Our Upperclassmen’s Regression and a Case for Playing our 2020 Kids More

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,181]

51 minutes ago, JSHoosier said:

Leal is a solid starter?!?  Huh?

In the future. 

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,181]

17 minutes ago, cappymo14 said:

Look, I’m not trying to say that I don’t have any faith in the 2020 class. I think there are some interesting pieces that can give Archie flexibility and depth as they progress defensively. They really all need to do that though...progress defensively...get stronger....slow things down.
What I really think is that the team is 2 games into a 20 game conference schedule. Guys, the freshman are going to get plenty of minutes. This just isn’t an issue. This team is so starved for scoring depth, that those minutes are going to come, ready or not. You often hear about coaches using the bench as a motivator. It works for the young guys too. The upperclassmen will work harder to stay on court, and the younger guys get to learn how to play the game. The guys you are going to see on the court are inevitably going to be the guys working hard in practice and translating that into positive game minutes. It’s not going to come overnight though.


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I'm the sure guys playing now are doing great in practice. But at some point you bench people because they suck in games. 

[ebridges24 2,285]

12 hours ago, Jesus Shuttlesworth said:

Yes.  I have refused to give up on Rob but man at some point....

Hunter has no business playing at this level and the fact that Archie continues to give him minutes is bull****.  His teammates seem to like him.  That’s all I got.

I’m higher on Al than almost everyone on here it seems from what I have read.  He is the definition of a player who is not being put in a position to succeed.  The way Archie utilizes his skill set is tragic.

I'm not asking this to be an a$$, but what do you see as his skill set?

[Honkyman 1,670]

Jerome Hunter is only averaging 15 minutes a game and playing as a substitute for either TJD or Race Thompson because one or the other needs a breather or is in foul trouble.  There is really no other option. Jordan Geronimo has also filled in for them although he is shorter (6'6") and often seems totally lost--still learning the system. This is the problem with Joey Brunk being out--and Brunk is likely gone for the season. Rob Phinisee should be playing behind Kristian Lander and Al Durham should be playing behind Trey Galloway. Rob sometimes plays like he doesn't even want to be on the floor. Al has been playing above his talent level for 3 years. This year he is playing at his talent level.

[HoosierAloha 29,887]

Hopefully, Archie is over at the HYPER looking for a few shooters he can start this coming semester.

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,181]

11 minutes ago, Honkyman said:

Jerome Hunter is only averaging 15 minutes a game and playing as a substitute for either TJD or Race Thompson because one or the other needs a breather or is in foul trouble.  There is really no other option. Jordan Geronimo has also filled in for them although he is shorter (6'6") and often seems totally lost--still learning the system. This is the problem with Joey Brunk being out--and Brunk is likely gone for the season. Rob Phinisee should be playing behind Kristian Lander and Al Durham should be playing behind Trey Galloway. Rob sometimes plays like he doesn't even want to be on the floor. Al has been playing above his talent level for 3 years. This year he is playing at his talent level.

He played at his talent level last season. He's regressed so badly though. 

[Str8Hoosiers 2,965]

23 hours ago, Brass Cannon said:

Gonna lay out a few stats all PER  which is a stat that I think has its flaws but a decent comparative tool when looking at the same player   Somewhat decent at comparing players on the same team.  Not a good comparative tool when comparing between teams unless the difference is drastic. First number will be last season and second number will be this years  

Al Durham - 14.9 - 11.3

Robert Phinisee - 12.8 - 10.3

Justin Smith - 8.5 - 5.2

Race Thompson - 19.3 - 20.2

We have five Upper Class men on this roster. 1 hasn’t played this year. 3 of the other 4 are essentially playing worse than last year.  And the other has improved slightly.  

Some Freshmen stats 

Khristian Lander - 4.9

Jordan Geronimo - 13.3

Trey Galloway - 9.7

Anthony Leal - 9.0

These upperclassmen aside from Race are being as effective as Freshmen. 

It’s time we stop playing the guys who have demonstrated they won’t get better with PT. And build for the future. 

How can you use Justin Smith as a stat of somebody playing worse... he doesn't even play on our team....

What about our 2 Sophomore's? What is their PER? I am guessing it is a big improvement, which is why it isn't included in your analysis.

The PER sums up all a player's positive accomplishments, subtracts the negative accomplishments, and returns a per-minute rating of a player's performance.

Therefore saying giving these guys more minutes will make them better and build for the future is inherently incorrect. Why people continue to advocate playing Leal & Lander is beyond me... they are Hoosiers, and I HOPE they improve over the next few years and make an impact but I don't want to see either of them on the floor in meaningful minutes for the rest of the season, they have proven they are not ready... obviously they have proven the same in practice which is why they don't get a lot of minutes.

Trey is getting plenty of minutes as it is so no change, but I would be ok to try Jordan a little more as he has shown some flashes, but he can't be playing 30 minutes a game either at this point.

 

NEVER NEVER NEVER has any coach in the history of sports given up on a season so early to try to prepare for the next season... that is ludacris and would get Archie (or anybody) fired immediately. You do everything you can to win every game that you can, and for us this year it is the rotation and the minutes that we have seen all season... add in Brunk when/if he is able.... those minutes probably come from Jerome Hunter mostly...

[Str8Hoosiers 2,965]

Lets go all MONEY BALL and start our Top 5 PER, and make rotations accordingly??

TJD, Race, Armaan, Geronimo, & Durham get the start.

Rob is 1st guy off the bench... followed by Trey.... and then Leal.... Not sure where Jerome fits in the PER....

