NBA Thread

[wirenuts 1,055]

Keep in mind I am not trying to discourage anyone from the conversation. I think it is fun to try to debate. I just don't think it is as cut and dried as some try to make it out to be.

Sent from my LG-H900 using BtownBanners mobile app

[mdn82 25,456]

I think the ringz argument is a bad argument, and personally I think LeBron is better than Jordan (as you all know lol), but that's beside the point. With Jordan you can go past the rings and point to a multitude of reasons to argue that he was better than LeBron. You can't do that with Kobe when you compare him to LeBron. 

Yeah man, I wouldn't argue Kobe. I am close to the point of not arguing for Wilt either. To me 1 and 2 is Jordan then Lebron. The greatest player to me should be that much better than his competition. Wilt had that. Jordan had that. Lebron has that. When they make rules for/against you, you are that good. The best players always make those around you better. They elevate the competition because they are that good. Hopefully Lebron stays in Cleveland the last few years of his career. Then we can have this discussion in a few years. To me the discussion of GOAT is a lot like MVP. Usually it is the best player on the best team. Debatable to who is the most important player to their team. Numbers aside because I take Jordan with those all day, awards matter, and titles matter when you are splitting hairs. Jordan has all three categories over Lebron. What Lebron gears up for or rests for he doesn't always win. Fun convo that probably won't end and will be there when the next great plays. But rarely do you see someone compare someone to Kobe. It's Jordan or Lebron for a reason. IMO


Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners mobile app

[mdn82 25,456]

How can anyone justify an argument on anyone being a better player than anyone else? The only thing you can really debate is who the best player of this era is. That is clearly LeBron. Jordan, bird, magic played in a different time, as did russell, Chamberlain, and Robertson. Its really kind of tough to debate who is better in this era. Kobe had shaq, who was a dominant force for a while in L.A. LeBron has had really good teams that he has played with. But consider this: what if Reggie Miller had played with Michael and the bulls? What if Michael didn't have scottie, rodman, etc in the latter half of the career? These are all variables that go through my head when I see debates like this. That's why I just don't try

 

Sent from my LG-H900 using BtownBanners mobile app

 

 

Scottie was there fairly early in Jordan's career. They had won multiple titles before Rodman got there. Not sure Kobe wins more without Shaq since it was early in his career. If Reggie played with Jordan I am extremely confident who is taking the last shot and who is taking a back seat to whom. I do look at Jordan's and Lebron's situations as similar when they came into the league. I do think their management has hurt Lebron throughout his career. The reason we remember some of Jordan's 2nd, 3rd, etc. options was because they won and how dominant those teams were. Much like the Celtics and Lakers of the 80s. It is splitting hairs and preference, but having lived through the 80s (childhood) to now I would prefer Jordan all day every day.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners mobile app

[Hoosierfan2017 19,887]

29 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

Yeah man, I wouldn't argue Kobe. I am close to the point of not arguing for Wilt either. To me 1 and 2 is Jordan then Lebron. The greatest player to me should be that much better than his competition. Wilt had that. Jordan had that. Lebron has that. When they make rules for/against you, you are that good. The best players always make those around you better. They elevate the competition because they are that good. Hopefully Lebron stays in Cleveland the last few years of his career. Then we can have this discussion in a few years. To me the discussion of GOAT is a lot like MVP. Usually it is the best player on the best team. Debatable to who is the most important player to their team. Numbers aside because I take Jordan with those all day, awards matter, and titles matter when you are splitting hairs. Jordan has all three categories over Lebron. What Lebron gears up for or rests for he doesn't always win. Fun convo that probably won't end and will be there when the next great plays. But rarely do you see someone compare someone to Kobe. It's Jordan or Lebron for a reason. IMO


Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners mobile app

Yeah I agree. To me the "5 is better than 3 so Kobe is better" comment by Jordan was just intellectually lazy and I expected better from such a great basketball mind like his. Like you said, between Jordan and LeBron MJ has much more going for him than just the 6 rings in a comparison. With Kobe the 2 extra rings are really all he has on LeBron. 

I know football isn't quite the same as basketball, but to me the Brady/Manning debate is an example of why you can't just use the rings argument to decide between two great players like MJ did today. 

[mdn82 25,456]

Yeah I agree. To me the "5 is better than 3 so Kobe is better" comment by Jordan was just intellectually lazy and I expected better from such a great basketball mind like his. Like you said, between Jordan and LeBron MJ has much more going for him than just the 6 rings in a comparison. With Kobe the 2 extra rings are really all he has on LeBron. 
I know football isn't quite the same as basketball, but to me the Brady/Manning debate is an example of why you can't just use the rings argument to decide between two great players like MJ did today. 

