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Class of '66 Old Fart

Coronavirus and Its Impact

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I’m not saying there’s not an issue here. I am saying that doing nothing isn’t the solution. 

Complaining to complain. Whenever you can attack the Trump led government (they have had their hands tied the entire time, with every decision) you like to do that. It’s what you do.

Republicans generally want people back to work. Democrats generally want to keep things shut down. Do we agree with this principle?

Hard to make hard set rules when the government is diametrically opposed in what they want and constantly fighting one another. I’m certain you would do better though, because you have all the answers.




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4 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:


Complaining to complain. Whenever you can attack the Trump led government (they have had their hands tied the entire time, with every decision) you like to do that. It’s what you do.

Republicans generally want people back to work. Democrats generally want to keep things shut down. Do we agree with this principle?

Hard to make hard set rules when the government is diametrically opposed in what they want and constantly fighting one another. I’m certain you would do better though, because you have all the answers.




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I honestly can’t laugh hard enough at this.  I’m not complaining because it’s a trump led government. I’m complaining that these guys are doing nothing during the greatest economic disaster of our lives.  The second one in a lifetime economic crisis in the last 12 years though. 
 

The republicans control the senate stop pretending that it’s democrats preventing them from passing something.  

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My wife has had the same issue with nursers at her facility and we are seeing some issues with it at the hospitals. I think everyone was so busy trying to prop up the economy at the beginning that they didn't see all the holes in the support bill.
For the sake of discussion, I know a lot of people whose jobs rely on tips (servers and bartenders) who are back to work, but not going to be able to pay rent because the service industry is still hurting. Even with everything opening up, the limiting of capacity and the fact that large portions of the population aren't comfortable going out to eat, means that people aren't making the money they were before. 
My friend who is sales is having similar issues with not hitting their typical numbers. Even though he is salary, he had to take a pay cut but his situation isn't as dire in the industry since his salary isn't directly tied commission (or tips). His quarterly bonus will take a hit though. 
I am not really sure how we protect those people while also encouraging those that can work to work. I thought that only those that are "laid off" or furloughed could claim it?
 

This makes for great discussion. It’s nuanced, but over time this will be the trickle down effects that linger long into the future. Many more small businesses will be lost. Many jobs will continue to be lost. Many people are scared to death to do anything. Big corporations will be the victors of the spoils. It’s incredibly sad.


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34 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:



Republicans generally want people back to work. Democrats generally want to keep things shut down. Do we agree with this principle?

Hard to make hard set rules when the government is diametrically opposed in what they want and constantly fighting one another. I’m certain you would do better though, because you have all the answers.




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I think with the first part I would disagree some. I think every democrat I know wants to get back to work, but safely.  Me working at Lincoln there are over 3,000 people in that building so we are looking at middle of next year at the earliest.  Some people have been laid off due to that, and others that obviously work out in the field.  Luckily I haven’t had to deal with that, but I am friends with plenty that have.

The second part, I will absolutely agree with that.  It has been a one up for years and it’s old.  On both sides.  Just today it is coming out there was a national response being set up to testing and they held off when it was mainly blue states being infected due to Trumps insistence to make blue states look bad.  Or how Mitch McConnell blocking Obama’s pick for the Supreme Court in his last year because it just wouldn’t be right.  But in 2020, the landscape has changed so much so it would totally be the right thing to do according to Mitch.  Or like Dems blocking $600 unemployment insurance the Republicans suddenly approve of because the Dems would lose their negotiating power.  I feel absolutely horrible if there is anyone on here having to stress that due to negotiations.  I am so sick of politics right now.  I can’t wait until we slim down the hyper political aspect of every day life.  Both sides are awful and do nothing to advance my way of life.  Now both sides are actually harming it in their own way in ways we haven’t seen in this country in around 100 years.

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13 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:


This makes for great discussion. It’s nuanced, but over time this will be the trickle down effects that linger long into the future. Many more small businesses will be lost. Many jobs will continue to be lost. Many people are scared to death to do anything. Big corporations will be the victors of the spoils. It’s incredibly sad.


