I'm worried about in-state recruiting.

[hoosierpap 14,300]

9 hours ago, Baltimore Hoosier said:

I encourage people to do some research to find out how high school coaches in the state feel about Indiana and Crean as opposed to Painter or Holtmann. There are several articles floating around about how the connection isn't there and Crean hasn't developed the relationships.. 

When you have names like Hummel, Teague, Robinson, Harris, Dawson, Lyles, Blueitt, Swainigan, J Johnson, D Thomas, Guy, Irvin, (I could keep going) being recruited in the state where you should be dominating recruiting, and try to tell me that those aren't the "right players," I'm wondering what folks mean by that phrase. The "right player." 

The fact is, Indiana hasn't been able to land the top players from the state with any consistency over the last decade. If a guy is playing high school basketball in the state of Indiana, and perhaps from the state of Indiana, and is one of the top 50 players in the country coming out of high school, and the kid works hard, plays basketball at a high level, and is a good kid, why would you not put a large portion of your resources into that? And if those dominoes start to fall, then you've got a residual well to drink from (so-to-speak). You can't rely on Boo Williams to supply you with all of your recruits year after year.

 

 

 

2

It's certainly not the majority of HS coaches in state. But those select few, well....when the squeaky wheel DOESN'T get the oil...

 

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

12 hours ago, Baltimore Hoosier said:

 

When you try to be snarky then post incorrect data... Another wise cracking jokester.. 

I'm talking about budget within the state. The entire argument is that Indiana is not landing in state talent. And compared to the other teams in the state, my guess was, that indiana has the largest budget. I know some folks may not have jobs but posting in between client appointments makes it difficult to do a ton of fact checking and detective work before every post.

... How is that data incorrect? It's three years outdated, which I mentioned when I said, "this is 5 year data from 2013..."

You're now talking budget within the state, yet it was demonstrated to you earlier that Indiana isn't losing out on it's in-state targets to in-state schools; the real threats are from outside the state. It's very difficult to have a logical conversation when you constantly try to change the premise of your original argument.

Apologies for interrupting your busy schedule with facts. Like I said though, that Google search took me ten seconds, which I did between meetings :)

[HoosierAloha 29,890]

If you get the time id like to see how you feel about that? It's mostly facts if you still like dealing in those...

[Baltimore Hoosier 986]

On 9/1/2016 at 10:19 AM, Walking Boot of Doom said:

... How is that data incorrect? It's three years outdated, which I mentioned when I said, "this is 5 year data from 2013..."

You're now talking budget within the state, yet it was demonstrated to you earlier that Indiana isn't losing out on it's in-state targets to in-state schools; the real threats are from outside the state. It's very difficult to have a logical conversation when you constantly try to change the premise of your original argument.

Apologies for interrupting your busy schedule with facts. Like I said though, that Google search took me ten seconds, which I did between meetings :)

I have been constantly getting bombarded by different posters who are pulling me in different directions so it's very difficult for me to stay on one topic here. If you want to go back to the original argument, it's that Indiana hasn't recruited well within the state and have lost major recruits to other programs. I don't know how ANYONE could argue that, because it's fact. By the way, was I right about Indiana having the largest budget within the state of Indiana? Just checking.

 

22 hours ago, HoosierAloha said:

If you get the time id like to see how you feel about that? It's mostly facts if you still like dealing in those...

First of all, what's with the low blows? It seems to be your MO... No, I hate facts..... Come on man... 

To answer your question from the post, no, no one has consistently landed top Indiana talent based on your in-depth, year by year analysis. What I'm proposing is that maybe IU should be.  Maybe when the Langford's of the world are coming out of high school Indiana should want to be their destination. Guys like these are program changing talents. I think it starts with relationships within the state between Indiana coaches and individual high school coaches.

As far as whether or not Indiana is getting beat by other schools in the state in terms of recruiting, I would think that the school with the most resources and by far the most history and tradition would DOMINATE when it came to in-state recruiting battles. Yeah they have the slight edge when it comes to Top 50 players over the last decade, but is that good enough? 

[Stuhoo 75,564]

What program dominates with in-state recruits?

Maybe UCLA? Not sure ANY program does so, including all blue bloods.

[Baltimore Hoosier 986]

2 hours ago, Stuhoo said:

What program dominates with in-state recruits?

Maybe UCLA? Not sure ANY program does so, including all blue bloods.

Most of the other "blue bloods" like Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, and UCLA have the ability to thrive off of the top 5-10 players in the class for the most part and really have the pick of the litter nation-wide. And what do those schools have in common? Championships and or Final Fours in fairly recent history. IU doesn't compete well in that same recruiting space. So why not focus more on relationships within the state in an effort to try to win the top in-state guys? Indiana isn't the same as other states when it comes to high school basketball so comparing Indiana to Kentucky for example isn't apples to apples. A lot of other schools may not want to dominate their state when it comes to recruiting.

