s bad fundamentals. Sometimes a screen doesn’t get called. Sometimes the offensive player is just better. In this case, Phinisee got beat because he closed out too high and off balance. 2) Geronimo rotated a step late, but Branham bails him out by electing to go all the way with it when he had an open 10 footer. Branham probably should have tried to finish it, but Geronimo may have blocked it, so he feeds Liddell. If you’re saying that was a sloppy pass, you’re just wrong. That would have hit Liddell at the waist, except Phinisee rotated to his help, which is exactly what he’s supposed to do, got there at the same time as the ball and forced the scramble tie up. That’s the breakdown of the play.
His shooting’s a problem, absolutely. His lack of vision is an issue. But he played a terrific defensive game. You just can’t say he didn’t. His dig tie up of Liddell was textbook. He made a great close out on Young in a scramble that took away an open 3. He was better getting through screens playing Johnson than anyone else, by far. And he stayed frontal on Wheeler way more easily than X did. He contributed. 

[Demo 17,432]

2 hours ago, Stuhoo said:

I agree with u there!

Parker Stewart is an infinitely better shooter and maker than Phinisee.

If the question is “why doesn’t Stewart shoot more and Phinisee shoot less?” There is a real reason.

Im sure the staff would love to get Stewart more  looks. Stewart gets game planned  by the opposition—they don’t ever double off of him and his shot opportunities are limited as a result.

I think what the staff would love is for Stewart to take the looks he gets. He passed up 3 looks in this game. 2 in the 1st half. They ran him off a double pin down onto the wing and he had a clean look. He passed it up and fed the roll man, Trayce, who got fouled. Then they ran a stagger for him. He caught it at the top with space and on time and, again fed Trayce on the roll for a layup. You can argue he made the right play both times. But they ran stuff to get him looks, they worked, and he passed them up. We can’t complain about him not getting looks if he’s turning down looks. And the wide open elbow jumper he passed up at the beginning of the 2nd half was inexcusable. No shooter passes that up. 

[Stuhoo 75,677]

21 minutes ago, Demo said:

I think what the staff would love is for Stewart to take the looks he gets. He passed up 3 looks in this game. 2 in the 1st half. They ran him off a double pin down onto the wing and he had a clean look. He passed it up and fed the roll man, Trayce, who got fouled. Then they ran a stagger for him. He caught it at the top with space and on time and, again fed Trayce on the roll for a layup. You can argue he made the right play both times. But they ran stuff to get him looks, they worked, and he passed them up. We can’t complain about him not getting looks if he’s turning down looks. And the wide open elbow jumper he passed up at the beginning of the 2nd half was inexcusable. No shooter passes that up. 

It’s almost like he practiced year with a Archie and learned to be scared to let it fly

[IUFAN1976 2,265]

30 minutes ago, Demo said:

I think what the staff would love is for Stewart to take the looks he gets. He passed up 3 looks in this game. 2 in the 1st half. They ran him off a double pin down onto the wing and he had a clean look. He passed it up and fed the roll man, Trayce, who got fouled. Then they ran a stagger for him. He caught it at the top with space and on time and, again fed Trayce on the roll for a layup. You can argue he made the right play both times. But they ran stuff to get him looks, they worked, and he passed them up. We can’t complain about him not getting looks if he’s turning down looks. And the wide open elbow jumper he passed up at the beginning of the 2nd half was inexcusable. No shooter passes that up. 

I agree, I thought the same thing!  He needs to shoot more when he’s open instead of passing them up!  He is too good of a shooter

[MikeRoberts 6,834]

50 minutes ago, Demo said:

