(2022) - SG C. J. Gunn to DePaul

[MikeRoberts 6,832]

On 3/5/2022 at 8:52 AM, Stuhoo said:

So it’s pretty clear he can shoot. He’s gonna be a Cliff Marshall special to get court time.

Please don’t Cliff. Would love to see what a natural progression of our athletes looks like without the CM program that I believe has messed with every player that has come through since he’s been here

[WayneFleekHoosier 46,726]

feel like talking about everything you dont like abt a recruit is bad taste, its hs ball. You have no idea how he’ll be at Indiana. 

I’ve thought about this. It’s my “scouting report”. I give the good and the bad as I see it. His coaches are going to tell him much of the same, if they want him to Improve. It’s The same way I coach my son. If someone, doesn’t mention it, things don’t get fixed. Lots to love about Gunn on and off the court. I just see it as he can be a lot be better and hopefully he will be as he gets better coaching and players he trusts.


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[maharkn 1,601]

Please don’t Cliff. Would love to see what a natural progression of our athletes looks like without the CM program that I believe has messed with every player that has come through since he’s been here

Shooting has gone way down hill since he has taken over. I think it is time we move on from him honestly. Our players do increase there max lifting every year.

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[Golfman25 4,651]

52 minutes ago, Hoosierfanyuh said:

feel like talking about everything you dont like abt a recruit is bad taste, its hs ball. You have no idea how he’ll be at Indiana. 

In HS these kids are the biggest, strongest, fastest.  They can get away with a lot.  As they move up the ladder and go to the college game, everyone was the biggest, strongest, fastest.  Now what?  You have to improve and those things that make you a better player.  

[woodenshoemanHoosierfan 6,100]

Please don’t Cliff. Would love to see what a natural progression of our athletes looks like without the CM program that I believe has messed with every player that has come through since he’s been here

I've been thinking the same thing. IMO, it is a factor of the terrible 3 pt shooting we've had

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[MikeRoberts 6,832]

11 minutes ago, woodenshoemanHoosierfan said:

I've been thinking the same thing. IMO, it is a factor of the terrible 3 pt shooting we've had

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It’s what happens when you hire a football trainer to do basketball. Pack on the weight and muscle and our entire team has sucked at shooting since he arrived, performing worse than high school, AAU and schools they transferred from in most cases.

also doesn’t bode well that our teams have all taken a giant dump in February ever year - we’re breaking down at the end of each season while our competitors are getting better

[BtownStrength 993]

My opinion is neither an indictment nor defense of coach Marshall. I do not know what regimen he gives these guys regarding workouts. 

I will say that while we have got physically stronger under Cliff, it has not been at an unprecedented or unusual rate that would be prominent in shot mechanics. 

Sometimes adjusting to college game can make shooting percentages dip. Sometimes they weren't that great at shooting to begin with. I'm only commenting on the rate of muscle gain, and no one on this team is jacked enough for it to make that much of a difference (unless theh are fatigued from workouts, and that's an entirely different scenario). 

 

[Alford Bailey 12,246]

1 hour ago, BtownStrength said:

My opinion is neither an indictment nor defense of coach Marshall. I do not know what regimen he gives these guys regarding workouts. 

I will say that while we have got physically stronger under Cliff, it has not been at an unprecedented or unusual rate that would be prominent in shot mechanics. 

Sometimes adjusting to college game can make shooting percentages dip. Sometimes they weren't that great at shooting to begin with. I'm only commenting on the rate of muscle gain, and no one on this team is jacked enough for it to make that much of a difference (unless theh are fatigued from workouts, and that's an entirely different scenario). 

 

Agree, I don’t don’t see any of our guys built enough to make a difference.

[Kentuckysucks 2,116]

1 hour ago, MikeRoberts said:

It’s what happens when you hire a football trainer to do basketball. Pack on the weight and muscle and our entire team has sucked at shooting since he arrived, performing worse than high school, AAU and schools they transferred from in most cases.

also doesn’t bode well that our teams have all taken a giant dump in February ever year - we’re breaking down at the end of each season while our competitors are getting better

Freshman year under CM.

Sophomore year under CM. 

 

 

 

 

[TheWatShot 13,335]

1 hour ago, MikeRoberts said:

It’s what happens when you hire a football trainer to do basketball. Pack on the weight and muscle and our entire team has sucked at shooting since he arrived, performing worse than high school, AAU and schools they transferred from in most cases.

also doesn’t bode well that our teams have all taken a giant dump in February ever year - we’re breaking down at the end of each season while our competitors are getting better

Yogi's shot got better every year and he looked like a linebacker by the time he graduated. Muscle gain doesn't mess up someone's ability to shoot. This is a myth. 

[MikeRoberts 6,832]

2 hours ago, TheWatShot said:

Yogi's shot got better every year and he looked like a linebacker by the time he graduated. Muscle gain doesn't mess up someone's ability to shoot. This is a myth. 