 

 

[JSHoosier 19,568]

2 hours ago, Stuhoo said:

What program dominates with in-state recruits?

Maybe UCLA? Not sure ANY program does so, including all blue bloods.

pUKe wouldn't have that luxury, if they relied on what KY produces they would be utterly screwed.

Not many of the blue bloods are located in the heart of a recruiting hotbed like IU is.

[HoosierAloha 29,890]

2 hours ago, Baltimore Hoosier said:

First of all, what's with the low blows? It seems to be your MO... No, I hate facts..... Come on man... 

To answer your question from the post, no, no one has consistently landed top Indiana talent based on your in-depth, year by year analysis. What I'm proposing is that maybe IU should be.  Maybe when the Langford's of the world are coming out of high school Indiana should want to be their destination. Guys like these are program changing talents. I think it starts with relationships within the state between Indiana coaches and individual high school coaches.

As far as whether or not Indiana is getting beat by other schools in the state in terms of recruiting, I would think that the school with the most resources and by far the most history and tradition would DOMINATE when it came to in-state recruiting battles. Yeah they have the slight edge when it comes to Top 50 players over the last decade, but is that good enough? 

It seems to be my MO?  Because I asked if we were still dealing in facts?  I laid all the facts in a post above for you but it appears you consistently move the goal post in an attempt to be a little correct.

I would like for IU to be able to pick the top instate players they want and leave the rest for someone else.  However, that's my little fantasy world and doesn't jive with reality.  Has there ever been a coach in the state of Indiana that landed every top instate target?  It's just not going to happen, especially in the age that we live in.  If IU has a player that is going to start and get the majority of the minutes then the recruit is most likely going somewhere else to get his playing time.  (Yogi in 2012, Jackson in 2013)  It's just a different era, kids can go to non blueblood schools and get just as much, if not more, TV time and exposure to get to the next level.  You also have coach, relative, handler relationships that have to deliver certain kids to certain programs.  Now, the state of Indiana is nowhere close to what Chicago is but that still exist.

Looking back on what IU has done or in your eyes failed to do over the last decade.  IU has landed 5 of 24 by your definition of kids IU should be landing.  4 of those 5 were top 21 recruits, not bad.  The only top recruit, Gordon, during that time, played at IU.  If you started dwindling it down to who IU was in either serious contention with or was targeting I'm sure it would look more like 5 of 12ish which is a really good percentage.  Also, IU, because of other connections, has been able to go out and land good talent elsewhere.

2009 - 35 Watford

2013 - 11 Vonleh, 53 Williams

2014 - 49 Johnson

2015 - 20 Bryant

2016 - 40 Davis

Overall, I don't think the problem the IU program has right now is recruiting.  IU seems to have turned a corner in recruiting kids, instate and out of state, that are high character kids.  Will that be enough for Crean to win games and keep him in Btown?  I'm not sure but a good 2017 class will go a long way in determining that, regardless of where the kid played high school basketball.

[Dalton26 16,891]

Good discussion fellas, but lets not make anything personal. 

[WayneFleekHoosier 46,747]

Both have made good points.

Do we wanna be UK, Arizona, Duke, Kansas, UCLA, Syracuse //or
Villanova, Virginia, Wisconsin, Butler.

We seem to try to mix both styles.


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[Uspshoosier 44,225]

Recruiting is a business of relationships. It’s about the right fit vs the brand name. Need creates opportunity which enhances development
@paulbiancardi


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[Baltimore Hoosier 986]

41 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

It seems to be my MO?  Because I asked if we were still dealing in facts?  I laid all the facts in a post above for you but it appears you consistently move the goal post in an attempt to be a little correct.

I would like for IU to be able to pick the top instate players they want and leave the rest for someone else.  However, that's my little fantasy world and doesn't jive with reality.  Has there ever been a coach in the state of Indiana that landed every top instate target?  It's just not going to happen, especially in the age that we live in.  If IU has a player that is going to start and get the majority of the minutes then the recruit is most likely going somewhere else to get his playing time.  (Yogi in 2012, Jackson in 2013)  It's just a different era, kids can go to non blueblood schools and get just as much, if not more, TV time and exposure to get to the next level.  You also have coach, relative, handler relationships that have to deliver certain kids to certain programs.  Now, the state of Indiana is nowhere close to what Chicago is but that still exist.

Looking back on what IU has done or in your eyes failed to do over the last decade.  IU has landed 5 of 24 by your definition of kids IU should be landing.  4 of those 5 were top 21 recruits, not bad.  The only top recruit, Gordon, during that time, played at IU.  If you started dwindling it down to who IU was in either serious contention with or was targeting I'm sure it would look more like 5 of 12ish which is a really good percentage.  Also, IU, because of other connections, has been able to go out and land good talent elsewhere.