Finally just got done watching the game. That was an entertaining watch. Thought IU played about 34 mins of good basketball. 
Couple of things on your point on this play: 1) I doubt this is news, but the best defensive player you have ever seen in your entire life, for me that’s Scottie Pippen, has gotten beaten many, many times. Sometimes it’s bad fundamentals. Sometimes a screen doesn’t get called. Sometimes the offensive player is just better. In this case, Phinisee got beat because he closed out too high and off balance. 2) Geronimo rotated a step late, but Branham bails him out by electing to go all the way with it when he had an open 10 footer. Branham probably should have tried to finish it, but Geronimo may have blocked it, so he feeds Liddell. If you’re saying that was a sloppy pass, you’re just wrong. That would have hit Liddell at the waist, except Phinisee rotated to his help, which is exactly what he’s supposed to do, got there at the same time as the ball and forced the scramble tie up. That’s the breakdown of the play.
His shooting’s a problem, absolutely. His lack of vision is an issue. But he played a terrific defensive game. You just can’t say he didn’t. His dig tie up of Liddell was textbook. He made a great close out on Young in a scramble that took away an open 3. He was better getting through screens playing Johnson than anyone else, by far. And he stayed frontal on Wheeler way more easily than X did. He contributed. 

I don’t disagree with much of your analysis. Much of my points and beef is with Phin’s offense. Holds onto the ball too long, not overly creative, doesn’t move well off the ball and takes way too many shots for someone that shoots as poorly as he does.

I watch him on defense even more. He does do some nice things on the defensive end but I think he gets even way to much credit there. He is one of our better defenders but people talk about his defense like he is Scottie Pippen or even all bigten level which he isn’t and not even on that tier. 
He may have recovered to get the tie up but the whole play happened because he got beat off the dribble and the offensive player didn’t finish the play, not because he did something great like many on here would like us to believe. 

[HoosierHoopster 6,063]

1 hour ago, Demo said:

Finally just got done watching the game. That was an entertaining watch. Thought IU played about 34 mins of good basketball. 
Couple of things on your point on this play: 1) I doubt this is news, but the best defensive player you have ever seen in your entire life, for me that’s Scottie Pippen, has gotten beaten many, many times. Sometimes it’s bad fundamentals. Sometimes a screen doesn’t get called. Sometimes the offensive player is just better. In this case, Phinisee got beat because he closed out too high and off balance. 2) Geronimo rotated a step late, but Branham bails him out by electing to go all the way with it when he had an open 10 footer. Branham probably should have tried to finish it, but Geronimo may have blocked it, so he feeds Liddell. If you’re saying that was a sloppy pass, you’re just wrong. That would have hit Liddell at the waist, except Phinisee rotated to his help, which is exactly what he’s supposed to do, got there at the same time as the ball and forced the scramble tie up. That’s the breakdown of the play.
His shooting’s a problem, absolutely. His lack of vision is an issue. But he played a terrific defensive game. You just can’t say he didn’t. His dig tie up of Liddell was textbook. He made a great close out on Young in a scramble that took away an open 3. He was better getting through screens playing Johnson than anyone else, by far. And he stayed frontal on Wheeler way more easily than X did. He contributed. 

Dead on.

People really need to give Rob credit. He almost always plays solid D, and he's clearly contributing and was a major factor in our separation in the second half, we needed him, he delivered.

[Stuhoo 75,677]

1 hour ago, MikeRoberts said:

I don’t disagree with much of your analysis. 

So…

you agree?

[HoosierHoopster 6,063]

1 minute ago, Stuhoo said:

So…

you agree?

I don't contradict you

[MikeRoberts 6,834]

42 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

So…

you agree?

Yes, Scottie Pippen was one of my favorite players and a hell of a defender!

[DWB 1,098]

I just finished watching the game for the 3rd time, and kept my eyes on P Stew & Kopp. And then watched Galloway take everybody to school on what hustle can do for you.

If you watch the speed of Stewart's and Kopp's cuts on offense, it's less than ½ the speed of Galloway's cuts (and Leal too, when he plays) If you are objective in watching Galloway vs Kopp or Stewart, or even X for that matter, Galloway is a better overall player. He can't shoot as well as Parker, but probably not far behind Kopp, but more than makes up for that deficientcy with defense and offensive hustle. 

Galloway had a team high 4 assists in only 19 minutes against OSU. And his defense was every bit as good (and IMO much better) than Stewart of Kopp's. And he had the 3rd best point total for the game as well. And that's after being on the sidelines for 5-6 weeks.

If any body needs more minutes, it's Trey.

