Hoosierfan2017

Those guys are so entertaining. I love when games are on TNT in large part because of them. Much more entertaining than what ESPN puts out.

Oh I don't disagree at all that he's had lots of help. I just get annoyed when I see things like "oh he had to team up with other superstars to win". Like, yeah, he's played with other great players. So did the other all time greats. Magic got drafted onto the Lakers when they already had Kareem. Larry Bird had Kevin McHale and Robert Parish. MJ had Pippen. Kobe had Shaq, etc. They all had front offices that could bring in talent so they didn't have to go out and do it on their own like LeBron.

He's being sarcastic. But for someone who has had "plenty of help", it's pretty crazy that he's led his team in points, assists and rebounds in 3x as many games as the next closest player in NBA history.

Kyrie wanted to play in a big market and wanted to be "the guy" on his team. He knew that wasn't going to happen in Cleveland. Nothing wrong with that, but that's not on LeBron. Kyrie's dad is also Lavar Ball-like, so he had that voice whispering in his ear. Spoelstra is a pretty good coach. LeBron is a tough guy to coach, but he respected Pat Riley and listened to him. When he went back to Cleveland they had already hired David Blatt. Then when they fired him they promoted from within. The good coaches in the NBA are already settled into their teams. The Knicks did just hire Fizdale to try getting LeBron in free agency, though. Again, LeBron isn't the GM of the team. He wasn't the one who flipped half the roster. Sure, I assume he gives them his opinion, but it's not like he's up there calling the shots.

No. He's using these things as ammunition against LeBron, yet the same things apply to Jordan so it's a wash. Is LeBron an a$$hole who gets on his teammates? Yeah, probably. But so what? Jordan did the same thing.

1. Has LeBron dogged teammates? - I guess? Depends on what you think "dogging teammates" is. Let's look at some of Jordan's quotes about his teammates. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/445705-i-wanna-be-like-wilt-not-like-mike "You're an idiot. You've screwed up every play we ever ran. You're too stupid to even remember the plays. We ought to get rid of you." - Michael to Horace Grant "They don't need a ticket to watch you sitting on the bench. They can go to your house for that." - Michael to Charles Davis who was sorting through his tickets for his family and friends "I hate being out there with those garbage men. They don't get you the ball." "He was scared in there and panicking. He just lost it when Stockton scored." - Michael on B.J. Armstrong's mental fragility" "He can't do anything with the ball. Don't give it to him." - Michael yelling at Paxson who passed the ball to Purdue Then there were the multiple instances of Jordan punching teammates in the face. 2. Has he help rid the team of a coach? He didn't like David Blatt. Did he help them get rid of him? Probably. Not everyone is blessed with an all-time great head coach like Phil Jackson. 3. Has he played GM and failed miserably? No. LeBron didn't want the Cavs to trade Kyrie, but they did anyway. The idea that he is the Cavs' GM and makes all the moves is a silly, played out narrative. Jordan has actually been a GM, and he failed miserably. Kwame Brown, anyone?

Pippen has won a playoff series without Michael Jordan. Jordan never won multiple playoff games without Scottie Pippen.

Alright man, you're not serious about having an actual discussion. Thanks for letting me know. What does Richard Jefferson know? You surely have a better insight into the kind of teammate LeBron is! https://twitter.com/FOXSports/status/986638554104086529

Jordan only shot 43.4% from the field over his last three finals. The Bulls were a well-oiled machine, and he was the most important part, but he still had a great supporting cast. You can't just give him all the credit for their championships without acknowledging the help he had.

Why are you entirely ignoring the fact that Scottie Pippen was one of the best defenders in the league when Jordan had him? He made 8 straight all-NBA defensive teams. Jordan didn't have to guard the other team's best player because he had Scottie. You're wanting to dismiss him, but look what happened the year Scottie didn't have Jordan. In 1992-1993, with Jordan, they won 57 games. The next year, without Jordan, they won 55 games. Seems like he wasn't half bad. If Jordan didn't have a great supporting cast why did they only lose 2 fewer games without him?