First of all, Cliff Marshall wasn’t here then.  I think muscle and bulk is overated in basketball, but it’s not just about the weight and bulk, it’s about knowing what your doing and knowing your subject matter.

there are numerous cases of players adding weight or dropping weight that both helped or hurt their ability to play. Some can gain from it, others it’s a detriment 

Beyond sheer body mass, there are workouts, weights, duration, repetition, timing etc. That all matters. 
 

there is never going to be proof that Cliff has negatively impacted our players and team, just a theory of mine. However, for every player that you can show that improved his shooting since he arrived, I can show you two that regressed. I also find it crazy how we collapse down the stretch almost like clockwork in games and seasons since he’s arrived. 
 

players should be improving physically as they go through a season and career at IU and that hasn’t been the norm since he arrived. There are some really alarming consistencies that have developed since he’s been here

[MikeRoberts 6,832]

2 hours ago, TheWatShot said:

Yogi's shot got better every year and he looked like a linebacker by the time he graduated. Muscle gain doesn't mess up someone's ability to shoot. This is a myth. 

Have more players improved their shooting or regressed in their shooting since Cliff arrived in Bloomington?

you can include Yogi too even though he predated Cliff

[TheWatShot 13,335]

4 minutes ago, MikeRoberts said:

Have more players improved their shooting or regressed in their shooting since Cliff arrived in Bloomington?

you can include Yogi too even though he predated Cliff

I used Yogi as an example because he got noticeably bigger but still improved his shot. 

 

Archie Miller's teams never shot the ball well from anywhere, including free throws, even at Dayton. I maintain our shooting problems are mostly because he had no idea how to recruit shooters nor how to utilize them. 

[MikeRoberts 6,832]

24 minutes ago, TheWatShot said:

I used Yogi as an example because he got noticeably bigger but still improved his shot. 

 

Archie Miller's teams never shot the ball well from anywhere, including free throws, even at Dayton. I maintain our shooting problems are mostly because he had no idea how to recruit shooters nor how to utilize them. 

Sure but we’re seeing similar stuff in Woodsons players. The common denominator over the past 5 years is Cliff

[HoosierX 1,448]

57 minutes ago, MikeRoberts said:

First of all, Cliff Marshall wasn’t here then.  I think muscle and bulk is overated in basketball, but it’s not just about the weight and bulk, it’s about knowing what your doing and knowing your subject matter.

there are numerous cases of players adding weight or dropping weight that both helped or hurt their ability to play. Some can gain from it, others it’s a detriment 

Beyond sheer body mass, there are workouts, weights, duration, repetition, timing etc. That all matters. 
 

there is never going to be proof that Cliff has negatively impacted our players and team, just a theory of mine. However, for every player that you can show that improved his shooting since he arrived, I can show you two that regressed. I also find it crazy how we collapse down the stretch almost like clockwork in games and seasons since he’s arrived. 
 

players should be improving physically as they go through a season and career at IU and that hasn’t been the norm since he arrived. There are some really alarming consistencies that have developed since he’s been here

I really doubt you could show that though. I’m betting the majority of players improve year over year, al durham being one example.

[triple 408]

6 hours ago, MikeRoberts said:

Sure but we’re seeing similar stuff in Woodsons players. The common denominator over the past 5 years is Cliff

I agree with this.  The workout videos we see every summer look much more suited to football than basketball.  Even if the strength training is not directly impacting shots, my belief is that the time would be much better spent improving basketball skills.  We may have the most "fit" team in the conference by the looks test, but we consistently run out of steam, year after year, as seasons progress.  And the less fit players who knock us down a notch do so with good shooting.  It's not rocket science.

[Hoosierfanyuh 1,849]

I love seeing this argument once a month lol. Team not marshalls fault for what its worth. 

[MikeRoberts 6,832]

19 minutes ago, Hoosierfanyuh said:

I love seeing this argument once a month lol. Team not marshalls fault for what its worth. 

What is your rationale for it not being a contributing factor?

as stated monthly, we have fallen to pieces at the ends of games and ends of seasons and shooters have regressed all since he’s been here.

those were not the norm prior.

let me know how it is impossible for those things to be correlated considering he is the one working with players muscles/stamina etc

[Hoosierfanyuh 1,849]

9 minutes ago, MikeRoberts said:

What is your rationale for it not being a contributing factor?

as stated monthly, we have fallen to pieces at the ends of games and ends of seasons and shooters have regressed all since he’s been here.

those were not the norm prior.

let me know how it is impossible for those things to be correlated considering he is the one working with players muscles/stamina etc

I just feel like its the easy way out when in reality no one has any idea. If its so noticeable he is the issue over these years something wouldve been done by now. I think in reality we just havent recruited great shooters lol. Shooting in hs and in the b1g is alot different. Kopp and stewarts averages have stayed the same basically too.  Like someone said above no one looks like theyve added so much muscle that it would have a significant change. Also prior to woody it was known that grad assistants were the go tos for shooting practice or however you want to word that. That was one of the things TJD stated when woody first got hired, that he liked that the coaches were doing more w them. (Very paraphrased but you get the jist) 
 

As for injuries the only one of recent memory that i think could possibly be marshalls doing was brunks back during summer workout. But what do i know. All just my opinions. 

[Stuhoo 75,560]

We've had fewer injuries than most this year. Time missed?

• Gallo missed games due to a flagrant foul that broke his wrist, and recently because of a muscle pull.
• Phinisee missed because of a foot injury.
• Lander has missed because of (*best guess*) knee tendonitis.

Maybe I'm missing something, but if that's it, that's not bad at all.