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Old Friend

Archie and Progress

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I've been watching old games too, and what jumps out at me is that even with a 45 second shot clock, we still scored in the 70's and 80's pretty often. Whereas today, with a 30 second clock, we struggle to make it out of the 50's. 

Odd right? And 30 seconds is a long time. But our offense is so slow with no movement. It’s boring and ineffective.


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24 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:


Odd right? And 30 seconds is a long time. But our offense is so slow with no movement. It’s boring and ineffective.


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Knight's teams looked so smooth and fluid. There wasn't a ton of pointless dribbling or guys putting their heads down and trying to drive into multiple defenders. They usually didn't need the full 45 seconds to get a good look, because they moved and set good screens to get guys open. 

 

Archie Miller's offense looks like five athletes playing in quicksand. 

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Knight's teams looked so smooth and fluid. There wasn't a ton of pointless dribbling or guys putting their heads down and trying to drive into multiple defenders. They usually didn't need the full 45 seconds to get a good look, because they moved and set good screens to get guys open. 
 
Archie Miller's offense looks like five athletes playing in quicksand. 

If Archie changes the offense, success would be way easier to come by. But his offense(unless you’re Iowa) is incredibly easy to defend. Especially since he just sits two dudes on the block with no driving lanes. You can’t even get drive and kicks for 3’s. It’s drive to the free throw line, pass and try again. Defenders on the wing don’t even have to go off their man too far because the ball handler isn’t too far away from the guy on the wing.


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Who would have guessed this would turn into a bash Archie thread. Didn’t we have a particular thread for that...?


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I disagree. The OP posted stats on progress so only natural to agree where one sees it and point out where there hasn’t been enough


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Here's what makes me smile.  If we go back and look, how many of the same posters b*tching now used Chris Beard as an example of "WHO WE COULD HAVE HAD!!!!!!" or who they want?   It was a lot.  Couple guys on here who can't seem to whine enough nor see any positives regardless of where they look, but here's the facts, boys.   https://kenpom.com/index.php?s=RankAdjDE  Indiana was better than or about equal to Texas Tech in about every category, including record.  That "next shiny thing" isn't any shinier than Archie except for one good run a year ago. Indiana will have plenty of those given time.
"There aren't many positives so far."   Well, not if you aren't looking for them.  Recruiting is an obvious one, and to not acknowledge it erases any credibility at all.  Only 13 teams in the country had more quad 1 wins than Indiana had this season and there are 353 D1 teams.  In that category, Indiana was better than 96.4% of the country.   Indiana was 26th in defensive efficiency (see above).  Remember when Indiana was known for its defense?  We sure won a lot of games then.   Indiana was still 65th in offensive efficiency.  Great?   No.  A horrific failure?  No.  
There hasn't been enough positive if you're only concerned about results, and that's cool.  Seriously.  I get that.   I simply said I am taking a different approach and I see (because of that approach) a whole lot more positives than some.  A few things have to happen in my opinion.  One is to allow Archie's players to "get old" so Indiana can "stay old."   Another was to have Green graduate.  He said himself in his senior speech he didn't want to learn, and he hijacked at least 5 possessions every game.  With so many close games, we can't have that.  Green sure was fun when he was "on," but when he wasn't and still tried to be?  Yuck.   Another is to allow a couple of kids (Phinisee, Hunter, and Thompson in particular) to play healthy and play together.  I see a whole lot of positives in those kids, but they've lost so much time to injury, I understand why others may not.  
Finally, what exactly has or hasn't Archie done which you as a coach would do differently given exactly the same circumstances?  No cop out "I'm not paid millions of dollars..." answers.   He doesn't make that money to please you.  He's paid to represent IU and to win.  The speed at which he does the latter is not in his contract, nor is pleasing complainers on a message board.  So....what has his coaching truly cost Indiana so far?  Last season?  "We'd better make the NCAA tournament or else!"  Well....we did.  And now it's on to the next thing to b*tch about.   Sincerely interested in what you believe Archie has cost Indiana, especially this past season.

It truly is nice to see you so on board as you were anything but when it came to Crean and for the most part for good reason.

What he has cost me and a lot of fans is lack of enjoyment. We have lost 1/3 of all games he’s coached by double digits.

