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Class of '66 Old Fart

Coronavirus and Its Impact

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2 hours ago, Brass Cannon said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/sweden-coronavirus-cases-deaths-fall-not-mean-lockdown-plan-worked-2020-7%3famp

The fact it ran rampant for a time and is now slowing down doesn’t mean a lockdown wouldn’t have saved lives. 
 

Plus there was still considerable damage done to their economy.  
 

And oh yeah their deaths per million people is higher than ours. Our failure wasn’t because of the lockdown. Our failure is the lockdown wasn’t complete and seen thru to the end. Hence why areas are now reimposing new lockdowns. 
 

 

The article that you cited states that Sweden's daily deaths are approaching 0 and their daily cases are now 1/6 that of their peak. Their deaths per million is lower than Belgium, Italy, Spain, and the U.K., despite all four having serious lockdowns. Belgium and Sweden have similar populations. Belgium shut down on March 17th, but they fared worse than Sweden. 

If economically ruinous lockdowns were the only solution to the pandemic, then you'd expect Sweden to have been a complete disaster. Yet, they weren't. Their hospitals were never overrun. They had the capacity to treat all of their covid patients. Their ICUs were never at full capacity. They kept businesses open. They kept schools open. Is that not a success? 

Locking down is a short-term solution to a long-term problem. A vaccine probably isn't going to be available for another year. Are we going to stay shutdown for the next year? Are we going to do enormous harm to children by keeping them out of school for an entire year because of a virus that statistically is no more dangerous to them than the flu? Because when you reopen, cases are going to grow. 'Flattening the curve' doesn't change the area under the curve. It just spreads out the sick people so they don't all get sick at once. 

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2 hours ago, Brass Cannon said:

Tough realization?  
 

I think about that woman who died of Covid and her 30 week unborn baby?  Could those two people have been saved if a bunch of people hadn’t valued their freedom to not have cloth on their face over their lives.  

No. Just your ideology is god awful.  Your understanding of science is similar. 

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8 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

The article that you cited states that Sweden's daily deaths are approaching 0 and their daily cases are now 1/6 that of their peak. Their deaths per million is lower than Belgium, Italy, Spain, and the U.K., despite all four having serious lockdowns. Belgium and Sweden have similar populations. Belgium shut down on March 17th, but they fared worse than Sweden. 

If economically ruinous lockdowns were the only solution to the pandemic, then you'd expect Sweden to have been a complete disaster. Yet, they weren't. Their hospitals were never overrun. They had the capacity to treat all of their covid patients. Their ICUs were never at full capacity. They kept businesses open. They kept schools open. Is that not a success? 

Locking down is a short-term solution to a long-term problem. A vaccine probably isn't going to be available for another year. Are we going to stay shutdown for the next year? Are we going to do enormous harm to children by keeping them out of school for an entire year because of a virus that statistically is no more dangerous to them than the flu? Because when you reopen, cases are going to grow. 'Flattening the curve' doesn't change the area under the curve. It just spreads out the sick people so they don't all get sick at once. 

Great post with statistics and logic.  Appreciated.  Agree.

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You can look at the other virus site. I talk about a Dominican kid 22yrs old that I fish with. I am happy to say he and his twin brother are “die hard” Trump supporters! They both are leaders in their group of friends and that they are all now Trump supporters! Yes indeed! I’m doing my part! They know what Marxismimage.jpeg is from that part of the Caribbean !


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9 hours ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Sweden's deaths have plummeted. The vast majority of their deaths were in nursing homes. Here is their death curve. They never shutdown and yet are in a much better position than the United States. Shutting down was a massive mistake and we are going to face the consequences of it for a long time. 

image.thumb.png.1caa3c89f79ae1a6d35e2f2fcfc4c755.png 

Sweden's top epidemiologist disagrees with you.  Even he says they should've done more.

Their deaths per 100k is higher than ours as well, per Johns Hopkins.  That's with one of the world's best healthcare systems.

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6 hours ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

No. Just your ideology is god awful.  Your understanding of science is similar. 

Lol the mask literally protects other people. Your refusal to wear it means your choosing to risk harming people. Spout BS about personal freedom all you want.  But all you are is selfish 

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7 hours ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

The article that you cited states that Sweden's daily deaths are approaching 0 and their daily cases are now 1/6 that of their peak. Their deaths per million is lower than Belgium, Italy, Spain, and the U.K., despite all four having serious lockdowns. Belgium and Sweden have similar populations. Belgium shut down on March 17th, but they fared worse than Sweden. 

If economically ruinous lockdowns were the only solution to the pandemic, then you'd expect Sweden to have been a complete disaster. Yet, they weren't. Their hospitals were never overrun. They had the capacity to treat all of their covid patients. Their ICUs were never at full capacity. They kept businesses open. They kept schools open. Is that not a success? 

