Point Guard Play: 2021-22

[go iu bb 4,776]

3 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

Yup...Woody, after consulting with

1. Matta,
2. Yas,
3. Kenya,
4. Fife, and
5. Armond Hill

... have buried Lander on the bench for now.

That's over 50 years of college coaching experience and over 50 years of NBA coaching experience behind that decision.

Let's not forget that he didn't play much last season, either, at around 10 mpg in those that he did play in. So that was another coaching staff that didn't think he was ready for a lot of PT.

[Stuhoo 75,428]

8 minutes ago, JSHoosier said:

We saw first hand a person can be on Izzo's bench and manage to learn absolutely nothing, in fairness.  Matta absolutely knows what's he's watching though, and he he's not a coach but has their ear if they have any sense at all.

Crean learned plenty from Izzo -- Crean's teams play well on offense and they usually play with toughness. 

Defense? Not so much.

Crean's biggest flaw? His ability to be self-aware and connect with recruits and in-state coaches. Not in his ability.

[Stuhoo 75,428]

Just now, go iu bb said:

Let's not forget that he didn't play much last season, either, at around 10 mpg in those that he did play in. So that was another coaching staff that didn't think he was ready for a lot of PT.

Yes, but note that I said they've buried him on the bench for now. Woody has made it clear that down the road, when a player is best suited to contribute that player will play.

[Stuhoo 75,428]

 

By the way, in its first day this thread is en fuego.

Good stuff, y'all!

 

[RaceToTheTop 23,458]

Just now, Stuhoo said:

Yes, but note that I said they've buried him on the bench for now. Woody has made it clear that down the road, when a player is best suited to contribute that player will play.

We’ve seen him do that with Leal.  I hope Lander eventually can earn PT.  Right now it just seems that some people want him to play based on someone else not playing well in their opinion and not so much because Lander has played well and deserves it.

[IU Scott 2,375]

56 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

I’m not all that interested in a ‘back in the day’ conversation, but transfers aren’t anything new. Coaches can leave schools whenever they want. Scholarships are year to year. Our best point guard is a transfer. If a player thinks he’s good enough to play now but isn’t playing you’re going to have a hard time convincing him to ride the bench. 5 star players don’t come to schools to ride the bench, especially when the guy playing in front of them is as mediocre as Rob Phinisee. They’re going to leave for a better fit. Lander may be a better fit at an ACC or SEC school where the conference play doesn’t resemble tackle football. 

You might not to hear about back in the day but it is obvious the product we see on the court today is far inferior than it was in the 80's and 90's. It is not because the players back then wad fat Superior but the great players stayed in the same place for 3 or 4 years.  Yes, there were transfers back then but not even close to what we see now.  Most of it back then was guys who didn't see the court at a major school transferring a level down.  When you had your best players staying you could build a team that played well together.  Today you really are building a roster ever year causing poor team building.

[IGotMeAWoody 231]

2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

You might not to hear about back in the day but it is obvious the product we see on the court today is far inferior than it was in the 80's and 90's. It is not because the players back then wad fat Superior but the great players stayed in the same place for 3 or 4 years.  Yes, there were transfers back then but not even close to what we see now.  Most of it back then was guys who didn't see the court at a major school transferring a level down.  When you had your best players staying you could build a team that played well together.  Today you really are building a roster ever year causing poor team building.

I've heard on podcasts that some coaches aren't going to use all 13 scholarships anymore. They might use 10 on real players and give the last 3 to walk-ons because with the transfer market no coach will keep 13 scholarship-worthy players happy. It'll be interesting to see if this really becomes a thing.

[Hoosierfan2017 19,857]

4 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

You might not to hear about back in the day but it is obvious the product we see on the court today is far inferior than it was in the 80's and 90's. It is not because the players back then wad fat Superior but the great players stayed in the same place for 3 or 4 years.  Yes, there were transfers back then but not even close to what we see now.  Most of it back then was guys who didn't see the court at a major school transferring a level down.  When you had your best players staying you could build a team that played well together.  Today you really are building a roster ever year causing poor team building.

Great players aren’t staying in college 3 or 4 years anymore, for the most part. I wasn’t even alive in the 80s so can’t comment on the quality of play back then, but guys stayed in college longer back then. One and dones weren’t really a thing. So, I’m not sure that transfers are really the problem here but rather the NBA.

But you do have programs that keep good players around for 3-4 years. Villanova does it. Michigan State does it. Other programs that I can’t think of off the top of my head do it. We just haven’t been a great program for a while. I’m not even the biggest fan of the transfer portal. I don’t think you can rely on the portal because guys from there often come with some warts. We see it in Xavier Johnson. He’s obviously our most talented point guard but he has some warts that make him frustrating and inconsistent. 