It hasn’t been 1 season or 2 but all 3 seasons. there is something majorly wrong there for his team to not get off the bus or out of their dorm room 1/3 of the time.

I had plans as I usually do to travel to Champagne, Ann Arbor, West Lafayette, Bloomington etc to see them play and after doing so the last 2 years and getting massacred each time I said to hell with it.

It’s one thing to go down with a fight and it is another to lay down and die and that has been an on-going theme since he stepped foot in Bloomington


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33 minutes ago, MikeRoberts said:


It truly is nice to see you so on board as you were anything but when it came to Crean and for the most part for good reason.

What he has cost me and a lot of fans is lack of enjoyment. We have lost 1/3 of all games he’s coached by double digits.

It hasn’t been 1 season or 2 but all 3 seasons. there is something majorly wrong there for his team to not get off the bus or out of their dorm room 1/3 of the time.

I had plans as I usually do to travel to Champagne, Ann Arbor, West Lafayette, Bloomington etc to see them play and after doing so the last 2 years and getting massacred each time I said to hell with it.

It’s one thing to go down with a fight and it is another to lay down and die and that has been an on-going theme since he stepped foot in Bloomington


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I absolutely agree with you, but again, I look at it and ask myself if the reason is/was Archie or the players.   Last season, when Romeo was here I heard more stories about awful chemistry than anything positive.   I think it was better this season, but there were times I saw Archie look absolutely exasperated on the sidelines, and I believe as the filter eliminates the warts, things will continue to get better.

I have a good friend in local Indianapolis media, also an IU guy and no...it's not Dakich.  He made a point to me I thought was great (relative to Crean v Miller).  He said Crean recruited with a shotgun, Miller recruits with a rifle.   Crean's approach wasn't focused and he couldn't win consistently because he didn't ever try to build teams...he just fired off scholarship offers, and the pieces fell in place a couple of times, followed by bad finishes.

Archie hasn't yet seen the top, but I see what he's trying to do and I believe he will be more consistent with the "get old and stay old" approach.  Next season is really the first season I think will really show the affects of that, and if he doesn't have good seasons next year and the following?  His seat SHOULD be hot.  I'm obviously not making any promises, but I do like the plan..and I think there IS a plan.  I don't think Crean ever had one, and I also think if you gave Tom Crean truth serum, he'd tell you he's surprised he ever won a conference title.   "Holy crap..we WON!"

I also like that he (Archie)  seems to learn and adapt.  Crean never did.   Archie's teams have bought into defense.  They started throwing the ball inside a lot more later this season, and seeing results because of it.  We got better shots across the board and MADE more later in the year.  It's little things like that.   We were absolutely horrid blitzing ball screens with big guys against Michigan.  So...we quit doing it after that.  An adjustment.  That's the kind of thing I see and it gives me encouragement.

We were awful shooting the ball.  Nothing Archie can do about that except keep working on it; and I know they did every day.  So he now has shooters coming.  Indiana GOT good shots much of the time (sometimes not....I know), and no offense gets layups every possession.  I see a tougher and more consistent brand under Miller than I did under Crean, and Archie still had three consecutive top 2 finishes in the A-10.  He knows what he's doing and he's adapting to Indiana.....I think, anyway.

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Do you really think this way?
It is impossible to counter these type of bootstrapped over-broad broadsides. Your conclusions fly in the face of evidence, logic, and nuance.
I think continuing to debate this with you is the IUBB assessment equivalent of “wrestling with a pig”; you both will get really dirty and only the pig will like it.
 
 


Stuhoo: Loaded Chicken Sandwich, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.


