Indiana vs Rutgers Game Thread

[Naturalhoosier 15,353]

Left ankle. So, no, thankfully.

 

And really too bad for Howard if he doesn't play. This is the game for an RB to rack up the numbers. Rutgers might as well not have a run-defense. 

Good. Let Divine put up 200 yards on them then.  

[Naturalhoosier 15,353]

IU is #70 and Rutgers is #79 on ESPNs Football Power Index.

In terms of efficiencies the two rank: 

 

Offense - Defense - Special Teams - Overall

IU 62.5 - 38.5 - 50.6 - 51.8

RU 52.2 - 25.0 - 81.5 - 41.1

[akhosrof 1,168]

Left ankle. So, no, thankfully.

And really too bad for Howard if he doesn't play. This is the game for an RB to rack up the numbers. Rutgers might as well not have a run-defense.

Good to hear Suds ankle isn't the plant. Our offense is not the same if we do not have the ability to push the ball downfield for big gains. Jones and Cobbs have big play potential but we need our QB to be able to make the strong throws.

Rutgers has a big play offense as well. We need to be able to shoot it out with them, if necessary.

[ALASKA HOOSIER 11,169]

[attachment=2738:2435950.jpg]

[OliviaPope40 6,295]

Just downloaded my tickets.

[Old Friend 8,389]

We learned last week how important Howard is.  Redding struggles to move the pile like Howard, and Indiana has a very slim margin for error.  Winning without Howard will be very difficult.  Hope you're right about Sudfeld, but I can't believe ankles (non-high ankle sprains especially) would keep those two guys out this long knowing what training and rehab is available to them.  Just seems like Indiana can't catch any kind of break...staying healthy at key positions among them.  Suspensions of key players.  Lack of quality depth at positions that sustain injuries, etc.    

 

This is one we need to get.

[Old Friend 8,389]

Left ankle. So, no, thankfully.

 

And really too bad for Howard if he doesn't play. This is the game for an RB to rack up the numbers. Rutgers might as well not have a run-defense. 

Landing on a bad ankle forces you to throw off your back foot.  The left ankle for a right hander is probably more of a problem than the plant ankle is.   Think about how it is landing on a sensitive ankle...  I'd rather have Howard healthy than Sudfeld because I think he makes a bigger difference.  Cameron is a decent enough arm to play a game like this.  

[MartintheMopMan 7,765]

Landing on a bad ankle forces you to throw off your back foot.  The left ankle for a right hander is probably more of a problem than the plant ankle is.   Think about how it is landing on a sensitive ankle...  I'd rather have Howard healthy than Sudfeld because I think he makes a bigger difference.  Cameron is a decent enough arm to play a game like this.  

I don't know enough about sports injuries to dispute this, but I am pretty sure that is not right. Just working from memory of NFL injuries and how they're talked about.

 

As for Howard v. Sudfeld, that's nuts. Cameron has an arm, but like, only in a literal sense. I'd rather have Cameron taking snaps as our RB than our QB. Sudfeld absolutely has a bigger impact.

 

Think of it this way, Tevin Coleman played last year when Suds was down, and he's better than Howard. Were we able to win?

[Old Friend 8,389]

I don't know enough about sports injuries to dispute this, but I am pretty sure that is not right. Just working from memory of NFL injuries and how they're talked about.

 

As for Howard v. Sudfeld, that's nuts. Cameron has an arm, but like, only in a literal sense. I'd rather have Cameron taking snaps as our RB than our QB. Sudfeld absolutely has a bigger impact.

 

Think of it this way, Tevin Coleman played last year when Suds was down, and he's better than Howard. Were we able to win?