Locking down is a short-term solution to a long-term problem. A vaccine probably isn't going to be available for another year. Are we going to stay shutdown for the next year? Are we going to do enormous harm to children by keeping them out of school for an entire year because of a virus that statistically is no more dangerous to them than the flu? Because when you reopen, cases are going to grow. 'Flattening the curve' doesn't change the area under the curve. It just spreads out the sick people so they don't all get sick at once. 

Lol literally the Swedish government disagrees with you. Besides their economy still took a hit.  And their death rate is dropping but tons of people already gas to die. 

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Lol the mask literally protects other people. Your refusal to wear it means your choosing to risk harming people. Spout BS about personal freedom all you want.  But all you are is selfish 
Where in your little world did you see him spouting about "freedoms"? You are as bad as the one's you try shaming. You're (see how I used that) constantly insulting people, judging them based on their points of view on a topic, replying in condescending tones which in itself is ironic and closing your mind off to sensible counter arguments with childish replies like "lol" or "haha". You are so far to one side you're never going to see the middle and that's the problem in America today. Way too many people are so one sided that I fear the "middle ground" has been lost and nobody cares to come off their stance long enough to listen, honestly listen, to anything that could challenge their beliefs. It's not just you man. It's a vast majority of the country and that's what is sad. The irony of people telling others that they are on one side while saying it from as far to the other side as possible really baffles me and I've seen enough in this year to make me fear for humanity as a whole.

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16 minutes ago, rcs29 said:

Where in your little world did you see him spouting about "freedoms"? You are as bad as the one's you try shaming. You're (see how I used that) constantly insulting people, judging them based on their points of view on a topic, replying in condescending tones which in itself is ironic and closing your mind off to sensible counter arguments with childish replies like "lol" or "haha". You are so far to one side you're never going to see the middle and that's the problem in America today. Way too many people are so one sided that I fear the "middle ground" has been lost and nobody cares to come off their stance long enough to listen, honestly listen, to anything that could challenge their beliefs. It's not just you man. It's a vast majority of the country and that's what is sad. The irony of people telling others that they are on one side while saying it from as far to the other side as possible really baffles me and I've seen enough in this year to make me fear for humanity as a whole.

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The poster he was replying to didn't say freedoms, but you'd be surprised the number of people of heard/seen say wearing a mask takes away their freedoms.

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The poster he was replying to didn't say freedoms, but you'd be surprised the number of people of heard/seen say wearing a mask takes away their freedoms.
Ok so then it's making character assumptions or stereotyping. That makes it better

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Public confidence in Sweden's government is dropping and their Prime Minister announced an inquiry into their handling of this virus.  When you adjust for population their deaths surpass ours.  An epidemiologist at a medical research university in Stockholm said if any country in Europe sees a second spike it'll most likely be them, because they're not doing much to stop it.

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2 hours ago, Brass Cannon said:

Lol literally the Swedish government disagrees with you. Besides their economy still took a hit.  And their death rate is dropping but tons of people already gas to die. 

"If we were to run into the same disease, knowing exactly what we know about it today, I think we would end up doing something in between what Sweden did and what the rest of the world has done," Anders Tegnell, Sweden's state epidemiologist told Swedish radio Wednesday.

Tagnell said that, in time, it might become clear which measures, taken elsewhere, could have been effective in Sweden. "Maybe we will find this out now that people have started removing measures, one at a time. And then maybe we will still get some kind of information on what, in addition to what we did, we could do without adopting a total lockdown."

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/03/sweden-coronavirus-strategy-expert-admits-it-could-have-done-better.html

Where does the Swedish government "literally disagree with me"? They still maintain that they would not do a full-scale lockdown like the rest of the world if they ran into the same disease today. Sure, more could have done. One can assume Dr. Tegnell largely means that more could have been done in Swedish nursing homes, because that's where the vast majority of Sweden's deaths occurred and they have said multiple times that more could have been done to help the elderly. Locking down the healthy population doesn't do a whole lot to protect the elderly, as seen in states like New York where thousands upon thousands of people in nursing homes have died. 

Yes, their economy took a hit. That was going to happen regardless because we are in a global pandemic. No country is going to come out of this without taking a hit. What matters is the size of the hit, and their hit is going to be much smaller than ours. Their unemployment rate is at 7.9%, which looks fantastic compared to ours. 

Additionally, the popular narrative at the beginning of the pandemic was never "minimize the number of deaths at any and all cost." It was "flatten the curve so that hospitals are not overrun and people are not dying because they cannot get medical care." Now, that has changed. If our goal as a society is to minimize the number of deaths at all costs, then there are a number of other things we should do too in every day life.