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Yep, we will be lucky to be within range by the end of next year what our GDP was at the end of last year.  Much like after the Great Depression we will have a lot of shuffling until the next boom.  Hopefully it’s in our lifetime.  

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3 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

I think with the first part I would disagree some. I think every democrat I know wants to get back to work, but safely.  Me working at Lincoln there are over 3,000 people in that building so we are looking at middle of next year at the earliest.  Some people have been laid off due to that, and others that obviously work out in the field.  Luckily I haven’t had to deal with that, but I am friends with plenty that have.

The second part, I will absolutely agree with that.  It has been a one up for years and it’s old.  On both sides.  Just today it is coming out there was a national response being set up to testing and they held off when it was mainly blue states being infected due to Trumps insistence to make blue states look bad.  Or how Mitch McConnell blocking Obama’s pick for the Supreme Court in his last year because it just wouldn’t be right.  But in 2020, the landscape has changed so much so it would totally be the right thing to do according to Mitch.  Or like Dems blocking $600 unemployment insurance the Republicans suddenly approve of because the Dems would lose their negotiating power.  I feel absolutely horrible if there is anyone on here having to stress that due to negotiations.  I am so sick of politics right now.  I can’t wait until we slim down the hyper political aspect of every day life.  Both sides are awful and do nothing to advance my way of life.  Now both sides are actually harming it in their own way in ways we haven’t seen in this country in around 100 years.

 

I'm voting for mdn82.  Well said my friend.

 

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17 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

I think with the first part I would disagree some. I think every democrat I know wants to get back to work, but safely.  Me working at Lincoln there are over 3,000 people in that building so we are looking at middle of next year at the earliest.  Some people have been laid off due to that, and others that obviously work out in the field.  Luckily I haven’t had to deal with that, but I am friends with plenty that have.

The second part, I will absolutely agree with that.  It has been a one up for years and it’s old.  On both sides.  Just today it is coming out there was a national response being set up to testing and they held off when it was mainly blue states being infected due to Trumps insistence to make blue states look bad.  Or how Mitch McConnell blocking Obama’s pick for the Supreme Court in his last year because it just wouldn’t be right.  But in 2020, the landscape has changed so much so it would totally be the right thing to do according to Mitch.  Or like Dems blocking $600 unemployment insurance the Republicans suddenly approve of because the Dems would lose their negotiating power.  I feel absolutely horrible if there is anyone on here having to stress that due to negotiations.  I am so sick of politics right now.  I can’t wait until we slim down the hyper political aspect of every day life.  Both sides are awful and do nothing to advance my way of life.  Now both sides are actually harming it in their own way in ways we haven’t seen in this country in around 100 years.

I tend to lean liberal and I'll admit there are problems on both sides.  McConnell has only ever been concerned with his (and by extension, GOP) power, that's why he pulled that Supreme Court stunt; he originally said it's an election year so the next president should decide, then when asked he moved the goal post because they had more power.  A lot of changes need to be made but won't because neither party benefits; term limits are near the top of the list, there wasn't even presidential term limits originally.

People going back to work safely is one thing, throwing caution to the wall and going full bore because the stock market goes down is something else entirely.  The stock market is a very incomplete measure of the economy anyway, and in the last 3.5 years underlying metrics were never as rosey as the stock market would lead you to believe but that's unrelated.

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16 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

I think with the first part I would disagree some. I think every democrat I know wants to get back to work, but safely.  Me working at Lincoln there are over 3,000 people in that building so we are looking at middle of next year at the earliest.  Some people have been laid off due to that, and others that obviously work out in the field.  Luckily I haven’t had to deal with that, but I am friends with plenty that have.

The second part, I will absolutely agree with that.  It has been a one up for years and it’s old.  On both sides.  Just today it is coming out there was a national response being set up to testing and they held off when it was mainly blue states being infected due to Trumps insistence to make blue states look bad.  Or how Mitch McConnell blocking Obama’s pick for the Supreme Court in his last year because it just wouldn’t be right.  But in 2020, the landscape has changed so much so it would totally be the right thing to do according to Mitch.  Or like Dems blocking $600 unemployment insurance the Republicans suddenly approve of because the Dems would lose their negotiating power.  I feel absolutely horrible if there is anyone on here having to stress that due to negotiations.  I am so sick of politics right now.  I can’t wait until we slim down the hyper political aspect of every day life.  Both sides are awful and do nothing to advance my way of life.  Now both sides are actually harming it in their own way in ways we haven’t seen in this country in around 100 years.