[HoosierHoopster 5,987]

11 minutes ago, Stuhoo said:

Yes, but note that I said they've buried him on the bench for now. Woody has made it clear that down the road, when a player is best suited to contribute that player will play.

The bolded part - for now - is where I am fwiw. 

I am somewhere in the middle here. Seems like there's a lot of positioning in this discussion way out on either end.

Lander is a high-level talent. He's shown 'flashes' of outstanding vision. He wasn't rated one of the best point guards in his class by some fluke, he has extreme speed, court and play-making awareness, and his potential is clearly there. 

But we know he came in a skinny 17-year old re-classified kid. The people saying look, he didn't play last year, are just ignoring that. He was not ready, then, for the college game. 

And now, he's improved, he shown those flashes, but he's still basically a frosh, he makes 'frosh' mistakes, and his D has a ways to go. He also plays too fast -- it's the reason he's turned it over and made other offensive mistakes. The college game has not yet slowed down for him.

So Woodson and staff have 2 veteran points, and they're playing them. Rob is excellent on D, and particularly when playing with X makes us better and more efficient on both sides of the ball.

I don't think we should be playing Lander to avoid him transferring (assuming that's in play), but on the flip side, I also don't like the DNPs. Maybe it's a coaches tool, earn the PT by developing his D in practices etc., or maybe there's something else going on, whatever it is, to me, the DNP's need to end at some point. He has played well at times in his limited minutes this season. He's also not played so well. Same was true of Leal, fwiw.

So staff is playing experience (just like starting Kopp every game even when he plays poorly). And the vets have by and large played well together (especially with Rob and X on the court together). And we're 9-2 with those very close losses thrown in. So I don't fault the staff, but still, at some point, Lander should be playing. I don't buy into the idea guys develop in practice without playing. They really don't, and Lander has the talent and could be excellent by next season.

[HoosierAloha 29,880]

Wait, Matta is now advising on players or he’s prepping to become an AD?


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[Alford Bailey 12,219]

100% believe Lander isn’t playing for good reason. Analysts got it wrong with him. He was not a 5 star PG. don’t see him as a starting pg at this level if he transfers either. I think he could go mid major and make some noise his junior and senior year though. Big time recruiting Miss for us.

[Stuhoo 75,428]

11 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

Wait, Matta is now advising on players or he’s prepping to become an AD?


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He’s regularly hanging out with the bball staff. I sure as hell hope he’s offering an opinion when asked.

[Hoosierfan2017 19,857]

Phinisee simply isn’t good enough to justify Lander not playing at all. He just isn’t. We’ve seen what Phinisee is. He’s played 94 college games. He’s a mediocre backup on a mediocre team. He’s shooting worse than he ever has, and he’s never been a good shooter. 

If people think Lander is a bust and shouldn’t play because he sucks then I understand that. I don’t agree with that opinion, but I understand it. However, if people think Lander has talent and a promising future, then I don’t see how those people could think him racking up DNPs is good for him or for the program. His biggest problem is adjusting to the speed of the college game, and you don’t do that on the bench. 

[Alford Bailey 12,219]

8 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Phinisee simply isn’t good enough to justify Lander not playing at all. He just isn’t. We’ve seen what Phinisee is. He’s played 94 college games. He’s a mediocre backup on a mediocre team. He’s shooting worse than he ever has, and he’s never been a good shooter. 

If people think Lander is a bust and shouldn’t play because he sucks then I understand that. I don’t agree with that opinion, but I understand it. However, if people think Lander has talent and a promising future, then I don’t see how those people could think him racking up DNPs is good for him or for the program. His biggest problem is adjusting to the speed of the college game, and you don’t do that on the bench. 

Phinisee is bad and it says a lot about Lander that he can’t take those minutes. 2 completely different coaching staffs have rarely  put him on the floor. Two big recruiting misses that in part led to us bringing in X.

[Hovadipo 52,824]

24 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

Wait, Matta is now advising on players or he’s prepping to become an AD?


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Can he not do both..?

[IU Scott 2,375]

1 hour ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Great players aren’t staying in college 3 or 4 years anymore, for the most part. I wasn’t even alive in the 80s so can’t comment on the quality of play back then, but guys stayed in college longer back then. One and dones weren’t really a thing. So, I’m not sure that transfers are really the problem here but rather the NBA.

But you do have programs that keep good players around for 3-4 years. Villanova does it. Michigan State does it. Other programs that I can’t think of off the top of my head do it. We just haven’t been a great program for a while. I’m not even the biggest fan of the transfer portal. I don’t think you can rely on the portal because guys from there often come with some warts. We see it in Xavier Johnson. He’s obviously our most talented point guard but he has some warts that make him frustrating and inconsistent. 

