Game Thread: vs. Notre Dame 12/18 - 2:30 pm on FOX

[str8baller 4,776]

22 hours ago, Southside said:

Well we were the ones opting out. I personally liked the CC. It sold out every year, and gave all the fans in the state a nice opportunity to converge in one place. IU's "scheduling conflict due to B10 schedule increase" was a bunch of bull IMO. PU has the same challenge. And it wouldn't keep us from a marquee matchup. We could just remove a chump from our schedule if that was the case. Just my opinion, but I think it's a bad move as it removes an opportunity to play in downtown Indy, where many attended, that normally would or could not drive to Btown.

I agree. For more northern fans or fans in Indy without season tix it was always a good chance to watch IU (plus butler and nd). The wife and I always enjoyed coming down for the weekend, getting some last minute xmas shopping and visiting friends. I got to watch IU in the middle of it. 

[DChoosier 7,056]

4 hours ago, Rico said:

As it stands right now, XJ is the 3rd best player on this team.

Agree he is the third best player , after TJD/Race.  Additionally I think he is the second most important player on the team.. X greatly impacts how much higher, or lower, our ceiling can be. He needs to reel it in a bit but he runs the offense better than any of our other options, plays good D and has the bulldog attitude we have been missing since Yogi and Will.

Did he shoot 3’s too early in the clock and does he turn the ball over too much? Absolutely, but booing him was total bush league.

[DChoosier 7,056]

1 hour ago, Rico said:

Lander?

Hard to give 13 guys meaningful minutes and KL and Logan clearly aren’t in the rotation.
KL only played in the Syracuse game after X and Rob both fouled out and didn’t get in yesterday even though Bates and Galloway were not available (ie even though he doesn’t play the same position minutes are soon going to be even harder to find when those guys are back). 
Leal has played himself into the bottom of the rotation, although he might lose time once Galloway is back, but KL and Logan just aren’t in it.

[str8baller 4,776]

14 hours ago, HoosierHoopster said:

 

I don’t understand anyone saying lack of effort. The guys are playing hard.
But, there were several lazy passes early in the 1st, including by TJD that resulted in TO’s and that, along with ND controlling the pace, was why we went down 13-8 and then it spiraled to a 10-point ND lead.

 

 

Sounds to me like you answered your own question. You can’t play hard and make lazy passes. 

Execution often follows effort. You can have effort without execution—think the annoying try-hard at the end of the bench everyone loves but nobody wants to see play much. But you rarely get execution without proper effort. This is doubly true on defense. 
 

Your example is the one I would use. TJD and XJ, two of our leaders on a team with major turnover issues, start the game with horrendously lazy passes that result in…wait for it…you guessed it: more turnovers. Most of the first fifteen minutes went the same.  
 

The mistakes to be avoided aren’t complicated, in this case. It’s the result of low effort and not enough mental  engagement. 

[Alford Bailey 12,259]

Effort is not a problem CMW can solve easily. It’s an ingrained societal issue. I think our effort this year is on par with everything I’ve seen in HS, college or professional sports.

[HoosierHoopster 6,063]

6 minutes ago, str8baller said:

Sounds to me like you answered your own question. You can’t play hard and make lazy passes. 

Execution often follows effort. You can have effort without execution—think the annoying try-hard at the end of the bench everyone loves but nobody wants to see play much. But you rarely get execution without proper effort. This is doubly true on defense. 
 

Your example is the one I would use. TJD and XJ, two of our leaders on a team with major turnover issues, start the game with horrendously lazy passes that result in…wait for it…you guessed it: more turnovers. Most of the first fifteen minutes went the same.  
 

The mistakes to be avoided aren’t complicated, in this case. It’s the result of low effort and not enough mental  engagement. 

I see a lot if effort but at times, and often at the start of games, not enough focus. X tends to play to his emotions, haven’t seen him once play without effort. 

[Uspshoosier 44,292]

Worth pointing out in Xavier’s case that he is being asked to play completely different then what he has played in the past.   That has to be big adjustment that I think some people are over looking.   In years past he was asked to play 32 + minutes a game and be the main scorer and facilitator for his team.  He always had a TO problem at Pitt.   Thinking that would automatically get fixed is a tough ask.    Last year he did lead the acc in assists however he also averaged 3 TO a game.    I would guess his minutes and shot attempts have taken a big hit compared to what he is use to.  Not defending the TO and shots just pointing out changing a way a kid has played for multiple years was always going to be tough. 

[HoosierHoopster 6,063]

8 minutes ago, Alford Bailey said:

Effort is not a problem CMW can solve easily. It’s an ingrained societal issue. I think our effort this year is on par with everything I’ve seen in HS, college or professional sports.

We lost in double OT at Cuse, and were up big at Wisconsin, where we haven’t won in almost 2 decades, but didn’t adjust and played not to lose resulting in a close loss, and are 9-2. I don’t see a lack of effort. 

[DWB 1,098]

This team is a work in progress. We're no where near where Woody wants us, and he's said so many times.

The good news (to me) is that I see progress in each and every game. Once we play a full 40 minutes, we'll be tough to beat, assuming Woody gets them to improve a little each week.

Rome wasn't built in a day (credit to TJD)

[str8baller 4,776]

30 minutes ago, HoosierHoopster said:

X tends to play to his emotions, haven’t seen him once play without effort. 

Go watch his first turnover yesterday. Horrible angle for an entry pass. Instead moving the ball to create an angle and make a good pass he just lazily tosses the ball in. That’s effort. It could have been avoided by putting in more work but he took the easy way out. Same with TJD’s turnover on the next possession.  
 

I agree that effort isn’t typically an issue with him. He’s the epitome of errors of commission. But yesterday they came out unwilling to put in the work to do the small things that lead to proper execution.  
 