I generally agree with you. But regardless the solution is not to have gone home having done nothing. They are going home so vulnerable republicans can campaign for their reelection. Versus actually serving their constituents. 
 

The senate passing something can not be stopped by the Democrats. The senate doesn’t need democrats they have a 6 person advantage. They can’t even agree within the party what they want to pass.

Had the senate passed something I would agree the blame goes to both sides here.  But they went home to serve their own interests and not their constituents  

The house passed something like 6 weeks ago and the senate sat on their hands doing nothing.  
 

 

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1 minute ago, Brass Cannon said:

I generally agree with you. But regardless the solution is not to have gone home having done nothing. They are going home so vulnerable republicans can campaign for their reelection. Versus actually serving their constituents. 
 

The senate passing something can not be stopped by the Democrats. The senate doesn’t need democrats they have a 6 person advantage. They can’t even agree within the party what they want to pass.

Had the senate passed something I would agree the blame goes to both sides here.  But they went home to serve their own interests and not their constituents  

The house passed something like 6 weeks ago and the senate sat on their hands doing nothing.  
 

 

The senate should have been working on it weeks ago.  As you said, the HEROES act is sitting on McConnell's desk collecting dust (like a number of bills the house has passed, some bipartisan IIRC).  They could've easily started with that and worked on negotiating down, instead of starting from scratch at the last minute with something his own party can't unite behind.

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12 minutes ago, JSHoosier said:

The senate should have been working on it weeks ago.  As you said, the HEROES act is sitting on McConnell's desk collecting dust (like a number of bills the house has passed, some bipartisan IIRC).  They could've easily started with that and worked on negotiating down, instead of starting from scratch at the last minute with something his own party can't unite behind.

So here is my opinion where both sides are wrong and both came out looking like trash.  When the Dems passed that they know that is the extreme side of their wish list.  They knew if the economy turned around like the Republicans expected their bill was an afterthought they could play off as trying to be proactive, fully knowing nothing on that bill would get enough votes.  The Republicans waited to see the various reports to see what and where the money was needed for and what was successful.  The Dems absolutely knew the Republicans would do that and they honestly were waiting on the same data regardless of what they passed.  
 

The Republicans are split, more than the Dems because they can see polls and know where this is headed irregardless of conspiracy theories.  I truly felt they wanted to start negotiating middle of last week to beat the deadline of yesterday.  They again are so split they just didn’t.  Both bills are so far apart they should have negotiated a month ago.  Dems are sitting strongest at the table as of today.  Republicans were hoping to take some leverage away from them by offering the $600 extension on unemployment they were vehemently against a week ago and the stimulus piecemeal.  That didn’t happen due to negotiating power.  I understand why both sides have done everything they have so far for this bill.  But because we are so divided there was no chance in passing this in a week or up to two weeks.  Much like the shutdown a couple of years ago there will be no progress until a section of Americans are hurt.  That is the fundamental failure of this Congress as a whole imo.  We should all pray for the millions that will as of tomorrow be eligible to lose their homes and be at least $600 poorer per week.  I am guessing they get something done within 2 weeks. 
 

 

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4 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

So here is my opinion where both sides are wrong and both came out looking like trash.  When the Dems passed that they know that is the extreme side of their wish list.  They knew if the economy turned around like the Republicans expected their bill was an afterthought they could play off as trying to be proactive, fully knowing nothing on that bill would get enough votes.  The Republicans waited to see the various reports to see what and where the money was needed for and what was successful.  The Dems absolutely knew the Republicans would do that and they honestly were waiting on the same data regardless of what they passed.  
 