You have to finish strong on your front side to make a good throw.  Otherwise, it's all arm, and therefore weak.  The front foot is actually more important for that reason.   You do plant and push with your back foot, and I'm not telling you it's easy or anything; but when you're going to land on a sensitive ankle, the natural tendency is to land as softly as possible so it doesn't hurt or tweak.  It happens naturally...and it's all but impossible to get past.  Anyone who's had a sprained ankle will understand.  I was both a pitcher and a quarterback at one time, and I've got plenty of experience with this exact scenario.  You can tape up an ankle enough to push off of it (plant/push ankle)  It never leaves the ground and doesn't take a pounding like the front foot does.  It's almost impossible to get past the mental block with your front foot.   The human brain is trained to know when pain's coming, and we ALL flinch.  We ALL pull back.  We did it as kids when we were going to the doctor to get shots.  It's a natural reaction.

 

We weren't able to win a year ago because our defense wasn't able to stop anybody and we had zero passing game because Diamont is just awful in that area.  He can run, but Cameron is a far better thrower.   We had one of the best rushing offenses in the country with Randle El and Williams several years ago and never made it to a bowl game solely because of defense.  Now, with balance, and a decent enough defense, I think Cameron is good enough at the passing game to win, but we need a running game.  Howard is far better than Redding, and his numbers say he is actually as good as Coleman was.  Different, but equally productive.   Different team, different year.

[Hovadipo 52,937]

Landing on a bad ankle forces you to throw off your back foot. The left ankle for a right hander is probably more of a problem than the plant ankle is. Think about how it is landing on a sensitive ankle... I'd rather have Howard healthy than Sudfeld because I think he makes a bigger difference. Cameron is a decent enough arm to play a game like this.

Have to disagree on the plant/lead ankle part. That plant ankle is more important, though the lead ankle is still very important. If you have a bad plant ankle, you don't have a foot to throw off of, let alone a back foot. Either way it sucks, but I'd rather have a bum lead leg than plant leg where ALL of the power comes from.

[MartintheMopMan 7,765]

You have to finish strong on your front side to make a good throw.  Otherwise, it's all arm, and therefore weak.  The front foot is actually more important for that reason.   You do plant and push with your back foot, and I'm not telling you it's easy or anything; but when you're going to land on a sensitive ankle, the natural tendency is to land as softly as possible so it doesn't hurt or tweak.  It happens naturally...and it's all but impossible to get past.  Anyone who's had a sprained ankle will understand.  I was both a pitcher and a quarterback at one time, and I've got plenty of experience with this exact scenario.  You can tape up an ankle enough to push off of it (plant/push ankle)  It never leaves the ground and doesn't take a pounding like the front foot does.  It's almost impossible to get past the mental block with your front foot.   The human brain is trained to know when pain's coming, and we ALL flinch.  We ALL pull back.  We did it as kids when we were going to the doctor to get shots.  It's a natural reaction.

 

We weren't able to win a year ago because our defense wasn't able to stop anybody and we had zero passing game because Diamont is just awful in that area.  He can run, but Cameron is a far better thrower.   We had one of the best rushing offenses in the country with Randle El and Williams several years ago and never made it to a bowl game solely because of defense.  Now, with balance, and a decent enough defense, I think Cameron is good enough at the passing game to win, but we need a running game.  Howard is far better than Redding, and his numbers say he is actually as good as Coleman was.  Different, but equally productive.   Different team, different year.

Out of curiosity. When you rate Cameron's ability in the air, what is that based off of? I've only seen him make 16 attempts and... well it went terribly. Worse than Diamont.

[Old Friend 8,389]

Out of curiosity. When you rate Cameron's ability in the air, what is that based off of? I've only seen him make 16 attempts and... well it went terribly. Worse than Diamont.

I didn't think so.  Diamont to me looks like a little kid.  Just my opinion and the ball he throws.  The results were what they were.

[Old Friend 8,389]

Have to disagree on the plant/lead ankle part. That plant ankle is more important, though the lead ankle is still very important. If you have a bad plant ankle, you don't have a foot to throw off of, let alone a back foot. Either way it sucks, but I'd rather have a bum lead leg than plant leg where ALL of the power comes from.

