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Hoosierfan1901

Mike Woodson and His Coaching Staff

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40 minutes ago, IUHoosierJoe said:

While I supported Archie until midway through his final year, I never thought he was the best coach available when he was hired.  Chris Beard and Brad Underwood in particular had better track records and probably would have taken the job back then.  And I know people around here don't like Underwood, but I think he is going to have Illinois contending for a long time.  Really glad we have Woodson, though.

Archie didn’t end up working out but at the time of IU hiring him he had a way better track record then the 2 coaches you mentioned.  Archie had multiple ncaa appearances and an elite 8 under his belt while coaching Dayton.   A-10 school but still showed an ability to build a program to consistently make the tourney in a conference that has had success.  It would of been hard for IU to go with coaches that only had only coached Little Rock(although he did beat Purdue) and SF Austin respectively before they would if gotten the IU job.   While those 2 probably ended up being better coaches then Archie at the time IU hired him he was arguably the best choice and the hottest young coach at the time of hire.    Underwood has still never coached past the round of 32 and Beards run with Texas tech happened after Archie was already coach.   

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1 hour ago, IUHoosierJoe said:

Chris Beard and Brad Underwood in particular had better track records and probably would have taken the job back then. 

There is no evidence either Beard or Underwood would have taken the IU job. They both went where the fit was right at that time.

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7 minutes ago, Honkyman said:

There is no evidence either Beard or Underwood would have taken the IU job. They both went where the fit was right at that time.

Underwood just chasing money.  After leaving SF Austin (pretty sure they had to vacate wins his last 2 years) he went to Oklahoma St for 1 year.   Lost in the first round and bounced for more money at Illinois( pretty sure one of his assistants got in trouble that year as well).   I see a pattern with him that probably wouldn’t set well with IUs way of doing things 

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43 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

Underwood just chasing money.  After leaving SF Austin (pretty sure they had to vacate wins his last 2 years) he went to Oklahoma St for 1 year.   Lost in the first round and bounced for more money at Illinois( pretty sure one of his assistants got in trouble that year as well).   I see a pattern with him that probably wouldn’t set well with IUs way of doing things 

Yeah not a great culture fit, perhaps. In Underwood’s defense, the OK St. contract was a real short-term “prove it” situation, with no long-term security or buyout, he had a good Y1, they didn’t pay up, and Illinois did. Given that Illinois is a much better job than OK St. even $/security aside, I find it hard to fault him there.

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5 minutes ago, Honkyman said:

There were some that made that argument. I wasn't one of them.

Personally I was disappointed but willing to wait and see. In hindsight Woodson would’ve been interesting even then and was interested, per Woj’s contemporaneous reporting.

My “realistic” 2017 pick at the time would’ve been Holtmann…maybe it’s true he would not have taken the job under any circumstance, as has been widely rumored. I don’t get the impression IU actually made him say no. In the years since I’ve cooled on him a little — good coach, pretty good IU culture fit, may not have the upside.

I know the Donovan/Albers/horse farm thing is a punchline, but Donovan is who I really wanted, and like Holtmann I don’t know that IU really made the big godfather offer there.

I’m happy where we’re at now, though of course it would’ve been nice if 2017-2021 had been better.

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On 7/13/2022 at 9:07 PM, Demo said:

I went Flyin’ to the Hoop last January, which is a truly great high school event in Dayton. While there I spoke to maybe half a dozen people who, when they found out I followed IU, absolutely GUSHED over Miller. They loved the dude. Made absolutely heartfelt arguments that his issues had to be related to lack of administration.or fan support. When I tried to explain to them that, no, the guy just never connected with the base and didn’t appear to make a wholehearted effort and appeared to lose the team multiple times and just failed straight from the jump, the more receptive folks were simply flabbergasted and a couple told me straight up that they didn’t believe me. One told me that if Miller couldn’t succeed IU was destined to permanent irrelevance. They weren’t nasty, it’s just how highly they think of the guy. It was eye-opening.

My company was a corporate sponsor during the latter Crean and the Archie years and that gave us some “special” access to some things. There was this private practice they did for some sponsors Archie’s first yr and before we had a chance to meet him our rep spent a few minutes letting us know what to expect about him and his personality. While being warned about a lack of personality our rep thought he was just a basketball geek and that would make up for it. 
 

I met him a few times and he always seemed awkward.  Once he was there with Yeagley and a softball coach. Now Yeagley is a huge name here but you would have thought he would have recognized he was the freakin IU basketball coach and showed some enthusiasm. The softball coach was far more engaging. 
 

none of that would have mattered if he could win. Sadly he could not. 

