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mamasa

IUBB vs Arkansas 12/29 @ 6 pm BTN

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Then you were around like me when we were a great program. Been watching some replays of the early 90s teams. This current group and staff are an embarrassment to what was built before them.

Yes, I was. All the way back to the fifties, although I don't remember a whole lot about that time. This is a different time with different kids. Nothing that we did during the Knight years, great as they were, apply now. I just think that the criticism of the coach and the team crosses the line at times. The playing field is not level and I would rather be where we are than play in the mud for mercenaries who only want to punch their ticket to the next level. When we become that, I'll find something else to do.

I think to Alfords point the handling from the top down has been bad since even before Knight was fired. To cthomas I definitely agree it’s a different time. I was there during the last title run. I also got to witness Bracey Wright in person. Nothing could be further from RMK basketball than Mike Davis basketball. I was a person that screamed at the tv more than Gradman watching the day’s weather. Once the whole Sampson thing happened and we had Crean’s first team I got to the point where I just decided if I can’t support who is wearing the jersey I wouldn’t watch. I definitely get where you are coming from. That does not make me a better fan. I just react differently than some.


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I want to thank you for your levelheaded approach. I’d like to see more winning, but I totally agree with your last couple sentences. IU as a top “Public Ivy” university with student athletes is always number one; compromising any of that integrity just to win at sports is a dark road to go down. I heard someone mention Pitino here. I’d burn every single piece of IU gear I owned if that happened. We had two decades of dominance, not many schools can boast that, but  I just don’t think it will happen again like we hope. 
On the other extreme, I’d like to win but I don’t like the way the university overcompensates and ties the hands of coaches on every little thing, not to mention this AD search committee and yes-men and all that other bureaucracy that comes along with it. I want to like Archie, but I have serious reservations about him and the admins from the top on down. Time will tell, I suppose. 

The state of Indiana has enough solid high school basketball prospects that don’t require cash to fuel an elite IU basketball program. There were programs back in the day that were buying recruits or providing advantages on campus that didn’t allow for an even playing field. The difference was IU had an elite coach, one of the best to ever coach at any level or any sport. Can we get back to that? I’m not sure.

What we lack in this seasons team is toughness, smarts, and confidence. Those were the building blocks of Knight teams. Those are hallmarks of teams like Virginia, Texas Tech, and a few others. I have little doubt Archie doesn’t understand this but he’s obviously hasn’t gotten it across to his team, especially his upperclassmen “leaders.” That’s on him.

We’ll see how that plays out over the rest of this season and next season. We don’t have a bunch of scrubs (in terms of talent) but we don’t have the toughest and smartest to compete at a high level. They, staff and coaches, need to figure this out now as the Big Ten won’t be kind otherwise.


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5 minutes ago, Josh said:

It's not just those two options though.  There's another way.  This way isn't working.  It has turned plenty of people (me included) to find other things to do instead of invest in Indiama basketball.   

We need an X's and O's guy.  This one isn't one.

I don't doubt that we all want the same result. I think we can express those desires without being so angry at our coaches and team. Coach Miller, like him or not, is the only one with real skin in this game and he will succeed or he won't. Honestly, my life won't change much either way.

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7 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:



What we lack in this seasons team is toughness, smarts, and confidence. Those were the building blocks of Knight teams. Those are hallmarks of teams like Virginia, Texas Tech, and a few others.

I feel like Crean teams were the same way. He was way more a philosophical coach than an X’s and O’s guy...not sure what Archie is exactly.

Chris Beard at IU could be legendary. Unfortunately that will never, ever happen. 

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Just now, cthomas said:

I don't doubt that we all want the same result. I think we can express those desires without being so angry at our coaches and team. Coach Miller, like him or not, is the only one with real skin in this game and he will succeed or he won't. Honestly, my life won't change much either way.

I'm not as angry as you think.  I just want change.  

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2 minutes ago, cthomas said:

Honestly, my life won't change much either way.

I tell myself this every game. It’s every other nut job UL/UK fan here that acts like their lives depend on sports teams they have no real stake in. When I worked as a server and would wear something IU-related, people wanted to get into verbal and (once) physical fights with me. It’s ridiculous. 

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I said before the Arkansas game that I like this team and I like these kids. The game, as bad as it was at times, hasn't changed that. The rest of the season, no matter how it turns out, won't change that. I don't understand the win at all costs mentally that seems to take over the dialogue here. These kids are human beings who have chosen to represent IU and we are talking about them, and our coach, as if we'd rather have someone better. They want to win, and so do the kids on the other team. One is going to lose. Maybe I'm too old to have the passion over winning and losing that some do, but I care more about how we get there and the kids than the results at the end of the day. It's a bigger world and there are more important things than this.

What is it you like? If winning does not really matter what is it you expect from your college basketball program?

If the team decides being a blue blood does not matter and they are fine being middle of the road/occasional tournament team the money they have coming in now will dry up. Consider that we are paying blue blood or at least top 25 level $. We are not getting top 25 results.

If we decide we are fine not being at this level understand the $ will drop to match the result. My company is currently reevaluating our sponsorship with IU. The level of interest from our customers across the state for the IU product has rapidly declined. And yes we are a highly successful company (#1 in IN top 10 nationally).

IU does have to decide who they want to be. I would argue though that we can’t decide to just stay as we are because people and corporations that have been paying top 25 $ won’t continue to do that if the product does not match. So if top 25 $ gets top 75 results what happens if we drop to top 100 $?