If you don’twant to call it effort then whatever…I’m not arguing semantics on here. But it’s the simple type of stuff I see continually reinforced by plenty of good coaches all the way down to the middle school level. It’s generally referred to as effort, or something to that effect, because the problems stem from things the player is capable of doing and knows to do. But they don’t do it because it’s easier not to. Humans will generally take the path of least resistance if given an option. On offense it generally is not moving to improve your position and settling for suboptimal outcomes instead. Those early turnover year were the epitome of that and the type of easily avoidable turnovers this team needs to eliminate (your not going to be able to eliminate XJ’s “turnovers of commission “) for the team to hit their turnover goals and become a tourney type team. 

[Uspshoosier 44,292]

If you are going to  point out effort passes being negative for X you should also point out the effort play that got a jump ball when X dove on the floor to get a tie up at mid court.   This isn’t the old days where you didn’t have to question kids playing hard every possession.   Now days coaches specifically point out and recruit players that show the ability to play hard.  Like it or hate it that’s where the game is.  Notice evaluator's notes when scouting players at events and for the rankings.  It’s no longer assumed kids play hard it’s considered a skill 

[JSHoosier 19,580]

10 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

It’s no longer assumed kids play hard it’s considered a skill 

This says a lot, and nothing good.

[Stuhoo 75,740]

3 minutes ago, JSHoosier said:

This says a lot, and nothing good.

There’s a certain ultra-gifted in-state big that I would prefer we not get due to this issue.

[RaceToTheTop 23,766]

1 hour ago, Uspshoosier said:

Worth pointing out in Xavier’s case that he is being asked to play completely different then what he has played in the past.   That has to be big adjustment that I think some people are over looking.   In years past he was asked to play 32 + minutes a game and be the main scorer and facilitator for his team.  He always had a TO problem at Pitt.   Thinking that would automatically get fixed is a tough ask.    Last year he did lead the acc in assists however he also averaged 3 TO a game.    I would guess his minutes and shot attempts have taken a big hit compared to what he is use to.  Not defending the TO and shots just pointing out changing a way a kid has played for multiple years was always going to be tough. 

Comparing his per minute numbers from Pitt to IU:

Last year per 40 minute numbers:

last year at Pitt:

shots:  14.6;  three point shots:  6.1;  rebounds:  4.8;  assists:  8.0;  turnovers:  4.3;  points 19.8

this year at IU:

shots:  12.5;  three point shots:  3.4;  rebounds:  6.4;  assists:  7.2;  turnovers 5.1;  points 17.6.

He does turn it over at a little higher rate this year, so we'd like that to be fixed, but the truth is he is shooting it less at IU and taking fewer threes.  The ND game was really the only time we had an issue with him taking them -- previously he had been very selective with taking them and he was never a high volume three guy.  From a strictly numbers point this year, it made sense for him to shoot the threes ND was giving him because he was open.  From a more realistic viewpoint, taking into account his shooting motion and the fact he truly isn't as good of a three point shooter as he had been shooting at IU, it didn't make sense for him to shooting that many.

Would like to mention something in Race's favor:  only three three-point attempts in his last five games (out of 44 shots). 

 

[RaceToTheTop 23,766]

18 minutes ago, JSHoosier said:

This says a lot, and nothing good.

I think part of it is AAU ball where the game scores really don't matter much.  Also has devalued regular season high school games IMO because they play against players on the other teams all the time....used to be that games against rival schools meant so much to the players.  Don't think that's the case any more.

[Class of '66 Old Fart 81,096]

I've already lost track of the number of HS games I've watched this season involving kids with IU offers and many that have been mentioned with IU interest.  I'm not qualified to assess their overall basketball abilities but after a game or 2 you can readily see which kids don't really like to mix it up underneath, are hesitant to dive on the floor for a loose ball or just never seem to genuinely run from one end of the court to the other.  I'm not a fan of the basketball factories but those kids play hard all the time because they know they'll be on the bench if they don't.  Doesn't work at the public school level because the drop off in the level of talent is typically to great and the starter who coasts and goes thru the motions is still likely better than his replacement on the bench.

[HoosierAloha 29,897]

If you are going to  point out effort passes being negative for X you should also point out the effort play that got a jump ball when X dove on the floor to get a tie up at mid court.   This isn’t the old days where you didn’t have to question kids playing hard every possession.   Now days coaches specifically point out and recruit players that show the ability to play hard.  Like it or hate it that’s where the game is.  Notice evaluator's notes when scouting players at events and for the rankings.  It’s no longer assumed kids play hard it’s considered a skill 

X definitely plays with effort. I’d place him close to Race in terms of effort. X could put some effort into better focusing his effort for positive outcomes. Although, that lazy jog through the lane Race does once TJD gets the ball in the post drives me nuts.

After those two, it gets spotty with regard to effort. TJD will go through the motions for long stretches but does bring defense around the rim. He’ll sprint the floor on a fast break but goes through phases of jogging up.

Interesting to see us switching almost everything against ND. Earlier in the season (especially against Syracuse) we didn’t really care to fight through easy ball screens. Pretty sure the Cuse guards are wishing they could play against our lazy PnR defense.

We have stretches where we play hard and the RESULTS show. If we played hard and forced the issue we’d benefit a little more from the zebras too.


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[IU Scott 2,375]

I know turnovers is a problem for this team and Johnson but some is making to much of it.  Our best team ever the 75-76 team averaged 16.9 to's a game.  Buckner who is considered one of the best of in IU history averaged 2.7 per game 

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,223]

Is there a team with more 30-35 year old white guys playing than Notre Dame?

[cthomas 5,930]

This thread lately has reminded me of trying to define  pornography:  I can't define it but I know it when I see it. Except at this point, I'm not sure I know what it looks like anymore.