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Brass Cannon

Negativity Thread

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The Narrative around Miller after his elite 8 appearance was that he was a coach to watch but nobody seriously considered him as it was the only accomplishment he had to that point. He then followed that season up with a great coaching job and a second place finish. He then won two more tournament games and almost won a third.

He then followed those two years up with consecutive league titles. He was widely considered the hottest young coach on the market along with Chris Mack. 

I strongly disagree with this assertion that the elite 8 is the reason he was hired or sought after. It's not even close to the truth. 

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The Narrative around Miller after his elite 8 appearance was that he was a coach to watch but nobody seriously considered him as it was the only accomplishment he had to that point. He then followed that season up with a great coaching job and a second place finish. He then won two more tournament games and almost won a third.
He then followed those two years up with consecutive league titles. He was widely considered the hottest young coach on the market along with Chris Mack. 
I strongly disagree with this assertion that the elite 8 is the reason he was hired or sought after. It's not even close to the truth. 
I have been clear on my position in regards to Archie but I must say you are absolutely correct. He had accomplished quite enough to be considered a hot commodity. Problem is that means diddly poo to me if you can't be successful at the next step up which he has not been.

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Just now, lillurk said:

I didn’t want Cronin at IU but I think his track record at Cincinnati certainly indicates he could be successful at a program a level up. I don’t think UCLA is a great fit but I’m curious how he’ll do.

I was just saying what has he really done to be considered at UCLA. I feel like they are kind of like us these days. Used to be great but just another program these days. 

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3 minutes ago, rcs29 said:

I have been clear on my position in regards to Archie but I must say you are absolutely correct. He had accomplished quite enough to be considered a hot commodity. Problem is that means diddly poo to me if you can't be successful at the next step up which he has not been.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk
 

Agreed. He had done more than enough to be considered for the job.

But it means nothing at this point because we are three years in and he hasn't figure it out. Hope he does. 

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39 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

With Crean and Archie though taking away one season leaves looking exactly like what we have seen them to be. Average and nothing special. 
 

Sampson had made 13 of the previous 14 tourneys. That’s the key to success consistently make the tourney and be somewhere where you can get the players you want. 

Sampson was also 51? when we hired him with, what, 20+ years head coaching experience? Archie was 38 w/ only 6 years head coaching experience. Not exactly a similar sample size to take the biggest accomplishment away from. IUc2016 covered Archie's track record well already and it passes the "consistently make the tournament" test while also adding some league titles. When you're talking about a young coach like that, you can't just cherry pick his best season and get rid of it. 

And for the record, I am answering his/her question. If that season ends in the first round instead of the elite 8, is he considered for the IU job? Likely not, and that applies for most any big time job he was mentioned with. I'm just saying its kind of ridiculous to throw that season out. 

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1 hour ago, Brass Cannon said:

To me the last person we hired looking like a serious team was Sampson. 
 

Rather than firing him wish we had supported him and maybe made him consider character when recruiting. 

Sampson would've been great if we had kept him. The violations he committed were extremely minor compared to what coaches get away with now. He was making phone calls while coaches were shuffling around duffle bags full of cash. The recruits he was bringing in had character problems, but the university could've stepped in and told him to stop. Crean wasn't exactly bringing in choir boys and they didn't fire him for it.. IU completely overreacted and we've felt the consequences ever since. It was like the university couldn't wait to throw him under the bus to prove to the world how 'pure' and 'good' IU athletics was. 

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22 minutes ago, NashvilleHoosier said:

Sampson was also 51? when we hired him with, what, 20+ years head coaching experience? Archie was 38 w/ only 6 years head coaching experience. Not exactly a similar sample size to take the biggest accomplishment away from. IUc2016 covered Archie's track record well already and it passes the "consistently make the tournament" test while also adding some league titles. When you're talking about a young coach like that, you can't just cherry pick his best season and get rid of it. 

And for the record, I am answering his/her question. If that season ends in the first round instead of the elite 8, is he considered for the IU job? Likely not, and that applies for most any big time job he was mentioned with. I'm just saying its kind of ridiculous to throw that season out. 