Wade was better than Pippen at one point, but not once he teamed up with LeBron. Wade's peak was before LeBron joined Miami. Pippen gets the edge, imo, because of his defense. He made 2 all-NBA first teams while playing with Jordan and 6 all-NBA defensive first teams while playing with Jordan. Wade never made either all-NBA first team while playing with LeBron. Pippen was also much more reliable than Wade. During the Bulls' first 3 peat he played in 82, 82, and 81 regular season games. Wade was often injured. He played in 76, 49 (lockout year, team only played 66 games), 69 and 54. Love's the better offensive player vs. Pippen, but his defense is awful. Pippen is the better overall player when you take defense into account. The only data I can find on how many elimination games he has played in is a few years old. I imagine he's played in many more than Jordan, but the number of games doesn't affect the averages. I wasn't comparing their raw stats in elimination games. Just their averages. LeBron has played against some very tough teams in the NBA Finals. 2011 against Dallas was the only one he lost that he should have won. 2007 - He faced San Antonio when they were at their best. He was only 22 and had one of the worst supporting casts in NBA Finals history. Just look at that roster. 2011 - He came up small and he lost. That series was on him. 2014 - Faced the Spurs again. They were simply the better team. 2015 - Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving were both injured. They win that series if they were healthy. 2017 - Golden State was unstoppable. Best team in NBA history, imo. I'll try to find the graphic that compares LeBron's finals competition to Jordan's.

Dwyane Wade won a championship in 2006, which, if you remember, many people thought was "stolen" from the Mavs by the NBA. He also had a pretty good teammate named Shaquille O'Neal that year. Wade shot more free throws in games 5 and 6 than the entire Mavs team. As much as you like to say that the NBA is the "NBE", I'm surprised that you're not all over that conspiracy. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080911124226AA8MNiE Wade then played in three more postseasons before Lebron came. He got swept in the first round in 06/07. He missed the playoffs entirely in 07/08. He went 15-67 that year. (He was hurt for part of the year, but he still played 51 games). He lost in the first round 3-4 in 08/09. He lost in the first round 1-4 in 09/10. So, Wade won a championship without LeBron (but with Shaq) in 2006. The next four years he got bounced in the first round 3 times and won 15 games the other year. Then LeBron shows up and they go to 4 straight finals and win 2 championships.

Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade both fell off considerably during his time in Miami. Look at their playoff numbers during the last two years. Nothing to write home about. In 2013 Chris Bosh put up 12 ppg and 7 rpg. He was a role player. Dwyane Wade put up 16/5/5 during the playoffs that year. The next year Wade put up 18/4/4. Bosh put up 15 and 6. Joel Anthony was getting 19 minutes a game during the playoffs for that "super team". If he had a "super team", then Jordan's Bulls were whatever is beyond super team. Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen were better than Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh. It's funny how people act like LeBron is the first and only player to ever play with other hall of famers.

But LeBron has the most playoff sweeps in NBA history (12), so he hasn't exactly been "squeezing past opponents" either... He also has more double digit wins than Michael Jordan, and more series wins.

I'm not really sure where you got the 3-7.. I tried to put everything I had to say into one lengthy post so that way things don't drag out for several pages and clog up the thread. Well, two posts because I wanted a follow up one. Otherwise I know I'll get sucked into a debate and not be able to stop myself, lol. If you disagree with parts of my post and want to debate them then it might be best for us to just make a separate thread

And none of that is to say that I think Michael Jordan sucked. I wasn't alive to watch him live, but I've watched reruns of games online. He was phenomenal. 2nd best player of all time. I just think that LeBron is #1 if you look past the glamour of "6-0" in the finals and judge the two against each other as individuals. Judging individual players by team accomplishments like rings has never made much sense to me. It's also never made much sense to care about someone's "finals record". Would LeBron's resume be more impressive if he had lost in the ECF those 5 years instead of the finals? No, of course not. This year he'll drag the Cavs back to the finals but after the season all we'll hear about is how he's "3-6 in the finals." Last year he averaged 33.6/12/10 on 56.4% shooting, but it gets lost because he couldn't beat a team with the 2nd and 3rd best players in the world, a top 3 shooter of all time, and the DPOY. Sure, Jordan never lost in the finals, but it's not like he only played in those 6 seasons he won championships. He lost in the conference finals, semifinals, and first round. Losing in one of those 3 rounds isn't better than losing in the finals, so I don't get why so much is made about their "finals records".