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Here's what makes me smile.  If we go back and look, how many of the same posters b*tching now used Chris Beard as an example of "WHO WE COULD HAVE HAD!!!!!!" or who they want?   It was a lot.  Couple guys on here who can't seem to whine enough nor see any positives regardless of where they look, but here's the facts, boys.   https://kenpom.com/index.php?s=RankAdjDE  Indiana was better than or about equal to Texas Tech in about every category, including record.  That "next shiny thing" isn't any shinier than Archie except for one good run a year ago. Indiana will have plenty of those given time.
"There aren't many positives so far."   Well, not if you aren't looking for them.  Recruiting is an obvious one, and to not acknowledge it erases any credibility at all.  Only 13 teams in the country had more quad 1 wins than Indiana had this season and there are 353 D1 teams.  In that category, Indiana was better than 96.4% of the country.   Indiana was 26th in defensive efficiency (see above).  Remember when Indiana was known for its defense?  We sure won a lot of games then.   Indiana was still 65th in offensive efficiency.  Great?   No.  A horrific failure?  No.  
There hasn't been enough positive if you're only concerned about results, and that's cool.  Seriously.  I get that.   I simply said I am taking a different approach and I see (because of that approach) a whole lot more positives than some.  A few things have to happen in my opinion.  One is to allow Archie's players to "get old" so Indiana can "stay old."   Another was to have Green graduate.  He said himself in his senior speech he didn't want to learn, and he hijacked at least 5 possessions every game.  With so many close games, we can't have that.  Green sure was fun when he was "on," but when he wasn't and still tried to be?  Yuck.   Another is to allow a couple of kids (Phinisee, Hunter, and Thompson in particular) to play healthy and play together.  I see a whole lot of positives in those kids, but they've lost so much time to injury, I understand why others may not.  
Finally, what exactly has or hasn't Archie done which you as a coach would do differently given exactly the same circumstances?  No cop out "I'm not paid millions of dollars..." answers.   He doesn't make that money to please you.  He's paid to represent IU and to win.  The speed at which he does the latter is not in his contract, nor is pleasing complainers on a message board.  So....what has his coaching truly cost Indiana so far?  Last season?  "We'd better make the NCAA tournament or else!"  Well....we did.  And now it's on to the next thing to b*tch about.   Sincerely interested in what you believe Archie has cost Indiana, especially this past season.

Recruiting has been alright. TJD lived up to the hype. Romeo was good. Rob hasn’t lived up to the hype. Anderson was a miss. Franklin played okay seems to have potential to be a good backup. The 2020 class is his best one. I think Lander and Leal will be our best guards next season(apparently that’s bad positivity. Not allowed). Defense wasn’t bad. The problem people have is that Archie won’t consistently make adjustments. Like the hedging and giving up 3’s that hurt us so often. I really don’t care that we were better than “96.4%” of the country. We finished 11th in the Big Ten. And I know you like to bring up Green to blame but yet you never bring up Smith and Durham or Archie himself.
Now what would I do differently if I were Archie? Well the biggest thing would be taking whatever he’s trying on offense and just tries it in the trash. The main play we run is a complete joke and a disgrace to basketball. Play a 4 out 1 in, actually give a guy like Smith room to make cuts and slashes into the paint. Give room for pick n rolls with Lander/Rob and TJD. Give room for drive and kicks. The moving out of the 3 point line should have given us more room yet the floor got even smaller for ya because of the offense we ran. We still have issues with guys just standing around, lazy passes, lazy pick n rolls, bad shooting etc. Still have problems of Archie not holding guys accountable and just running his mouth and never actually making any changes. There are still too many negatives and people see that. They may seem little, but it is hurting the success of the program.


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Joe, I feel like you had a stretch there where you were growing on me and I was actually enjoying some of your posts. Now, you have reverted back to what I guess is the real joe or Loaded chicken Sandwich or Xavier or whoever you are. Such a shame.  

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Joe, I feel like you had a stretch there where you were growing on me and I was actually enjoying some of your posts. Now, you have reverted back to what I guess is the real joe or Loaded chicken Sandwich or Xavier or whoever you are. Such a shame.  

My feeling on Archie won’t change until I see him make necessary changes. I don’t think he was a good hire. Crean was all offense, no defense and people complained about defense and we overreacted and went all defense, no offense. I see that as a problem. Archie doesn’t want to seem to fix it.


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And that's a perfectly OK opinion to have but do you need to tell us that in nearly every post and in nearly every thread?  Geez, the horse is dead why do you insist on continuing to beat it?  You do offer positive things to btb but your obsession over Archie and the need to tell us over and over and over that you don't like his coaching is a bit overboard.

Old Friend responded to me and quoted what I said. So I responded to his questions.