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14 hours ago, Honkyman said:

Archie was arguably the best coach available if IU was intent on going the traditional route of hiring a young coach who appeared to be on the way up. Archie had a very good reputation when IU hired him and it seemed like a very good hire. But, as it turned out, he was too aloof for IU. He didn't seem to connect well with the IU community or even his players. He recruited Indiana's top two players--Romeo Langford and Trayce Jackson Davis--in successive years. But his inability to land other top players hurt performance as did his coaching style. Once Indiana started losing more than the fan base was willing to accept, he wasn't going to survive. 

I'm pretty sure I picked Archie to win the job when we were searching, but never got the warm and fuzzies from it. IIRC, I wanted some of the other big names floating around, and if not them, I think I wanted Marshall. 

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3 hours ago, Southside said:

I'm pretty sure I picked Archie to win the job when we were searching, but never got the warm and fuzzies from it. IIRC, I wanted some of the other big names floating around, and if not them, I think I wanted Marshall. 

I would've loved to hired Marshall, he can flat coach.  I wanted Holtmann more than Miller, but to be honest both were on a list I wanted to see more from.

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18 hours ago, lillurk said:

Personally I was disappointed but willing to wait and see. In hindsight Woodson would’ve been interesting even then and was interested, per Woj’s contemporaneous reporting.

My “realistic” 2017 pick at the time would’ve been Holtmann…maybe it’s true he would not have taken the job under any circumstance, as has been widely rumored. I don’t get the impression IU actually made him say no. In the years since I’ve cooled on him a little — good coach, pretty good IU culture fit, may not have the upside.

I know the Donovan/Albers/horse farm thing is a punchline, but Donovan is who I really wanted, and like Holtmann I don’t know that IU really made the big godfather offer there.

I’m happy where we’re at now, though of course it would’ve been nice if 2017-2021 had been better.

Wasn’t the timing wrong for Holtmann or am I misremembering? I thought we hired Archie then Holtmann jumped ship or vice versa. 

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 Crean is an extrovert, a sunshine pumper.  "It's Indiana!!"

Archie is an introvert.   (*crickets*)   His hiring may have been an opposite pendulum swing from his predecessor in many ways.

They loved him at Dayton because he won, teams improved during the year; didn't curse loudly during games and didn't use wolf whistles at players during games like Brian Gregory.  And he won.

Fans of UD think that Archie Miller lost at IU because of lack of support by the Indiana administration.  Could be right.  I think so, too.  

That and Phin's injuries.  Losing 3 years of a seasoned and excellent PG really sucked.  

That and the unresolved locker room issues...why Archie didn't tell players:  My way or the highway...is also arguable. (ie Administration edict against 'Creaning'?)

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dave from Dayton said:

 Crean is an extrovert, a sunshine pumper.  "It's Indiana!!"

Archie is an introvert.   (*crickets*)   His hiring may have been an opposite pendulum swing from his predecessor in many ways.

They loved him at Dayton because he won, teams improved during the year; didn't curse loudly during games and didn't use wolf whistles at players during games like Brian Gregory.  And he won.

Fans of UD think that Archie Miller lost at IU because of lack of support by the Indiana administration.  Could be right.  I think so, too.  

That and Phin's injuries.  Losing 3 years of a seasoned and excellent PG really sucked.  

That and the unresolved locker room issues...why Archie didn't tell players:  My way or the highway...is also arguable. (ie Administration edict against 'Creaning'?)

 

 

 

I think the administration made things hard on Crean and Archie.  We weren't going to find ways to routinely get the best players paid as the other Blueblood programs were doing.  We were never going to seriously compete in the pre-NIL landscape without a superstar, extraordinary coach with a vision.   I don't believe Archie or Crean to be that. 

Crean motivated certain players to be their best selves.  He relished in the underdog role.  He needed superstars to win big.  (zeller, Yogi, Vic).  He did fairly well with those parameters.  Couldn't seize or maintain momentum.  Missed on so many recruits, probably a lot that took better offers.  

Archie works best with hard nosed players that don't need fluff, almost the opposite type of player Crean excelled with.  He didn't have enough of those types of players.  Archie had soft teams, the opposite of his style.  Who knows if he wanted to do things like his brother Sean, and if so, the FBI sting happened at the worst time for them. Lol. 

Edited by WayneFleekHoosier

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2 hours ago, str8baller said:

Wasn’t the timing wrong for Holtmann or am I misremembering? I thought we hired Archie then Holtmann jumped ship or vice versa. 

Holtmann sat out the hiring cycle — not sure he even really interviewed or got too far with anybody. Then Matta left really late, early June, and Holtmann succeeded him.

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21 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Am I the only one that thinks the Phinisee injury thing gets overplayed? He certainly had more then his share of nagging injuries over his 4 years, no doubt about that. 

