What Can IUBB do to Revive Your Excitement/Confidence?

[jonz44 805]

1 hour ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Ummm, for? 

[Josh 12,360]

2 hours ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

College football is run this way too, but Tom Allen is succeeding.  Why does this hamper Archie but not Tom?

[Josh 12,360]

8 minutes ago, jonz44 said:

I had read on here from some that he wasn't allowed to remove players because the program was in a difficult situation academically. Hadn't heard anything about how he was allowed to talk to the team being constrained. Thanks. 

Grant Gelon disagrees

[Jeff_Boy_Ardee 1,311]

And THIS is your answer. The fact we all anticipate this debate AGAIN next year means we aren’t a top level team. Simple as that. Winning quiets critics, and Archie hasn’t done it, isn’t doing it, and doesn’t project to do it.

As a fan as it pertains to this discussion it boils down to expectations. The reactions directly relate to expectations. Then it becomes, what expectations are reasonable for Archie in year 4-5?

I want to be an elite, type team. Top 4 in conference. Consistently top 25. It appears me and others have unrealistic expectations for Indiana Basketball.


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Just curious, say we get rid of Archie EOY. Who do you REALISTICALLY think we can get and get us to elite status in 3-4 years? Not trying to come off demeaning, I’m genuinely curious as I don’t see us being able to find a coach that wants to come here that could get us elite in a short turnaround. Keep in mind we made Archie a top 10 paid coach at the time.

I am by no means happy with the results on the record books. But this year, IMO, we are better in defense. We are better on offense, move the ball more, more screens, more movement, just not knocking down shots. We are better in effort. The only thing I don’t think we have really gotten better on is shooting, so I will give everyone that. I believe this team is 1 solid shooter away from being good to great so whether that’s on the players or Archie or both it is what it is we can’t shoot. That being said, I think Archie has finally gotten players that will be here 3-4 years and buying into his system. This is the first year I think we have finally seen what that looks like, yes granted we still can’t shoot. However, I’m still hopeful that now that he has a core group of players that have bought in and now the system he can focus more on recruiting true needs versus recruiting players to willingly but in to his system, learn it, and teach it. No excuse for not being able to find a solid shooter to this point, but IMO I feel like we have made so pretty good progress.


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[WayneFleekHoosier 46,726]

Just curious, say we get rid of Archie EOY. Who do you REALISTICALLY think we can get and get us to elite status in 3-4 years? Not trying to come off demeaning, I’m genuinely curious as I don’t see us being able to find a coach that wants to come here that could get us elite in a short turnaround. Keep in mind we made Archie a top 10 paid coach at the time.

I am by no means happy with the results on the record books. But this year, IMO, we are better in defense. We are better on offense, move the ball more, more screens, more movement, just not knocking down shots. We are better in effort. The only thing I don’t think we have really gotten better on is shooting, so I will give everyone that. I believe this team is 1 solid shooter away from being good to great so whether that’s on the players or Archie or both it is what it is we can’t shoot. That being said, I think Archie has finally gotten players that will be here 3-4 years and buying into his system. This is the first year I think we have finally seen what that looks like, yes granted we still can’t shoot. However, I’m still hopeful that now that he has a core group of players that have bought in and now the system he can focus more on recruiting true needs versus recruiting players to willingly but in to his system, learn it, and teach it. No excuse for not being able to find a solid shooter to this point, but IMO I feel like we have made so pretty good progress.


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All well and good. Remove TJD then add our projected recruiting class for next season, (even assuming a grad transfer Big. He won’t be anywhere near TJD good) How does that project? Flawed team this year. Flawed team next year. Flawed team every year under Archie.

I’m not advocating a firing of Archie. He WONT be fired. He has next year as a given unless the season goes to the abyss. It’s infuriating to be a middle or slightly worse B1G ten team year after year.

If our projected roster next season looked like an improvement I’d feel better. It’s beyond frustrating being a player or 2 away from being good.


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[rcbowla 6,733]

This may be for a different discussion, or maybe it would actually fit in here. 
 