Lander never leaves the bench & Justin Smith transfers (maybe to somewhere like Arkansas)

[Stuhoo 75,559]

“Playing for next season” is designed for cupcake games and blowouts, or in the pros for draft picks once eliminated from playoff contention.

None of those dynamics are applicable with IUBB.

 

[Bowhunter 2,647]

I actually like our 2020 recruits. Lander will get there. Galloway is solid. Leal and Geronimo have potential. 2021 class is the real head scratcher for me. If we would have landed Kaufman, Miller, or Mohammed you probably wouldn’t t hear anything out of me. Such a disappointing class considering what it should have been. I like the improvement in Race and Franklin. Pleased with their play so far.

 

 

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[Alford Bailey 12,244]

19 hours ago, cappymo14 said:

I wonder how much it matters really. The lineup is Average Joe being spelled off the bench by Less Than Average Joe w/ poor defense. We are talking about getting experience for guys who will likely be career 6-7ppg scorers. There is about as much depth here as an Adam Sandler movie. There just isn’t this “hidden talent” down at the end of the bench that people seem to believe is magically going to develop through another 5 minutes of run on a team of Average Joe’s running an Average Joe offense. The kids are going to get plenty of run throughout the season. It will be enough. The guys who have potential on this team need to play like it. That’s the focus. I absolutely disagree that we should play freshmen in extended minutes to allow Lander, Leal and Galloway to clank a couple extra 3’s in important spots. It’s an empty cupboard. No doubt. Gonna get recruited over anyway with transfer market.

 

 

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I had higher hopes for Lander but I may end up disappointed. Cant really argue on the other freshmen.

[Golfman25 4,647]

1 hour ago, Alford Bailey said:

I had higher hopes for Lander but I may end up disappointed. Cant really argue on the other freshmen.

I think with lander it’s just the speed of the college game.   He’ll get there.  Just needs to work thru how fast things happen.   

[HoosierAloha 29,887]

19 minutes ago, Golfman25 said:

I think with lander it’s just the speed of the college game.   He’ll get there.  Just needs to work thru how fast things happen.   

The speed of the game and defense.  If anyone questions why Lander doesn't play more watch him for the few minutes he gets a game.  He's consistently out of position, fouling, or just plain getting scored on.  Galloway isn't where he will be defensively but is capable of acceptable defense because he knows the game. 

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,181]

23 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

The speed of the game and defense.  If anyone questions why Lander doesn't play more watch him for the few minutes he gets a game.  He's consistently out of position, fouling, or just plain getting scored on.  Galloway isn't where he will be defensively but is capable of acceptable defense because he knows the game. 

Those are growing pains that have to be dealt with. Thats why Archie should have been playing him against those cupcakes. Instead we continued to watch Rob and Al struggle. Defense is great, but if you're not a threat to score, you're not helping this team any. Defense can come along quicker with just hustle and athleticism. You need more IQ on the other end and more confidence. 

[cappymo14 2,276]

I had higher hopes for Lander but I may end up disappointed. Cant really argue on the other freshmen.

Lander will be just fine Bales. I think we need patience and so does he. Like I’ve said before, I don’t think the plan was ever to have him play a lot of minutes this year. I think the staff, his family, even kristian himself, knew that he wasn’t ready physically for this league. I firmly believe his re-class was solely for the purpose of getting him into the conditioning program a year early so that next year, when he is expected to take on heavy minutes, he won’t still be so far behind physically. The small minutes we see him playing this far are a reflection of that plan. He’s learning the defense and working on his body. He’s in basketball camp right now.


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[HoosierAloha 29,887]

49 minutes ago, cappymo14 said:

Lander will be just fine Bales. I think we need patience and so does he. Like I’ve said before, I don’t think the plan was ever to have him play a lot of minutes this year. I think the staff, his family, even kristian himself, knew that he wasn’t ready physically for this league. I firmly believe his re-class was solely for the purpose of getting him into the conditioning program a year early so that next year, when he is expected to take on heavy minutes, he won’t still be so far behind physically. The small minutes we see him playing this far are a reflection of that plan. He’s learning the defense and working on his body. He’s in basketball camp right now.


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Agree with this and it's probably the best for both Lander and the team.  I don't doubt his talent but his output has shown he's not ready for the Big Ten just yet.  I do hope that he gets to Phinisee's defensive level while following Armaan's offensive growth between freshman and sophomore year.  We'll have a true floor general if that comes to fruition. 

[Trish 11,408]

Archie got your emails huh? ;) 

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,181]

20 minutes ago, Treesh said:

Archie got your emails huh? ;) 

He wouldn't like an email from me. 

[mamasa 14,818]

He wouldn't like an email from me. 

Yeah, I’m sure you’d really shake him up


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[cappymo14 2,276]

Agree with this and it's probably the best for both Lander and the team.  I don't doubt his talent but his output has shown he's not ready for the Big Ten just yet.  I do hope that he gets to Phinisee's defensive level while following Armaan's offensive growth between freshman and sophomore year.  We'll have a true floor general if that comes to fruition. 

Oh yeah. With that kind of quickness, once he learns to stay down on ball fakes, and gets some strength, he’s not going to have far to go to get to Robs level. And it’s like I said, we’re 2 games into a 20 game conference slate. The freshmen will play plenty of minutes this year. My dream scenario for next season is that he develops that consistency on defense and Rob snaps out of this tentative, easy does it, style he’s gotten into. If Rob can start creating some offense for himself to where he averaged even say 8 ppg. Man we’d have a backcourt that would challenge folks. He’d better for his sake. I don’t know if the “writing is on the wall” for the coaches or not, but it certainly is for Rob P. In bold lettering.


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