But, he also never blew out a knee, tore an Achilles or really had any major injury (except the concussion). He played in 111 games over 4 years. 

Phinisee had plenty of time to show he could be a lead guard at this level, and while I like Phinisee and don't mean this as a post to bash him or anything, the results were below average. 

His shooting numbers, both from the field and beyond the arc, were pretty awful over 111 games. 

I don’t really think Phinisee's injuries had much to do with Archie's lack of success, I think it was way more his inability to recruit a better starting point guard over him. 

Phinisee is a great kid.

He was not a winning P5 starting point guard. An excellent defensive player at any level though.

Archie threw a lot of his eggs in the basket of a player that wasn’t up to the task. And he failed to recognize the failing situation.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Am I the only one that thinks the Phinisee injury thing gets overplayed? He certainly had more then his share of nagging injuries over his 4 years, no doubt about that. 

But, he also never blew out a knee, tore an Achilles or really had any major injury (except the concussion). He played in 111 games over 4 years. 

Phinisee had plenty of time to show he could be a lead guard at this level, and while I like Phinisee and don't mean this as a post to bash him or anything, the results were below average. 

His shooting numbers, both from the field and beyond the arc, were pretty awful over 111 games. 

I don’t really think Phinisee's injuries had much to do with Archie's lack of success, I think it was way more his inability to recruit a better starting point guard over him. 

It gets so massively overplayed. And Phinisee being referred to as an “excellent point guard” just… isn’t true at all. His numbers speak for themselves. He was below average.

During Archie’s 3 seasons Phinisee played in 32/35 games, 27/32 games, and 27/27 games. He played in every game of Archie’s disastrous final season, so I’m not sure how his injuries would’ve affected Archie. 

Like you said, one of Archie’s biggest failures was being unable to recruit a better point guard to replace Phinisee in the starting lineup. It wasn’t for a lack of trying. He tried every year. He just failed.

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4 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Am I the only one that thinks the Phinisee injury thing gets overplayed? He certainly had more then his share of nagging injuries over his 4 years, no doubt about that. 

But, he also never blew out a knee, tore an Achilles or really had any major injury (except the concussion). He played in 111 games over 4 years. 

Phinisee has plenty of time to show he could be a lead guard at this level, and while I like Phinisee and don't mean this as a post to bash him or anything, the results were below average. 

His shooting numbers, both from the field and beyond the arc, were pretty awful over 111 games. 

I don’t really think Phinisee's injuries had much to do with Archie's lack of success, I think it was way more his inability to recruit a better starting point guard over him. 

 Archie Miller did not succeed in getting someone in 'over' Phin.    Al Durham was not the leader or a PG. And Armaan Franklin was a frosh.  And Devonte Green was Devonte Greenish.   And Lander was never ready for prime time.

Thought Phin had two concussions, an abdominal injury, and a foot injury.  The plantar fasciitis issue in his right foot had been a lingering issue.  His first concussion happened midway through his freshman year.

 With all of that, to come back and be a consistently effective shooter is asking a lot.  

I remember not understanding why he was not as quick penetrating and dishing after his first concussion.  Some thought it was a lack of confidence.  I am not sold on that.  Archie just did not play him as much.  Not sure why.

In his sophomore year some fans noted that Phin played through some pain.  I also remember him getting strep throat. 

He seemed to "have it" on defense.  And he was a steadying force on offense.  But as a starting guard he sure didn't put up the points.

Not having a great B10 capable PG year in and year out was bad.  But it was just one of many issues during Archie's coaching stint at IU.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dave from Dayton said:

 Archie Miller did not succeed in getting someone in 'over' Phin.    Al Durham was not the leader or a PG. And Armaan Franklin was a frosh.  And Devonte Green was Devonte Greenish.   And Lander was never ready for prime time.

Thought Phin had two concussions, an abdominal injury, and a foot injury.  The plantar fasciitis issue in his right foot had been a lingering issue.  His first concussion happened midway through his freshman year.

 With all of that, to come back and be a consistently effective shooter is asking a lot.  

I remember not understanding why he was not as quick penetrating and dishing after his first concussion.  Some thought it was a lack of confidence.  I am not sold on that.  Archie just did not play him as much.  Not sure why.

In his sophomore year some fans noted that Phin played through some pain.  I also remember him getting strep throat. 

He seemed to "have it" on defense.  And he was a steadying force on offense.  But as a starting guard he sure didn't put up the points.

Not having a great B10 capable PG year in and year out was bad.  But it was just one of many issues during Archie's coaching stint at IU.

 

 

All players fight through injuries.

If Phinisee was that damaged? His defense would have suffered too. He was a consistently tentative offensive player with a large sample size to prove it.

 

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