I appreciate the discussion. I never said throw the season out, though. You criticized the hypothetical even though you thought it through and concluded one layup mattered as to whether he would be a candidate, so I’m not sure it’s as bad as you suggested ;) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

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25 minutes ago, NashvilleHoosier said:

Sampson was also 51? when we hired him with, what, 20+ years head coaching experience? Archie was 38 w/ only 6 years head coaching experience. Not exactly a similar sample size to take the biggest accomplishment away from. IUc2016 covered Archie's track record well already and it passes the "consistently make the tournament" test while also adding some league titles. When you're talking about a young coach like that, you can't just cherry pick his best season and get rid of it. 

And for the record, I am answering his/her question. If that season ends in the first round instead of the elite 8, is he considered for the IU job? Likely not, and that applies for most any big time job he was mentioned with. I'm just saying its kind of ridiculous to throw that season out. 

Maybe we should hire people with large sample sizes. 

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24 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Sampson would've been great if we had kept him. The violations he committed were extremely minor compared to what coaches get away with now. He was making phone calls while coaches were shuffling around duffle bags full of cash. The recruits he was bringing in had character problems, but the university could've stepped in and told him to stop. Crean wasn't exactly bringing in choir boys and they didn't fire him for it.. IU completely overreacted and we've felt the consequences ever since. 

This. Our program was set back more than just the first three years of the Crea era becaue of the overreaction to the Sampson issues. We are still feeling the effects and remains to be seen if we ever get out of it.

The administration dealt with the Bob Knight problems and the Sampson problems all in one decade. They have gone too far in making sure that all never happens again even though the fans couldn't care less honestly. 

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9 minutes ago, lillurk said:

I appreciate the discussion. I never said throw the season out, though. You criticized the hypothetical even though you thought it through and concluded one layup mattered as to whether he would be a candidate, so I’m not sure it’s as bad as you suggested ;) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

I do as well. And that's fine. Implying that you're trying to throw out the season altogether was strong, my bad. But when you say what if Aaron Craft's shot goes in, eliminating them in the first round, you are kind of throwing away the significance of that season. He did still win the game and two more after that. Yes if you eliminate it, his resume isn't as good and won't be as sought after. Just b/c I thought about it and concluded something doesn't mean its not still kind of a silly hypothetical to even consider. That's a lot of times how it works with hypotheticals. 

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But it's not the same. Archie won his league 4 straight seasons and went to the tourney all 4 seasons. Crean never finished higher than 4th in his league which wasn't the Big East then. 

Even before Marquette went to the Big East, they were in the C-USA which was actually good then.
The funny thing is that while in the C-USA, Marquette missed the tourney 4 out of 6 years. The two years they went they went out the first round and then made the Final Four the year before. And in those 6 years they finished 15-14(8-8), 15-14(9-7), 26-7(13-3), 27-6(14-2), 19-12(8-8) and 19-12(7-9) but as soon as they went to the Big East, he went to the NCAA tourney 3 straight seasons even after missing the two years prior and finished 20-11(10-6),24-10(10-6) and 25-10(11-7). Somehow immediately doing better in the Big East than the C-USA.


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1 hour ago, Chris007 said:

I was just saying what has he really done to be considered at UCLA. I feel like they are kind of like us these days. Used to be great but just another program these days. 

Keep in mind that Cronin was at least No. 4 on UCLA's depth chart. First, it was Cal. Then it was Barnes. Then it was Dixon. And only after they whiffed on those three, did they turn to Cronin. I'm not sure if that's the exact order -- and there may have been more they chased -- but those are the ones I remember. 

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44 minutes ago, LamarCheeks said:

Keep in mind that Cronin was at least No. 4 on UCLA's depth chart. First, it was Cal. Then it was Barnes. Then it was Dixon. And only after they whiffed on those three, did they turn to Cronin. I'm not sure if that's the exact order -- and there may have been more they chased -- but those are the ones I remember. 

yes I  do remember that now that you mention it. But really none of those besides Cal seem like home runs

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Just now, southernindianahoosier2 said:

Looks like Pat Shoulders is stepping down.... he, Fred Glass and McRobbie will all be gone soon enough.

https://www.hoosiertimes.com/herald_times_online/news/iu/longtime-iu-trustee-won-t-seek-reelection/article_2920219e-5259-11ea-aea4-cb922775d2ec.html


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THANK YOU JESUS!!!!!!!!!

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THANK YOU JESUS!!!!!!!!!

I'm as depressed about our current situation as anyone, and I'm generally an optimistic guy.
But hearing that Shoulders may be hitting the road gives me hope we may finally get the right pieces in place to raise this program from the dead.

I literally came here for one response when I heard the news .


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