Think of it this way....he rolled it because he landed on it wrong.  The brain will naturally protect that from happening again until it's healthy.  It's got nothing to do with toughness or any of that....and I agree; they both suck; but with the plant foot, at least you can control it.  With the landing foot, the brain sends a signal of "WATCH OUT OR YOU'LL HURT YOURSELF" as you're getting ready to land, and that forces a quarterback, pitcher, etc to be ginger on it.  It's one reason why Peyton Manning's throws were weak at times during the last couple of years.   Think "Kerri Strug."   Why was everyone so shocked?  It wasn't because she was able to run and push.  It was because she was able to stick the landing.

[MartintheMopMan 7,765]

I didn't think so.  Diamont to me looks like a little kid.  Just my opinion and the ball he throws.  The results were what they were.

No one will argue that Diamont has the build of a quarterback, just trying to get an idea of where you're coming from. Cameron had decent mechanics, but I would be surprised if he could even equal Diamont in the rest of the intangibles. Timing, playcalling, working under pressure, knowing when to scramble. Cameron also was wont for a lot of touch. Maybe these things could be fixed with a week of practice, but probably not. If a quarterback can't properly time the routes and throw predictively while under pressure, then they aren't ready for college starts. If Suds were hurt in a way that he was not coming back this year, it would be another lost season, regardless of if Howard plays.

 

I mean, even just from the numbers. 16 attempts for 6 completions with 1 INT and 1 sack? That's straight up horrible. 

[Hovadipo 52,937]

Think of it this way....he rolled it because he landed on it wrong. The brain will naturally protect that from happening again until it's healthy. It's got nothing to do with toughness or any of that....and I agree; they both suck; but with the plant foot, at least you can control it. With the landing foot, the brain sends a signal of "WATCH OUT OR YOU'LL HURT YOURSELF" as you're getting ready to land, and that forces a quarterback, pitcher, etc to be ginger on it. It's one reason why Peyton Manning's throws were weak at times during the last couple of years. Think "Kerri Strug." Why was everyone so shocked? It wasn't because she was able to run and push. It was because she was able to stick the landing.

Okay I'm speaking from experience here (high school QB glory boy incoming), if you don't have a plant foot you're losing the most important part of the QB position. If your plant foot is taken away, you have no basis for your throw. You're placing a large amount of weight there as you make your motion. The lead foot eventually takes on some of that weight, but not all of it. Think about what your brain would be telling Suds if his right ankle was hurt, "HEY MAN, IF YOU COULD NOT PUT ALL 225 (or whatever) ON ME, THAT'D BE FANTASTIC". It's all about how you shift your weight around. You can adjust how much weight you put on your lead foot, which makes it the less important (albeit still vital) of the two. If you adjust plant foot pressure, you better hope you have an absolute cannon because you'll be making arm throws all day and that is a recipe for disaster. Ask Zander.

[johnsoniu 6,064]

Okay I'm speaking from experience here (high school QB glory boy incoming), if you don't have a plant foot you're losing the most important part of the QB position. If your plant foot is taken away, you have no basis for your throw. You're placing a large amount of weight there as you make your motion. The lead foot eventually takes on some of that weight, but not all of it. Think about what your brain would be telling Suds if his right ankle was hurt, "HEY MAN, IF YOU COULD NOT PUT ALL 225 (or whatever) ON ME, THAT'D BE FANTASTIC". It's all about how you shift your weight around. You can adjust how much weight you put on your lead foot, which makes it the less important (albeit still vital) of the two. If you adjust plant foot pressure, you better hope you have an absolute cannon because you'll be making arm throws all day and that is a recipe for disaster. Ask Zander.

 They're both important, and a lot of it depends and the QB in question.

 

Its a transfer of weight issue. Suds is a power passer, watch his mechanics when he throws, he almost always has a big follow thru, putting a lot of stress on his landing foot. Yes, he generates some power from his plant foot, but his weight is rarely shifted all to his back foot. In high school you can get away with baseball type wind-up mechanics, Division 1 QBs don't have that luxury because of the speed of the game. That extra second it takes to transfer weight all the way back and all the way thru will get you hit. Often. And hard.