Do we have any real evidence of the administration handicapping the men's basketball program in any way?
 
Our football and women's basketball programs have terrible histories, but are currently achieving high levels of success rarely, and in some cases never seen here before. What kind of conditions would allow those programs to thrive, while causing our flagship program to suffer? 

To me it seems to be an easy excuse but I'm not in the know

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[Hovadipo 52,926]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

College football is run this way too, but Tom Allen is succeeding.  Why does this hamper Archie but not Tom?

An elite culture builder + great player development hires. 
 

Doesn’t seem like Archie excels in either area. They better let him pay (or pay more often).

[Southside 1,914]

To the OP... I'm not a huge fan of CAM, but I'm also not calling for his job right now either. 

So far, we've done decent vs some good teams. TX was ugly, but liked what I saw vs FSU even in the loss.

Shooting has to improve obviously, but I have a feeling it will as the year goes along. If not, I'll likely jump off the CAM train.

FT shooting is a bit better. We should be 6-2 going into the road game vs IL. As long as we don't get blown out, I'll be OK.

[WayneFleekHoosier 46,726]

An elite culture builder + great player development hires. 
 
Doesn’t seem like Archie excels in either area. They better let him pay (or pay more often).

Full agree.

When do we admit low 4 star, high 3 star Indiana kids don’t dominate the college basketball landscape, even with a 5 star sprinkled in. What’s the winning formula in Indiana?


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[Brass Cannon 24,064]

24 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Full agree.

When do we admit low 4 star, high 3 star Indiana kids don’t dominate the college basketball landscape, even with a 5 star sprinkled in. What’s the winning formula in Indiana?


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A good coach can win with that formula. But can a guy that can’t teach shooting be called a good coach. Maybe in football or baseball. But not basketball 

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,182]

21 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Full agree.

When do we admit low 4 star, high 3 star Indiana kids don’t dominate the college basketball landscape, even with a 5 star sprinkled in. What’s the winning formula in Indiana?


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Winning formula? Who knows anymore. Basket all still looks difficult even with Archie's "guys." We had success in 3 seasons under Crean. All 3 had veteran players and big time talent. The 11-12 and 12-13 team obviously had Zeller but then Oladipo, Hills, Watford, Verdell and Yogi. The 2016 team had two 5 stars in Yogi and Bryant plus guys like Johnson, Max, Zeisloft, OG, Juwan etc. What does this team have? Well it has its 5 star big man... Unfortunately I think Archie is just like his brother. Needs a CRAP TON of talent to be successful and Archie just can't pull off that kind of recruiting. He's just not good enough or is being told not to. 

[HoosierAloha 29,887]

hell, I just looked that the 3FG%...

Overall, we're 21/73 for 28.8% from deep.  73 threes in 5 games is only 14.6 APG, that's not a lot.

Looking at who's shooting what and it's kind of interesting to see the percentages.

Lander 2/13 15.4% (let him shoot!!)

Franklin 2/12 16.7% (let him shoot!)

Galloway 1/7 14.3% (at least he hasn't taken a lot)

Phinisee 5/11 45.5% (he sucks and Lander needs his minutes!!!)

Durham 5/14 35.7% (he sucks!)

Hunter 4/9 44.4% (he needs to get locked in on defense and awareness)

If those percentages play out over the entire season and the players (upperclassmen) who actually are making take a larger percentage our 3FG% can straighten itself out.  I have faith Lander can find his role but chucking up a quick couple of threes when he gets into the game isn't going to do him or the team any favors.

Just a quick little game of numbers.  Let's say the frosh took quarter as many threes as they actually have and those shots went to the upperclassmen shooting a better percentage.  What would our overall numbers look like?

Lander 1/4 25%

Franklin 1/4 25%

Galloway 0/2 0%

Phinisee 9.1/20 45.5%

Durham 7.85/22 35%

Hunter 6.21/14 41.6%

The team is now shooting 27/73 or 36.9% from deep 18 more points on the season, some of those points could have been the difference in a game.  Are we still talking about how terrible we are from deep if we're shooting at a 36.9% clip instead of 28.8%?  It's a small sample size but shot selection is extremely important!!