The Republicans are split, more than the Dems because they can see polls and know where this is headed irregardless of conspiracy theories.  I truly felt they wanted to start negotiating middle of last week to beat the deadline of yesterday.  They again are so split they just didn’t.  Both bills are so far apart they should have negotiated a month ago.  Dems are sitting strongest at the table as of today.  Republicans were hoping to take some leverage away from them by offering the $600 extension on unemployment they were vehemently against a week ago and the stimulus piecemeal.  That didn’t happen due to negotiating power.  I understand why both sides have done everything they have so far for this bill.  But because we are so divided there was no chance in passing this in a week or up to two weeks.  Much like the shutdown a couple of years ago there will be no progress until a section of Americans are hurt.  That is the fundamental failure of this Congress as a whole imo.  We should all pray for the millions that will as of tomorrow be eligible to lose their homes and be at least $600 poorer per week.  I am guessing they get something done within 2 weeks. 
 

 

If you think the economy had any chance of restarting then I guess I can see where you are coming from saying the Dems were just being political.  
 

But the experts were saying regardless that the economy wasn’t going to recover. This bill was going to be needed regardless.  Flatten the curve or not. My former employer was going to be rehiring the quarter of its workforce it laid off.  It wasn’t going to happen.  These programs were needed.  They are more imperative now that it clear that reopening was a flawed strategy.  
 

Were the democrats waiting to see how bad it was. Sure they were but they knew this was needed. It wasn’t an if it was needed situation. 

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13 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

If you think the economy had any chance of restarting then I guess I can see where you are coming from saying the Dems were just being political.  
 

But the experts were saying regardless that the economy wasn’t going to recover. This bill was going to be needed regardless.  Flatten the curve or not. My former employer was going to be rehiring the quarter of its workforce it laid off.  It wasn’t going to happen.  These programs were needed.  They are more imperative now that it clear that reopening was a flawed strategy.  
 

Were the democrats waiting to see how bad it was. Sure they were but they knew this was needed. It wasn’t an if it was needed situation. 

Depends on your definition of the economy starting.  It never truly 100% shut down.  It’s not going to be fully open for another year.  Service jobs as we know them probably won’t ever be the same.  I had and have no misgivings about the Service, and Travel and Leisure industries.  People just won’t be there 100%.  But if we can do certain things differently and in as safe a way as possible why wouldn’t we?  Being in a room that seats 150 and is jam packed just won’t happen.  Trying to tell all its 100% safe or 100% unsafe isn’t the answer imo.  We are still Americans who at every turn have done the unthinkable.  Maybe if we could collectively sit at a table and put everything out there, not all has to be black and white or political.  And I don’t disagree with you that the programs are wanted it just becomes a question what is truly needed within the wants of all.  We will get there, but I doubt the political scorecards will assist in that process.  It’s really only hampering us from both sides.  That’s what November is for.

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2 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

Depends on your definition of the economy starting.  It never truly 100% shut down.  It’s not going to be fully open for another year.  Service jobs as we know them probably won’t ever be the same.  I had and have no misgivings about the Service, and Travel and Leisure industries.  People just won’t be there 100%.  But if we can do certain things differently and in as safe a way as possible why wouldn’t we?  Being in a room that seats 150 and is jam packed just won’t happen.  Trying to tell all its 100% safe or 100% unsafe isn’t the answer imo.  We are still Americans who at every turn have done the unthinkable.  Maybe if we could collectively sit at a table and put everything out there, not all has to be black and white or political.  And I don’t disagree with you that the programs are wanted it just becomes a question what is truly needed within the wants of all.  We will get there, but I doubt the political scorecards will assist in that process.  It’s really only hampering us from both sides.  That’s what November is for.

That’s my point was never going to start back up overnight hence why the heroes act was needed and why McConnell should have started negotiating the second it passed. 
 

It’s how our system is supposed to work. He didn’t even put it up for a vote because he was afraid it might pass.  And then they waited till the last minute to do one of their own. 
 

November is crucial for sure 

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If you have ever spoken to a drunk politician you'll find out what is really going on.  I have had them flat out say if they actually solve problems then there is nothing to campaign on.  It's the old adage, if the D's want jobs and the R's want jobs, why aren't there any jobs?  

There is an easy solution to the $600 problem.  Make the unemployed whole up to $600 max.  So if the guy is $200 short of his normal weekly check, he gets a $200 supplement.  If he's $400 short, he gets $400.  If he's $1000 short, he's capped at $600.  Incentive is there to get back to work without punishing those who can't yet.  