I won't get into this debate too much, because no one is changing my mind that LeBron is the greatest ever, and I'm not changing anyone else's mind either, but I think Jordan and his era have been romanticized quite a bit. Jordan never won a playoff series without Scottie Pippen. He's 1-9 all-time in the playoffs without him. LeBron gets a lot of crap for "abandoning his team", but his organization wasn't nearly as competent as Michael Jordan's. LeBron played his first 7 years in Cleveland without them building a championship caliber team around him. Instead, they surrounded him with players like Drew Gooden, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Larry Hughes and Sasha Pavlovic. LeBron still took that squad to the NBA finals... When he was 22 years old. When Jordan was winning his championships he played in an NBA weakened by expansion. His finals competition was not nearly as stiff as LeBron's has been. His rise came when the Lakers, Pistons and Celtics fell. He never played a team nearly as good as the 73 win 2016 Warriors. The Warriors had to beg the second best player in the world to come join them after LeBron beat them. Jordan got the benefit of almost 2 full seasons of rest. If he doesn't retire in 1993 there's a chance he never wins 6 championships. People claim that he would've won 8 straight if he didn't retire, but that's doubtful. In fact, he came back and lost to the Magic in the conference semifinals in 1995. LeBron has played in 7 straight NBA finals. That's a ton of minutes on top of his heavy regular season load. He's already got over 53k NBA minutes on his body. Jordan only had 48,485 when he retired for good. As for handchecking... It still happens every game. LeBron was constantly getting handchecked on and off the ball by Toronto. LeBron is the better scorer, rebounder and passer. Jordan only averaged more per game because he took more shots. Jordan averaged 2.9 more points per game and 3.3 more shots. LeBron is also the better 3 point shooter. LeBron is more clutch. He shoots a higher percentage on game-tying/go-ahead field goals with under 10 seconds left in the postseason. He also has more career playoff buzzer beaters than Jordan and more playoff game winners. He's better in elimination games than Michael Jordan was. LeBron is #1 in playoff points, #1 in playoff steals, #3 in playoff assists, and #7 in playoff rebounds. He's the only player with at least 30k points, 8k rebounds and 8k assists. There has never been a better all-around player than LeBron James.

I'm fine with it. If the refs thought that it was a foul then they would call it, and sometimes they do. Players could also flop when he does it to draw a call if they'd like.

What do you mean?

Bloomington is the best city in the country and no one will convince be otherwise. IU is the perfect place to go to college. It's got everything you see when "college" gets depicted in movies/tv. The campus is one of the biggest selling points for players, imo.

This is how I see it too. LeBron's 6'8 265 pounds. Few players can actually move him. If he didn't "flop" and sell calls he would rarely get them because what looks like a foul on a smaller player doesn't look like one against tanks like LeBron and Shaq. Sure, he exaggerates, but he's still getting fouled on those plays. He gets the crap beat out of him throughout the game. He just makes it to where the refs can actually see it.

He already got his Vandy dorm assignment

That would be dope. Hockey looks like a cool spot. I've been wanting to get into it for a while now.

I've been reading the Toronto message boards and they're all really impressed by OG.

It's odd to me too. I don't really understand it. From my past conversations with mdn I don't think he hates LeBron. Other people here, though, certainly do. Like, okay, yeah he flops. He overreacts to sell calls, and he complains to the refs quite a bit. I'm sure it's annoying to watch if you're not a fan. But I dont think all that explains the hate because he's not the only one doing it. James Harden makes a living selling calls but he doesn't get nearly as much hate. I can get on YouTube and find clips of guys doing the same sort of thing 25-30 years ago. I don't expect everyone to like LeBron. He's not everyone's cup of tea and that's cool. I just have a hard time understanding the level of hatred so many people seem to have for him. The thing I understand the least is continuing to watch LeBron even though you hate him. I don't like Golden State, and I especially dislike Kevin Durant because he decided to join up with them, so I just don't watch any of their games. For the majority of the season I can block them out and pretend they don't exist. I don't get why people don't do the same with LeBron if they hate him so much.