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,182]

58 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

hell, I just looked that the 3FG%...

Overall, we're 21/73 for 28.8% from deep.  73 threes in 5 games is only 14.6 APG, that's not a lot.

Looking at who's shooting what and it's kind of interesting to see the percentages.

Lander 2/13 15.4% (let him shoot!!)

Franklin 2/12 16.7% (let him shoot!)

Galloway 1/7 14.3% (at least he hasn't taken a lot)

Phinisee 5/11 45.5% (he sucks and Lander needs his minutes!!!)

Durham 5/14 35.7% (he sucks!)

Hunter 4/9 44.4% (he needs to get locked in on defense and awareness)

If those percentages play out over the entire season and the players (upperclassmen) who actually are making take a larger percentage our 3FG% can straighten itself out.  I have faith Lander can find his role but chucking up a quick couple of threes when he gets into the game isn't going to do him or the team any favors.

Just a quick little game of numbers.  Let's say the frosh took quarter as many threes as they actually have and those shots went to the upperclassmen shooting a better percentage.  What would our overall numbers look like?

Lander 1/4 25%

Franklin 1/4 25%

Galloway 0/2 0%

Phinisee 9.1/20 45.5%

Durham 7.85/22 35%

Hunter 6.21/14 41.6%

The team is now shooting 27/73 or 36.9% from deep 18 more points on the season, some of those points could have been the difference in a game.  Are we still talking about how terrible we are from deep if we're shooting at a 36.9% clip instead of 28.8%?  It's a small sample size but shot selection is extremely important!!

But we aren't 37% from 3. We are 29%. And I'd you're a coach and telling all of your players to never shoot when they are wide open after spending all summer and all of last summer, then you suck as a coach. If you're open and in rythm, shoot the ball. If not, sit on the bench.

[Jeff_Boy_Ardee 1,311]

A good coach can win with that formula. But can a guy that can’t teach shooting be called a good coach. Maybe in football or baseball. But not basketball 

I’m not trying to say that the HC shouldn’t emphasize shooting drills and getting shots up, but since when do we expect a HC to TEACH shooting to D1 basketball players. Granted I didn’t play college ball, I did have a lot of close friends that were D1 and D2 players, and was very connected and worked in the athletic department in college at a highly regarded D2 basketball school. I never once have heard of a HC in college teaching players how to shoot. I saw the HC implementing shooting drills throughout a 2 hour practice, and I saw players staying after hours working on the gun and getting shots up, but never have I seen a college coach teaching scholarship players how to shoot a basketball. 

Has Archie recruited a deadeye from 3 pt range, no. Has his teams shot well from 3 or FT, no. You can blame some of that on recruiting, but if you are skilled enough to play college ball at any level, a fundamental skill such as shooting is not on the coach. There’s 24 hours in a day, plenty of time to find some time to get shots up. I’m just as upset we can’t shoot as anyone, but we are getting open looks frequently, i get some of the blame that archie gets, but you can’t blame him for kids not making shots. He’s not shooting for them. And it’s not like he doesn’t know how to shoot he was a career 85% FT shooter and 43% 3pt at NC State.

 

 

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[Jeff_Boy_Ardee 1,311]

But we aren't 37% from 3. We are 29%. And I'd you're a coach and telling all of your players to never shoot when they are wide open after spending all summer and all of last summer, then you suck as a coach. If you're open and in rythm, shoot the ball. If not, sit on the bench.

You have first hand knowledge that all of the players are being told to never shoot when they are open? That’s news to me.


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[JSHoosier 19,559]

4 hours ago, Jeff_Boy_Ardee said:

I’m not trying to say that the HC shouldn’t emphasize shooting drills and getting shots up, but since when do we expect a HC to TEACH shooting to D1 basketball players. Granted I didn’t play college ball, I did have a lot of close friends that were D1 and D2 players, and was very connected and worked in the athletic department in college at a highly regarded D2 basketball school. I never once have heard of a HC in college teaching players how to shoot. I saw the HC implementing shooting drills throughout a 2 hour practice, and I saw players staying after hours working on the gun and getting shots up, but never have I seen a college coach teaching scholarship players how to shoot a basketball. 