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2 hours ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:


Recruiting has been alright. TJD lived up to the hype. Romeo was good. Rob hasn’t lived up to the hype. Anderson was a miss. Franklin played okay seems to have potential to be a good backup. The 2020 class is his best one. I think Lander and Leal will be our best guards next season(apparently that’s bad positivity. Not allowed). Defense wasn’t bad. The problem people have is that Archie won’t consistently make adjustments. Like the hedging and giving up 3’s that hurt us so often. I really don’t care that we were better than “96.4%” of the country. We finished 11th in the Big Ten. And I know you like to bring up Green to blame but yet you never bring up Smith and Durham or Archie himself.
Now what would I do differently if I were Archie? Well the biggest thing would be taking whatever he’s trying on offense and just tries it in the trash. The main play we run is a complete joke and a disgrace to basketball. Play a 4 out 1 in, actually give a guy like Smith room to make cuts and slashes into the paint. Give room for pick n rolls with Lander/Rob and TJD. Give room for drive and kicks. The moving out of the 3 point line should have given us more room yet the floor got even smaller for ya because of the offense we ran. We still have issues with guys just standing around, lazy passes, lazy pick n rolls, bad shooting etc. Still have problems of Archie not holding guys accountable and just running his mouth and never actually making any changes. There are still too many negatives and people see that. They may seem little, but it is hurting the success of the program.


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I feel that there were definitely issues on offense, like many on here have already stated. However, I don't believe it was a problem with what was being ran. We missed a "metric S**t TON" of 3s and bunnies under the basket. Many of those 3s were wiiiiidddde open, good looks. So how would running a 4 out 1 in offensive scheme work with the rosters that we have had the last couple of years, when we couldn't hit the wide open opportunities we had? Even if you ran the 4 out 1 in, the defense is still going to pack the paint because they know that you can't hit the shot to begin with (We saw many teams pack the post and dare us to keep shooting outside this season, i.e. PUke), so now you have 4 defenders in the post (assuming the opposing defense still guards the ball) and even less room to move in the post, no lanes to drive, no spacing for a pick & roll/pop. Everything will change with the addition of "shooters" injected into the line up, you hit a 3, the seas begin to part then TJD and Smith can go nuts in the post, there was even evidence of that at times this season, i.e. Hunter started hitting at a decent clip, the few games that DG went nuts.

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I feel that there were definitely issues on offense, like many on here have already stated. However, I don't believe it was a problem with what was being ran. We missed a "metric S**t TON" of 3s and bunnies under the basket. Many of those 3s were wiiiiidddde open, good looks. So how would running a 4 out 1 in offensive scheme work with the rosters that we have had the last couple of years, when we couldn't hit the wide open opportunities we had? Even if you ran the 4 out 1 in, the defense is still going to pack the paint because they know that you can't hit the shot to begin with (We saw many teams pack the post and dare us to keep shooting outside this season, i.e. PUke), so now you have 4 defenders in the post (assuming the opposing defense still guards the ball) and even less room to move in the post, no lanes to drive, no spacing for a pick & roll/pop. Everything will change with the addition of "shooters" injected into the line up, you hit a 3, the seas begin to part then TJD and Smith can go nuts in the post, there was even evidence of that at times this season, i.e. Hunter started hitting at a decent clip, the few games that DG went nuts.

Well I’ve posted on here before how the offense hurts itself. But I guess I’ll post it again.



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Just now, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:


Well I’ve posted on here before how the offense hurts itself. But I guess I’ll post it again.



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I've seen what you posted previously about lanes being cut off by other offensive players. But again, how is a 4 out 1 in going to help anything when our previous rosters couldn't hit the wide side of a barn from 3? The defenses are just going to sag off their man packing the paint. In other words, replace the offensive player blocking a lane with 3 defensive players because they are daring us to shoot over them, either way the paint is full. I still believe what you mention as the issue, is more of an issue with the line up. In order to run a 2 big line up, one of said bigs has to be able to shoot from outside. Brunk is not one of those bigs. I think TJD could and should probably work on that this summer.

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I've seen what you posted previously about lanes being cut off by other offensive players. But again, how is a 4 out 1 in going to help anything when our previous rosters couldn't hit the wide side of a barn from 3? The defenses are just going to sag off their man packing the paint. In other words, replace the offensive player blocking a lane with 3 defensive players because they are daring us to shoot over them, either way the paint is full. I still believe what you mention as the issue, is more of an issue with the line up. In order to run a 2 big line up, one of said bigs has to be able to shoot from outside. Brunk is not one of those bigs. I think TJD could and should probably work on that this summer.