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2 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

That’s my point was never going to start back up overnight hence why the heroes act was needed and why McConnell should have started negotiating the second it passed. 
 

It’s how our system is supposed to work. He didn’t even put it up for a vote because he was afraid it might pass.  And then they waited till the last minute to do one of their own. 
 

November is crucial for sure 

I think that’s one where we will agree to disagree.  I don’t know how you make decisions on trillions of dollars without seeing what works and what doesn’t.  Starting to negotiate that size of a package as soon as the last one passes is just impossible without data.  At that point we would truly be running blind.  Now there are things in the short term I would have liked to have seen done, like funding for PPE, testing, and contact tracing.  But I don’t think either side was doing that as they would have lost negotiating power.

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5 minutes ago, Golfman25 said:

If you have ever spoken to a drunk politician you'll find out what is really going on.  I have had them flat out say if they actually solve problems then there is nothing to campaign on.  It's the old adage, if the D's want jobs and the R's want jobs, why aren't there any jobs?  

There is an easy solution to the $600 problem.  Make the unemployed whole up to $600 max.  So if the guy is $200 short of his normal weekly check, he gets a $200 supplement.  If he's $400 short, he gets $400.  If he's $1000 short, he's capped at $600.  Incentive is there to get back to work without punishing those who can't yet.  

If we had a system that could actually do it I would be all for it.  We essentially crashed that system when we added a flat $600.  This is where I hope that system gets to within the next few years.  It is so antiquated it’s scary.

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5 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

I think that’s one where we will agree to disagree.  I don’t know how you make decisions on trillions of dollars without seeing what works and what doesn’t.  Starting to negotiate that size of a package as soon as the last one passes is just impossible without data.  At that point we would truly be running blind.  Now there are things in the short term I would have liked to have seen done, like funding for PPE, testing, and contact tracing.  But I don’t think either side was doing that as they would have lost negotiating power.

The Cares act passed two months before the heroes act.  The initial data was in already in. Doubt much of any meaningful data was showing up in the next 6 weeks.  And even then the Republicans could have had the framework of a bill ready with particulars filled in last week  for quick passage Instead they had nothing  

 

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13 minutes ago, Golfman25 said:

If you have ever spoken to a drunk politician you'll find out what is really going on.  I have had them flat out say if they actually solve problems then there is nothing to campaign on.  It's the old adage, if the D's want jobs and the R's want jobs, why aren't there any jobs?  

There is an easy solution to the $600 problem.  Make the unemployed whole up to $600 max.  So if the guy is $200 short of his normal weekly check, he gets a $200 supplement.  If he's $400 short, he gets $400.  If he's $1000 short, he's capped at $600.  Incentive is there to get back to work without punishing those who can't yet.  

I understand this thought process, but a lot of families (and businesses but that is another matter) budget with the assumption that they won't be receiving a $800 paycut.* If you have a mortgage, a car payment, plus bills - something like what your proposing would lead to a lot of bankruptcies and foreclosures. 

*I know stuff happens (I got laid off four days before my wedding) and in a perfect world everyone has an emergency fund, but that isn't the case for most people.

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18 minutes ago, Golfman25 said:

If you have ever spoken to a drunk politician you'll find out what is really going on.  I have had them flat out say if they actually solve problems then there is nothing to campaign on.  It's the old adage, if the D's want jobs and the R's want jobs, why aren't there any jobs?  

There is an easy solution to the $600 problem.  Make the unemployed whole up to $600 max.  So if the guy is $200 short of his normal weekly check, he gets a $200 supplement.  If he's $400 short, he gets $400.  If he's $1000 short, he's capped at $600.  Incentive is there to get back to work without punishing those who can't yet.  

 

Love the first part of your post about a drunk politician, but the second part? That's nowhere near an easy solution. There would need to be either a whole new level of government oversight to determine 'how short' someone is from their normal paycheck, or we could take their word for it, have everyone request the full $600, and be right back where we started.

Like many things, identifying the problem is far easier than identifying the solution. 

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