[HoosierReb01 7,511]

No one will argue that Diamont has the build of a quarterback, just trying to get an idea of where you're coming from. Cameron had decent mechanics, but I would be surprised if he could even equal Diamont in the rest of the intangibles. Timing, playcalling, working under pressure, knowing when to scramble. Cameron also was wont for a lot of touch. Maybe these things could be fixed with a week of practice, but probably not. If a quarterback can't properly time the routes and throw predictively while under pressure, then they aren't ready for college starts. If Suds were hurt in a way that he was not coming back this year, it would be another lost season, regardless of if Howard plays.

 

I mean, even just from the numbers. 16 attempts for 6 completions with 1 INT and 1 sack? That's straight up horrible. 

In the end, neither of them are ready to QB in college. They are both projects, and preferably should not be on the field. As for the timing, playcalling, etc., Cameron would gain a lot of that through experience. But not in a week of practices. Diamont hasn't shown that he is excelling at any of those either. He may be ahead of Cameron there, but he also has more experience to rely on. The one area that Diamont stands far and away from Cameron, is his ability to make plays with his feet. It looked to me, however, that he wasn't looking to do that a lot against PSU. I wonder if that wasn't a coaches call, due to lack of depth at QB, and Zander's size just seems to make me think he's vulnerable to the big hit. He's very good at ducking the worst of a hard hit, but there's always the one you don't see coming.

 

Overall, I do see more upside in Cameron. Not that there is a lot to base that on. But on the numbers, I'm not extremely swayed by them. Cameron made some good passes, and looked better than Zander doing it. Our receivers did neither of them any favors on a few passes. Cameron's INT looked to me to be fully on the WR. 

 

Conclusion. I really, REALLY hope SUDS is good to go for the rest of the year.

[HoosierReb01 7,511]

Looking forward to the game. I admit trepidation, but if Suds is back and is 90% good to go in all aspects, we should have enough to beat Rutgers at homecoming. The team should be hyped for that, and be determined to get that 5th win. If we don't find a way to make something happen out there, I'm going to really start to get worried about the program. Let's just get it done.

 

Stat that stands out to me. IU and Rutgers are statistically on different ends of the turnover advantage. Hoping our opportunistic young players take every advantage of mistakes.

[KingPG21 6,512]

 

We weren't able to win a year ago because our defense wasn't able to stop anybody and we had zero passing game because Diamont is just awful in that area.  He can run, but Cameron is a far better thrower.   We had one of the best rushing offenses in the country with Randle El and Williams several years ago and never made it to a bowl game solely because of defense.  Now, with balance, and a decent enough defense, I think Cameron is good enough at the passing game to win, but we need a running game.  Howard is far better than Redding, and his numbers say he is actually as good as Coleman was.  Different, but equally productive.   Different team, different year.

I mean..... saying Cameron is a far better thrower doesn't really mean much of anything, Zander still can't really throw the ball consistently at a FBS level. Also, if anything last year showed how important Sudfeld is to the offense, Coleman (who is considerably better than Howard) couldn't lift the team to anything last year. You're making the argument for defense, but outside of the Wake, whose offense is just awful, game and parts of the Ohio State game there is nothing that says our defense has taken the step that we can win without Sudfeld. 

 

I'm not saying Howard isn't a good running back, but just looking at the numbers doesn't even come close to doing service to what Coleman did last season. Howard has had a competent QB the whole time, played against nothing but awful defenses, and had an offensive line that is just one year more mature than Coleman's. Not to even really get into the whole eye test stuff, there isn't really an argument to be made that Howard has anywhere near the explosiveness that Coleman has/d

[Hovadipo 52,937]

@ChronicHoosier: Game day morning line favors #iufb by 5.5 over Rutgers, o/u 65.