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2 hours ago, Brass Cannon said:

Lol the mask literally protects other people. Your refusal to wear it means your choosing to risk harming people. Spout BS about personal freedom all you want.  But all you are is selfish 

The mask only "literally protects other people" if you actually have the virus. Otherwise, it is useless. Additionally, Los Angeles has had a mask mandate since April and their cases continue to skyrocket. I can't imagine there are a whole lot of people "spouting BS about personal freedom" in deep blue Los Angeles. Maybe, just maybe, the masks don't help as much as people want to believe that they do. 

I don't like masks because they're incredibly uncomfortable, especially outside in the heat. It has nothing to do with "personal freedom." I'll wear one if I'm in a business that requires it or if I'm visiting elderly relatives. I'm not going to give an employee a hard time if the store requires a mask. But I'm not going to wear one if I'm just hanging out outside, going for a hike, at the park, etc. It's not necessary.

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Where in your little world did you see him spouting about "freedoms"? You are as bad as the one's you try shaming. You're (see how I used that) constantly insulting people, judging them based on their points of view on a topic, replying in condescending tones which in itself is ironic and closing your mind off to sensible counter arguments with childish replies like "lol" or "haha". You are so far to one side you're never going to see the middle and that's the problem in America today. Way too many people are so one sided that I fear the "middle ground" has been lost and nobody cares to come off their stance long enough to listen, honestly listen, to anything that could challenge their beliefs. It's not just you man. It's a vast majority of the country and that's what is sad. The irony of people telling others that they are on one side while saying it from as far to the other side as possible really baffles me and I've seen enough in this year to make me fear for humanity as a whole.

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So much this..

When did we become so opposed to others thinking?! We can’t even let another person get out a full thought before we start bashing them for their beliefs. I’m guilty of it sometimes too but attempt to step back and think of different perspectives. I fear we’re so divided as a nation that this next year, while waiting on a vaccine, will rip this country to shreds. I’m sure our (great) (great) grandparents are ashamed of us. They sacrificed so much and we’re struggling to implement small inconveniences due to being pissed at the “other side.” Life man...


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So much this..

When did we become so opposed to others thinking?! We can’t even let another person get out a full thought before we start bashing them for their beliefs. I’m guilty of it sometimes too but attempt to step back and think of different perspectives. I fear we’re so divided as a nation that this next year, while waiting on a vaccine, will rip this country to shreds. I’m sure our (great) (great) grandparents are ashamed of us. They sacrificed so much and we’re struggling to implement small inconveniences due to being pissed at the “other side.” Life man...


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It's not just political either this is how we've become in general. I also agree that the one's before us would be ashamed and probably down right angry with what we've made of a great opportunity.

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I have seen a lot of stories on how Sweden is a cautionary tale [also note in that story reports that it doesn't look like Sweden was able to stave off the economic damage suffered everywhere else, possibly be due to international trade but likely resulting from people remaining home despite businesses being open (kind of like what some places are seeing now in parts of the US)] and an example of not how to handle COVID-19. That being said, Sweden's approach has resulted in fewer deaths than expected, but their mortality rate is now higher than the US

Something that I think gets lost in the discussion is the cultural differences between a Scandinavian country like Sweden (people tend to like to keep their distance from strangers and it looks like a lot of people self isolated despite the country still being open) and the United States (much more likely to chat with a stranger, pivoted life to as normal once restrictions lifted). Judging by the numbers compared else where and what I can gather from what those that know are telling me, if your concern is public health, it doesn't look like either country is the best example of how to handle this situation.

I will note that both countries governments are beginning to consider the use of masks in public places where socially distancing isn't possible.

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1 hour ago, HoosierAloha said:


So much this..

When did we become so opposed to others thinking?! We can’t even let another person get out a full thought before we start bashing them for their beliefs. I’m guilty of it sometimes too but attempt to step back and think of different perspectives. I fear we’re so divided as a nation that this next year, while waiting on a vaccine, will rip this country to shreds. I’m sure our (great) (great) grandparents are ashamed of us. They sacrificed so much and we’re struggling to implement small inconveniences due to being pissed at the “other side.” Life man...


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I don’t think it will change discourse when a vaccine comes out considering the number of people who don’t believe science is real.

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9 minutes ago, brumdog45 said:

I don’t think it will change discourse when a vaccine comes out considering the number of people who don’t believe science is real.

Science isn't a uniform body with black and white, right and wrong, answers on every single issue. Reasonable scientists come to different conclusions on issues all the time. I've noticed that a lot of the people who say "believe science" (not talking about you specifically, just a general comment about things I've noticed) they really mean "believe my science."

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