Agreed. I hate the Colts but very few can actually hold a justified argument toward Brady being the GOAT. When I was growing up it was Montana. Both really good QBs. Brady is great, but he most certainly cannot do what Manning did. IMO more props should be placed on Belicheck due to Brady much like Walsh in the 80s.


Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners mobile app

[WayneFleekHoosier 46,747]

I have to say, if I was drafting a team right now I'd go Kevin Durant then Lebron. Then it gets really tricky with the 3rd pick.

Kevin Durant is just incredible.


Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners

[mdn82 25,456]

I have to say, if I was drafting a team right now I'd go Kevin Durant then Lebron. Then it gets really tricky with the 3rd pick.

Kevin Durant is just incredible.


Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners

That is valid. I agree it isn't cut and dry and depends on preferences.


Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners mobile app

[HoosierAloha 29,890]

There are interesting thoughts in this discussion. Just to get it out of the way I would take Jordan all day everyday in almost every athletic or competitive event over LeBron.

Mdn touched on a good point and Fleek added to it. In Jordan's prime, would you take any player over MJ? I can't think of another player who would be close. In LeBron's prime, are there players you would take before him or who have had better seasons? I can think of a few that would be close.

Just a thought.

[goonaha 2,972]

3 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:

There are interesting thoughts in this discussion. Just to get it out of the way I would take Jordan all day everyday in almost every athletic or competitive event over LeBron.

Mdn touched on a good point and Fleek added to it. In Jordan's prime, would you take any player over MJ? I can't think of another player who would be close. In LeBron's prime, are there players you would take before him or who have had better seasons? I can think of a few that would be close.

Just a thought.

I disagree with literally everything you said lol. Taking Jordan all day everyday in almost every athletic or competitive event is ludicrous. Jordan couldn't cut it in minor league baseball. LeBron was wanted by every major college football program. He would be a Pro Bowl caliber NFL player if he had gone that route, no doubt in my mind. Magic, Barkley, Hakeem, David Robinson, and Karl Malone all won MVP's during MJ's prime, so I am very confused by your statement of "players you would take before him or who have had better seasons." Furthermore, LeBron should have already matched MJ's MVP counts and would have had 5 MVP's in a row had it not been for the robbery that was the Derrick Rose MVP season. The only reason you wouldn't take him now is because of age compared to Durant. 

[WayneFleekHoosier 46,747]

FWIW I like Lebron (I think he's a good dude who has handled his fame incredibly given its stature) and even root for him but to me, the last couple years KD is the most talented player in the league. I'm in awe when I watch him play. He's virtually unstoppable on offense. LeBron is similar in that he can drive to the rim at will.

Let me put it this way. KD and LeBron would make my ALL Time starting 5. Titles be damned, no one can do what KD (I'm not even a fan/Actually kind of dislike him) does.

Magic
MJ
KD
LeBron
Shaq


Sent from my iPad using BtownBanners

[Hoosierfan2017 19,887]

LeBron doesn't have 10 more years in him like some of these younger cats do so I wouldn't pick him to start a team going forward either. There's a lot of young talent in the NBA right now and I'm excited to see it develop. 

Also screw Kevin Durant lol. 

[wirenuts 1,055]

Scottie was there fairly early in Jordan's career. They had won multiple titles before Rodman got there. Not sure Kobe wins more without Shaq since it was early in his career. If Reggie played with Jordan I am extremely confident who is taking the last shot and who is taking a back seat to whom. I do look at Jordan's and Lebron's situations as similar when they came into the league. I do think their management has hurt Lebron throughout his career. The reason we remember some of Jordan's 2nd, 3rd, etc. options was because they won and how dominant those teams were. Much like the Celtics and Lakers of the 80s. It is splitting hairs and preference, but having lived through the 80s (childhood) to now I would prefer Jordan all day every day.
 
 
Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners mobile app

Granted Miller would have been the beta to Jordan's alpha in that scenario. Im not debating that at all. My point was that if Miller had played on those bulls teams and won that many championships, wouldn't that make him higher on all of the greatest players list? Barkley was a dominant player that had the bad luck of not so great teams (see manning, peyton). I think it has to be noted who LeBron has played with in his career, much like Jordan has. For the record, in the 80s and 90s, Jordan in my opinion was the best player in the league. But, the most dominant player in NBA history as an individual has to be wilt chamberlain, once again, in my opinion. There are too many different variables when deciding the best player. It can't possibly be done without it just being an opinion. For me, I think more credit should be given to Jerry West and Bob cousy. Not saying they belong in the best ever, but they were certainly dominant in their own way. As for lebron, he's a forward...I have trouble comparing him to guards.