It isn’t for the 3pt shot. It’s for the driving lanes and pick and roll. It also didn’t help that we had just awful lineups in too often. Brunk and TJD should have never seen the floor together. We didn’t have good 3pt shooters, but could get inside. Phinisee isn’t great at getting past his man, but even when he did he was just running into Brunk and his defender. Just moving that guy out of the way helps. One lineup I don’t think we saw was Phinisee, Green, Durham, Race and TJD. Which would have likely been our best shooting 5. Though Hunter can play the 4 in college yet Archie never even tried it for whatever reason. Archie’s offense is based of the pick and roll and it’s pretty much ruined with his scheme. Maybe that’ll change next season which would be a huge help because Lander is a PG than Phinisee and more athletic. And our guys might actually be able to hit some shots if the are open because defenders would actually have to suck in because there wouldn’t be extra defenders in the paint. It’d also help Smith as he’d have more room to slash from the wing, whereas this past season there were always two bigs in the paint. The offense we run now probably would have worked back in the 70’s and 80’s. Nowadays, especially with a deeper 3pt line(meaning more room), you want to space people out. Not cluster them in.


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27 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:


It isn’t for the 3pt shot. It’s for the driving lanes and pick and roll. It also didn’t help that we had just awful lineups in too often. Brunk and TJD should have never seen the floor together. We didn’t have good 3pt shooters, but could get inside. Phinisee isn’t great at getting past his man, but even when he did he was just running into Brunk and his defender. Just moving that guy out of the way helps. One lineup I don’t think we saw was Phinisee, Green, Durham, Race and TJD. Which would have likely been our best shooting 5. Though Hunter can play the 4 in college yet Archie never even tried it for whatever reason. Archie’s offense is based of the pick and roll and it’s pretty much ruined with his scheme. Maybe that’ll change next season which would be a huge help because Lander is a PG than Phinisee and more athletic. And our guys might actually be able to hit some shots if the are open because defenders would actually have to suck in because there wouldn’t be extra defenders in the paint. It’d also help Smith as he’d have more room to slash from the wing, whereas this past season there were always two bigs in the paint. The offense we run now probably would have worked back in the 70’s and 80’s. Nowadays, especially with a deeper 3pt line(meaning more room), you want to space people out. Not cluster them in.


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I don't think you are getting what I am saying. We had open 3 point attempts all season long and missed tons. So, that leads to the other team sagging off of our perimeter players cause they knew we were not going to hit them. In turn they packed the paint, causing our bigs more trouble inside with a crowded lane that is already being crowded by playing 2 bigs or 1 big and 1 slasher (JS). I am speculating that the offense that was ran was to try and compensate for the lack of 3 point shooting and lack of a perimeter big. Have 2 Bigs down low to try and power through the defense, whose sole focus is now defending the paint, and for put backs.

The purpose of a 4 out 1 in approach is to open the lane, however, this approach will not work if you cannot hit 3s effectively, because the defense doesn't have to guard the perimeter. They can sag into the lane and crowd the lane for the slasher or big. I believe the reason that we missed so many bunnies this season, wasn't just because we had too many guys on the block it was because of the defense sagging off the perimeter helping against the post. Too much resistance for the bigs to finish effectively. Until IU solves the perimeter game, there is nothing, no set half court offense that will solve the issue. Unless we maintain the up tempo offense, that doesn't allow the defense to get set. We have to become successful from behind the arc to make defenses stay with their guy to open the post.

To respond to some other things in your post, there would be no reason to put Hunter at the 4 this past year. Yes, he can play with his back to the basket, but he just come off of what could have been a career ending condition, playing as a "freshman" in the B1G. Why would you put him down low, with the uncertainty of another clot or whatever his condition was? Maybe it was the coach watching out for the health of his player, making sure that his condition didn't return due to the rough nature of post play B1G basketball? IDK, but it might be a reason, just speculating. I truly believe Hunter is very lucky to still be playing basketball at this point and wish him all of the success to come. Phinese played all year with what is sounding like a sports hernia, which would account for some of the lack of explosiveness. That s**t hurts, I've had one in basketball and it shut me down. So if this is the case, props to Rob for being able to push through that.

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