[IUFAN1976 2,265]

11 minutes ago, DWB said:

I just finished watching the game for the 3rd time, and kept my eyes on P Stew & Kopp. And then watched Galloway take everybody to school on what hustle can do for you.

If you watch the speed of Stewart's and Kopp's cuts on offense, it's less than ½ the speed of Galloway's cuts (and Leal too, when he plays) If you are objective in watching Galloway vs Kopp or Stewart, or even X for that matter, Galloway is a better overall player. He can't shoot as well as Parker, but probably not far behind Kopp, but more than makes up for that deficientcy with defense and offensive hustle. 

Galloway had a team high 4 assists in only 19 minutes against OSU. And his defense was every bit as good (and IMO much better) than Stewart of Kopp's. And he had the 3rd best point total for the game as well. And that's after being on the sidelines for 5-6 weeks.

If any body needs more minutes, it's Trey.

I don’t think anyone is arguing with you, you definitely proved your point!

starting lineup:

x, Stewart, Galloway, Race, Trayce.  When you bring in Kopp, he only comes in for Stewart.  

[HoosierHoopster 6,063]

16 hours ago, DWB said:

I just finished watching the game for the 3rd time, and kept my eyes on P Stew & Kopp. And then watched Galloway take everybody to school on what hustle can do for you.

If you watch the speed of Stewart's and Kopp's cuts on offense, it's less than ½ the speed of Galloway's cuts (and Leal too, when he plays) If you are objective in watching Galloway vs Kopp or Stewart, or even X for that matter, Galloway is a better overall player. He can't shoot as well as Parker, but probably not far behind Kopp, but more than makes up for that deficientcy with defense and offensive hustle. 

Galloway had a team high 4 assists in only 19 minutes against OSU. And his defense was every bit as good (and IMO much better) than Stewart of Kopp's. And he had the 3rd best point total for the game as well. And that's after being on the sidelines for 5-6 weeks.

If any body needs more minutes, it's Trey.

But you can't just gloss over the shooting part, and there's nothing so far to reach the conclusion that that he's probably not far behind Kopp as a shooter. Kopp is in the range of a 40% outside shooter, Galloway hasn't shown any level of even decent outside shooting -- and I like Galloway a lot for all the reasons you mention. On very limited shot attempts so far this season, Galloway's shot "looks" better to me, but there's zero evidence to say he can shoot like either Kopp or Stew, those guys are proven, consistent outside shooters.

The team is set up to create spread by having the outside shooters on the floor - Stew and Kopp in the starting lineup, the problem has been that despite that we're still shooting by numbers at the bottom of the conference. If that's going to stay constant then I would agree it makes sense to consider replacing Kopp or may Stew with Galloway, if you're not shooting then what's the point?

But that's a little more complex of an issue, imo. We've seen several games where the blame fairly lies directly on TJD for not pushing the ball back out for inside-out play, when either or both Kopp and Stew are open, too much emphasis on inside play without the outside shooting due largely to TJD. Then we've seen games, like against OSU, where Stew is passing up open outside shots, often to catch a cutting TJD -- which for the most part worked and we won but then goes back to why not Galloway (but then he was out there finishing the game anyway, so now we're just talking about who starts as opposed to who plays the most minutes).

On top of all of this, Galloway played fantastic -- but in ONE game. I'm definitely hoping we see the same kind of level of play today from him, but we shouldn't just assume that. Minn will have scouted the OSU game, they will (should) game plan for him. OSU couldn't and didn't. Let's see how Galloway performs over the next several games, let's see how he's defended.

[lillurk 3,686]

Good spirited discussion. Couple things:

1. This is trite but this team needs all three of Stewart, Kopp, and Galloway at the 2/3. In Galloway’s two games back, total minutes: Stewart 48, Kopp 43, Galloway 41. If anything the return from injury and his late entrance vs. OSU probably mean that understates where he stands. Who starts is interesting, worth thinking about, and Galloway has a different skill set than the other two. But I like him as a spark off the bench, and if the X/Rob/Gallo/Race/TJD lineup continues to suffocate teams, I LOVE it to close with a comfortable lead.