2009 - 35 Watford

2013 - 11 Vonleh, 53 Williams

2014 - 49 Johnson

2015 - 20 Bryant

2016 - 40 Davis

Overall, I don't think the problem the IU program has right now is recruiting.  IU seems to have turned a corner in recruiting kids, instate and out of state, that are high character kids.  Will that be enough for Crean to win games and keep him in Btown?  I'm not sure but a good 2017 class will go a long way in determining that, regardless of where the kid played high school basketball.

I've never said, nor do I believe that Indiana would ever land EVERY top in-state recruit.. That just isn't rational. But some sort of consistency would be nice. Indiana hasn't gotten the top rated player from the state of Indiana (based on 247's composite) since 2007 (Gordon)... So not once in the Tom Crean era have the Hoosiers landed the #1 guy from their own state. You're ok with that??

[JSHoosier 19,568]

3 minutes ago, Baltimore Hoosier said:

I've never said, nor do I believe that Indiana would ever land EVERY top in-state recruit.. That just isn't rational. But some sort of consistency would be nice. Indiana hasn't gotten the top rated player from the state of Indiana (based on 247's composite) since 2007 (Gordon)... So not once in the Tom Crean era have the Hoosiers landed the #1 guy from their own state. You're ok with that??

We have gotten the Indiana Mr. Basketball twice in that time, Jordan Hulls and Cody Zeller.  I know that winner may not be the top in state player in 247 composite, but just throwing that out there.

[biteoftheapple 4,115]

Its ok if we can win 2 of 4 outright B1G titles. Yes, there is more to do, but that is where it begins.

[HoosierAloha 29,890]

I've never said, nor do I believe that Indiana would ever land EVERY top in-state recruit.. That just isn't rational. But some sort of consistency would be nice. Indiana hasn't gotten the top rated player from the state of Indiana (based on 247's composite) since 2007 (Gordon)... So not once in the Tom Crean era have the Hoosiers landed the #1 guy from their own state. You're ok with that??

Would I like IU to land the top instate player every year? Yes, that would be great but
1). Not realistic
2). Not every top instate players fits
3). Other factors are in play

Indiana Mr. Basketball
16 - Guy, is he okay to sit for a year/two
15 - Swan, TB fits better
14 - Lyles, no thanks
13 - Irvin, good player but got Troy
12 - Harris, wish we landed him
11 - Zeller
10 - Thomas, connections at O$U
09 - Hulls
08 - Zeller, wish we landed him
07 - Gordon

3/10 isn't too bad. Considering the circumstances that's pretty fantastic. 3/10 I'm good with not landing. 3/10 wish we would have landed them. If we weren't landing good to great out of state players that fit the system is be more upset we weren't landing the top instate talent.

[Stuhoo 75,564]

Some people are going to complain no matter how well things are going.

IU fans are people.

Some IU fans are never going to complain no matter how well things are going.

[BGleas 7,880]

4 hours ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Both have made good points.

Do we wanna be UK, Arizona, Duke, Kansas, UCLA, Syracuse //or
Villanova, Virginia, Wisconsin, Butler.

We seem to try to mix both styles.


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I'm good with not being UK, Duke, Arizona. While it's exciting, I don't love playing a lot in that top 10 space. I think you can build a sustainable, consistent winner with consistently recruiting well in the top 20-70 space. Those guys ranked 20-40 are often just a shade less talented than the top 10 guys, or just ranked a shade lower because of a size issue or something, but they usually stay 2-4 years. 

My issue with Crean is his classes are usually just one "headliner" in that 20-30 range. I'd love to see like every other year where we have two guys in that borderline 5/4 star range. Not asking for multiple top 10 guys a year, but some years where you land a Bryant and Yogi in the same class. 

[WayneFleekHoosier 46,747]

If we get Wilkes this year this conversation quiets, but not completely because of Scruggs, Williams, and Jackson. It would be a good result imo.

Then the focus goes to Langford. Rinse and Repeat. Until we get the pick of the litter from Indiana this argument will continue into eternity.


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[HoosierAloha 29,890]

If we get Wilkes this year this conversation quiets, but not completely because of Scruggs, Williams, and Jackson. It would be a good result imo.

Then the focus goes to Langford. Rinse and Repeat. Until we get the pick of the litter from Indiana this argument will continue into eternity.


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And the rebuttal will be, if we get Waters, that there's not much difference between the two. I would be concerned if IU wasn't getting out of state players to fill needs.

[WayneFleekHoosier 46,747]

And the rebuttal will be, if we get Waters, that there's not much difference between the two. I would be concerned if IU wasn't getting out of state players to fill needs.

Yep. That's my point. Wilkes plus a solid class pretty much quiets talk a bit.

Miss Wilkes and and get Justin Smith in his place. The talk starts blowing ear drums.




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