I day this in our seriousness, I truly feel sorry for the younger fans who weren't able the watch quality college basketball.  Also feel for those young IU fans who haven't been able to see what it is like to see IU being great looks like.

To me what we see on the court today is not really basketball at all.  Basketball is supposed to be about movement both player and the ball. Bit was not supposed to be about one on one play and dribbling the sir out of the ball.

[go iu bb 4,776]

57 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

But we know he came in a skinny 17-year old re-classified kid. The people saying look, he didn't play last year, are just ignoring that. He was not ready, then, for the college game. 

And now, he's improved, he shown those flashes, but he's still basically a frosh, he makes 'frosh' mistakes, and his D has a ways to go. He also plays too fast -- it's the reason he's turned it over and made other offensive mistakes. The college game has not yet slowed down for him.

He isn't basically a freshman. He's now a sophomore making freshman mistakes. Just because he could've played another year in HS and have been a freshman this year doesn't mean he's a freshman because he didn't do that. He's technically a freshman in eligibility but he still has a year of game experience behind him so that is better even than a typical redshirt. The improvement you see is because he did come early, not in spite of it. If he hadn't come early we'd be seeing last year's Lander instead of this years.

I hope he stays and continues to improve. The problem I see is that now it's two coaching staffs who would rather play Phinisee ahead of him and, quite frankly, Phinisee isn't very good. He plays good defense but his shooting is terrible at all distances and the offense often stalls when he's in control. Yet Miller and now Woodson think Phinisee gives them the best chance to win now. Not Lander. 

He didn't make the sophomore leap. Hopefully, he'll make one before his junior season and he's still a Hoosier when he does.

[IUFAN1976 2,227]

18 minutes ago, go iu bb said:

He isn't basically a freshman. He's now a sophomore making freshman mistakes. Just because he could've played another year in HS and have been a freshman this year doesn't mean he's a freshman because he didn't do that. He's technically a freshman in eligibility but he still has a year of game experience behind him so that is better even than a typical redshirt. The improvement you see is because he did come early, not in spite of it. If he hadn't come early we'd be seeing last year's Lander instead of this years.

I hope he stays and continues to improve. The problem I see is that now it's two coaching staffs who would rather play Phinisee ahead of him and, quite frankly, Phinisee isn't very good. He plays good defense but his shooting is terrible at all distances and the offense often stalls when he's in control. Yet Miller and now Woodson think Phinisee gives them the best chance to win now. Not Lander. 

He didn't make the sophomore leap. Hopefully, he'll make one before his junior season and he's still a Hoosier when he does.

I thought Phinesee played his best game of the year and better than any last year. Not to mention, he hit a couple timely 3’s, which could boost his confidence!  I think you writing him off like that is too bad.  I think Phinesee is going to keep improving and prove all the fanbase wrong!

GO HOOSIERS!!!

[HoosierHoopster 5,987]

32 minutes ago, go iu bb said:

He isn't basically a freshman. He's now a sophomore making freshman mistakes. Just because he could've played another year in HS and have been a freshman this year doesn't mean he's a freshman because he didn't do that. He's technically a freshman in eligibility but he still has a year of game experience behind him so that is better even than a typical redshirt. The improvement you see is because he did come early, not in spite of it. If he hadn't come early we'd be seeing last year's Lander instead of this years.

I hope he stays and continues to improve. The problem I see is that now it's two coaching staffs who would rather play Phinisee ahead of him and, quite frankly, Phinisee isn't very good. He plays good defense but his shooting is terrible at all distances and the offense often stalls when he's in control. Yet Miller and now Woodson think Phinisee gives them the best chance to win now. Not Lander. 

He didn't make the sophomore leap. Hopefully, he'll make one before his junior season and he's still a Hoosier when he does.

He is basically a freshman, we disagree, but no issues there, people will disagree. However the scouts did not get it wrong. Just go read one of Rabby’s tweets about the kid he watched in HS, he was exceptional. Whether he can grow into that at the college level remains to be seen

[Hoosierfan2017 19,857]

25 minutes ago, IUFAN1976 said:

I thought Phinesee played his best game of the year and better than any last year. Not to mention, he hit a couple timely 3’s, which could boost his confidence!  I think you writing him off like that is too bad.  I think Phinesee is going to keep improving and prove all the fanbase wrong!

GO HOOSIERS!!!

People have been saying this about Phinisee since January of his freshman year. The sad thing for him is that it was the best game he’s played this year and he went 2-8 from the field. 

He was ranked 135th in his class. It’s much more likely to me that he’s played like the fringe top 150 player he was coming out of high school because that’s the level of player he is than it is that he’s suffered from some unknown confidence issue for the better part of 3 seasons. I don’t even really know how it became a ‘confidence’ talking point in the first place other than fans needing an explanation for his poor play.