2. there have been some oblique comments from CMW, TJD, and Rob himself about being less than 100% until recently and it really seems like he’s getting there. Also lol’d at Woody saying something like “it’s okay to be good,” as a thing he’s told Rob. Someone (we know who) really wrecked his confidence. As @Stuhoo said, his ideal role is probably off the ball on offense, and wrecking your opponent’s ability to get into their offense by guarding the point. Galloway’s ball-handling and passing means you can almost keep Rob in that role all the time: keep him alongside at least one of Galloway or X.

[Stuhoo 75,677]

3 minutes ago, lillurk said:

Also lol’d at Woody saying something like “it’s okay to be good,” as a thing he’s told Rob. Someone (we know who) really wrecked his confidence. 

Josh knows who wrecked Phinisee’s confidence!

TELL EM JOSH!!

[Josh 12,380]

5 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

Josh knows who wrecked Phinisee’s confidence!

TELL EM JOSH!!

 

[Stuhoo 75,677]

3 minutes ago, Josh said:

 

Damn straight, brother 

[HoosierAloha 29,897]

Good spirited discussion. Couple things:
1. This is trite but this team needs all three of Stewart, Kopp, and Galloway at the 2/3. In Galloway’s two games back, total minutes: Stewart 48, Kopp 43, Galloway 41. If anything the return from injury and his late entrance vs. OSU probably mean that understates where he stands. Who starts is interesting, worth thinking about, and Galloway has a different skill set than the other two. But I like him as a spark off the bench, and if the X/Rob/Gallo/Race/TJD lineup continues to suffocate teams, I LOVE it to close with a comfortable lead.
2. there have been some oblique comments from CMW, TJD, and Rob himself about being less than 100% until recently and it really seems like he’s getting there. Also lol’d at Woody saying something like “it’s okay to be good,” as a thing he’s told Rob. Someone (we know who) really wrecked his confidence. As [mention=1447]Stuhoo[/mention] said, his ideal role is probably off the ball on offense, and wrecking your opponent’s ability to get into their offense by guarding the point. Galloway’s ball-handling and passing means you can almost keep Rob in that role all the time: keep him alongside at least one of Galloway or X.

What would you do to get things going earlier in the halves? Seems like we struggle with any movement early in the halves.

There might be some truth but seems like an excuse to both. He’s been hurt and he’s been neutered by the previous coach has been a theme. If the last coach really held him back so much why didn’t he transfer? Why didn’t something come out before? It just seems too convenient or it might be part of the voodoo to try to build him up? Odd


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[Stuhoo 75,677]

2 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

What would you do to get things going earlier in the halves? Seems like we struggle with any movement early in the halves.

There might be some truth but seems like an excuse to both. He’s been hurt and he’s been neutered by the previous coach has been a theme. If the last coach really held him back so much why didn’t he transfer? Why didn’t something come out before? It just seems too convenient or it might be part of the voodoo to try to build him up? Odd


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I think a good part of the answer is Phinisee’s personality. He is not a complainer on his worst day. He has never been an alpha personality. Probably thought it was his fault, not a leave the program issue.

But Woody and Fife are bringing out some dog in him.

And damn, he can defend.

[HoosierAloha 29,897]

I think a good part of the answer is Phinisee’s personality. He is not a complainer on his worst day. He has never been an alpha personality. Probably thought it was his fault, not a leave the program issue.
But Woody and Fife are bringing out some dog in him.
And damn, he can defend.

Something just seems off with that.

He’s not a complainer but not an alpha and thought it was his fault? Where are these things coming from?

His defense has always been there, confidence nor injury took that away.

It appears he’s playing better recently and then there’s talk he’s getting healthy and his confidence back after being ruined by the previous staff.

His “better” performance recently has resulted in 33% from the field and from deep.

Now he’s getting the dog brought out of him? What is the evidence in that? The defense? Shooting more? Wishful thinking? Projecting until he gets there?


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[Stuhoo 75,677]

21 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

…
He’s not a complainer but not an alpha and thought it was his fault…

His defense has always been there, confidence nor injury took that away…

It appears he’s playing better recently and then there’s talk he’s getting healthy and his confidence back…
 

Was that from your post?  Because it reads like the transcript of an Archie Miller assessment of him.  

;)