Has Archie recruited a deadeye from 3 pt range, no. Has his teams shot well from 3 or FT, no. You can blame some of that on recruiting, but if you are skilled enough to play college ball at any level, a fundamental skill such as shooting is not on the coach. There’s 24 hours in a day, plenty of time to find some time to get shots up. I’m just as upset we can’t shoot as anyone, but we are getting open looks frequently, i get some of the blame that archie gets, but you can’t blame him for kids not making shots. He’s not shooting for them. And it’s not like he doesn’t know how to shoot he was a career 85% FT shooter and 43% 3pt at NC State.

 

 

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Shooting wasn't really a strength of his Dayton teams either.  We're even worse than they were, sure, but that leads me to think there's a problem with something he's doing (or not doing); even if you want to see those shooters haven't been landed then it's still on him because that's part of his job.

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,182]

5 hours ago, Jeff_Boy_Ardee said:

You have first hand knowledge that all of the players are being told to never shoot when they are open? That’s news to me.


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Didn't say Archie was. I said "if." But something is holding these guys WAY back and confidence is the biggest issue. 

[Loaded Chicken Sandwich 8,182]

16 hours ago, Str8Hoosiers said:

Really?

This is how you lose credibility in a conversation... make some valid points, have a good discussion... try something different to get your point across (although we have all heard it a thousand times in every thread)....

But stoop to this?

I am not going to go back and do any searching whatsoever, but I would be willing to wager that you disliked Crean's antics, clapping, signs, etc....

But now Archie would be better if he did more of those things.... C'mon.

 

Maybe its just me, but I LOVE Archie's all business attitude..... When (if - for you) we start winning consistently and get into the upper echelon and he begins to loosen up, party it up in the locker room after a big win, show some emotion (a la Tom Allen) then great... but now he is in the business end of making us Great/Relevant/BACK again.... keep grinding.

Well one its a joke so calm yourself. Two, being charismatic isn't acting like Crean. It's just not acting like a robot. Being a bit looser and not looking so uncomfortable in social situations. Archie is very straight faced and mono toned a lot of the time. Maybe actually winning and being successful would change that. Who knows. 

[Brass Cannon 24,064]

7 hours ago, Jeff_Boy_Ardee said:

I’m not trying to say that the HC shouldn’t emphasize shooting drills and getting shots up, but since when do we expect a HC to TEACH shooting to D1 basketball players. Granted I didn’t play college ball, I did have a lot of close friends that were D1 and D2 players, and was very connected and worked in the athletic department in college at a highly regarded D2 basketball school. I never once have heard of a HC in college teaching players how to shoot. I saw the HC implementing shooting drills throughout a 2 hour practice, and I saw players staying after hours working on the gun and getting shots up, but never have I seen a college coach teaching scholarship players how to shoot a basketball. 

Has Archie recruited a deadeye from 3 pt range, no. Has his teams shot well from 3 or FT, no. You can blame some of that on recruiting, but if you are skilled enough to play college ball at any level, a fundamental skill such as shooting is not on the coach. There’s 24 hours in a day, plenty of time to find some time to get shots up. I’m just as upset we can’t shoot as anyone, but we are getting open looks frequently, i get some of the blame that archie gets, but you can’t blame him for kids not making shots. He’s not shooting for them. And it’s not like he doesn’t know how to shoot he was a career 85% FT shooter and 43% 3pt at NC State.

 

 

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Archie took a 41% shooter in Fitztner and turned him into a 30% shooter.  Something we are doing is counter productive to shooting. 

[jk34 1,105]

3 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

Archie took a 41% shooter in Fitztner and turned him into a 30% shooter.  Something we are doing is counter productive to shooting. 

He also turned TJD into a  22pt, 9 reb, and 73% ft.