Sent from my LG-H900 using BtownBanners mobile app

[wirenuts 1,055]

To expand on that a little, magic Johnson probably could have averaged as many points per game as Michael Jordan if that is what his coach wanted him to do. Magic was a playmaker, with a really high assist average. I think that the coach's perception of how he wanted to use that player makes a lot of that players history too

Sent from my LG-H900 using BtownBanners mobile app

[Hoosierfan2017 19,887]

3 minutes ago, wirenuts said:

To expand on that a little, magic Johnson probably could have averaged as many points per game as Michael Jordan if that is what his coach wanted him to do. Magic was a playmaker, with a really high assist average. I think that the coach's perception of how he wanted to use that player makes a lot of that players history too

Sent from my LG-H900 using BtownBanners mobile app
 

Also Magic's career got cut short so it's harder to judge. Who knows where he would've ended up on the all-time lists had he played 5-6 more years. 

[wirenuts 1,055]

Also Magic's career got cut short so it's harder to judge. Who knows where he would've ended up on the all-time lists had he played 5-6 more years. 

Exactly.

Sent from my LG-H900 using BtownBanners mobile app

[HoosierAloha 29,890]

I disagree with literally everything you said lol. Taking Jordan all day everyday in almost every athletic or competitive event is ludicrous. Jordan couldn't cut it in minor league baseball. LeBron was wanted by every major college football program. He would be a Pro Bowl caliber NFL player if he had gone that route, no doubt in my mind. Magic, Barkley, Hakeem, David Robinson, and Karl Malone all won MVP's during MJ's prime, so I am very confused by your statement of "players you would take before him or who have had better seasons." Furthermore, LeBron should have already matched MJ's MVP counts and would have had 5 MVP's in a row had it not been for the robbery that was the Derrick Rose MVP season. The only reason you wouldn't take him now is because of age compared to Durant. 

He would be...? Because he was great in high school? That's the same argument as LeBron should have the MVP every year because he's the best not because he had the best season. All those players were great and HOF's but they had better seasons than Jordan in his prime? Not close. Durant has done it for a few years, Westbrook has had dominant regular seasons, Steph has had MVP worthy seasons with titles, Khawai Leonard is right there and will surpass LJ soon, Kobe was up there for awhile.

I can see why some view LeBron the way they do. I view Jordan in the same light. If LeBron had Jordan's attitude and mental game he would be far and away the best player. If Jordan had LeBron's physical game he'd be far and away the best player. I think the difference is Jordan's physical ability is better than LeBron's mental game. (Both players weaker area).

[wirenuts 1,055]

Question: if you had to pick between LeBron James before 30 or Larry Bird before 30, who would you pick? And feel free to look at stats before answering

Sent from my LG-H900 using BtownBanners mobile app

[waitingon6 167]

To be considered the GOAT you also had to do it at both ends of the court. In my view, that eliminates a lot of great players.

Sent from my SM-G900V using BtownBanners mobile app

[Hoosierfan2017 19,887]

This is sort of off topic, but the MVP talk made me curious. To me it seems like the MVP usually goes to the best player on the best team. But, in the past 20 years the MVP won the championship only 6 times. Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, LeBron twice, and Curry. 

Idk, I just found that interesting lol. 

[mdn82 25,456]

To expand on that a little, magic Johnson probably could have averaged as many points per game as Michael Jordan if that is what his coach wanted him to do. Magic was a playmaker, with a really high assist average. I think that the coach's perception of how he wanted to use that player makes a lot of that players history too

Sent from my LG-H900 using BtownBanners mobile app

He would have? His shot was not good. He did his damage in fast break or in the post. He could have averaged more, but no way he scores as much as the scorers in the 80s or 90s. Not even a Jordan thing. Look, I agree every player can pad their stats. Or do things differently for perception. But ultimately if Magic is going out just to score he turns into Allen Iverson. Low average. Maybe a year or two efficient and good, but lesser player imo. Part of what made Magic was his vision. Same as Lebron. His vision is as good as Jason Kidd in a Forward's body. Whenever this conversation comes up which is frequent. It's all personal preference to what a perfect player is to the individual. I prefer a player that does it at both ends of the floor day in day out. That is why I prefer Jordan. Take away the MVP's if that makes everyone feel better. How about 1st team defense? Jordan's accolades were more than every other player at both ends of the floor. Titles get brought up. There is literally no weakness in his resume. Lebron is pretty damn special, but if I got the chance to start a team with the 28 year old version of any player it is Jordan all day.


Sent from my iPhone using BtownBanners mobile app