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31 minutes ago, 8bucks said:


What is it you like? If winning does not really matter what is it you expect from your college basketball program?

If the team decides being a blue blood does not matter and they are fine being middle of the road/occasional tournament team the money they have coming in now will dry up. Consider that we are paying blue blood or at least top 25 level $. We are not getting top 25 results.

If we decide we are fine not being at this level understand the $ will drop to match the result. My company is currently reevaluating our sponsorship with IU. The level of interest from our customers across the state for the IU product has rapidly declined. And yes we are a highly successful company (#1 in IN top 10 nationally).

IU does have to decide who they want to be. I would argue though that we can’t decide to just stay as we are because people and corporations that have been paying top 25 $ won’t continue to do that if the product does not match. So if top 25 $ gets top 75 results what happens if we drop to top 100 $?




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I think I understand your frustration and that of others. I have been around for four national championships, although the first one is very vague. I like that most of the kids on our team seem like real STUDENT-athletes and not one semester kids passing through on their way to the NBA. We may never be what we once were. I thought after '76, '81, and '87 I would see a national championship every few years. Hasn't turned out that way. University priorities seem to have changed. The level of success on the court doesn't have to to determine whether or not I like our coaches or players. The way they represent the university I root for does and isn't just about wins and losses. I'm not saying you are wrong to feel the way you do. I'm just not in that place anyone.

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I think I understand your frustration and that of others. I have been around for four national championships, although the first one is very vague. I like that most of the kids on our team seem like real STUDENT-athletes and not one semester kids passing through on their way to the NBA. We may never be what we once were. I thought after '76, '81, and '87 I would see a national championship every few years. Hasn't turned out that way. University priorities seem to have changed. The level of success on the court doesn't have to to determine whether or not I like our coaches or players. The way they represent the university I root for does and isn't just about wins and losses. I'm not saying you are wrong to feel the way you do. I'm just not in that place anyone.

Well the coach gets paid to win and the players come here to win. And winning is the name of the game. Everything else is just because people should be decent people and be decent students. But if you come to Indiana, expect to be criticized(player or coach) if you aren’t winning or are consistently playing poorly.


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I'm not as angry as you think.  I just want change.  

I so want Miller to succeed, but he has been here long enough to see the characteristic trends of his teams. He said when he hired that he wanted this system that could beat anyone, anytime, with little time to prepare. To me, he was saying something to the effect that his teams would play his system so well that the opponent didn’t matter. Just not happening...

 

Defense is supposed to be our identity. Well, if we are hanging our hats on defense, there’s an awful lot of hats on the floor.

 

His teams have been consistently bad shooting teams, which makes the offense easy to defend. If we aren’t getting transition baskets, teams pack it in. I mean, it doesn’t take a brilliant coach to figure that game plan. Our strategy of getting to the line has limited success because we shoot free throws so poorly.

 

I think that because he has this mindset that his system is so airtight, he seems very resistant to make changes. He has said himself a number of times that they just have to get better at what they are already doing. This leads to long losing streaks because basically nothing changes. We also see the constant injuries. Why? How many times has he ever had his full compliment of players available?

 

So as much as many of us want him to succeed, these patterns continue to emerge with his teams: Bad defense. Poor shooting. Ineffective offense. Injuries. Inability to make effective adjustments. Unfortunately, we aren’t seeing many positive trends. The hope was this cupcake schedule would allow us to be playing our best basketball heading into to the B1G. Nothing I have seen indicates much has changed from last year.

 

 

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10 hours ago, cthomas said:

I think I understand your frustration and that of others. I have been around for four national championships, although the first one is very vague. I like that most of the kids on our team seem like real STUDENT-athletes and not one semester kids passing through on their way to the NBA. We may never be what we once were. I thought after '76, '81, and '87 I would see a national championship every few years. Hasn't turned out that way. University priorities seem to have changed. The level of success on the court doesn't have to to determine whether or not I like our coaches or players. The way they represent the university I root for does and isn't just about wins and losses. I'm not saying you are wrong to feel the way you do. I'm just not in that place anyone.

I get what you're saying but some of that just comes down to being decent people.  On it's own is good, but ultimately they're paid millions of dollars to win games; winning is the point of the game so they should absolutely be judged by wins and losses.

The average Joe doesn't get his job performance evaluated by what kind of person he is, a coach shouldn't either. 

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2 minutes ago, JSHoosier said:

I get what you're saying but some of that just comes down to being decent people.  On it's own is good, but ultimately they're paid millions of dollars to win games; winning is the point of the game so they should absolutely be judged by wins and losses.

The average Joe doesn't get his job performance evaluated by what kind of person he is, a coach shouldn't either. 

Exactly. And I have said it before if I was still making the same exact mistakes I was two years ago I would have already been shown the door. 

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36 minutes ago, bigrod said:

I so want Miller to succeed, but he has been here long enough to see the characteristic trends of his teams. He said when he hired that he wanted this system that could beat anyone, anytime, with little time to prepare. To me, he was saying something to the effect that his teams would play his system so well that the opponent didn’t matter. Just not happening...

 

Defense is supposed to be our identity. Well, if we are hanging our hats on defense, there’s an awful lot of hats on the floor.

 

His teams have been consistently bad shooting teams, which makes the offense easy to defend. If we aren’t getting transition baskets, teams pack it in. I mean, it doesn’t take a brilliant coach to figure that game plan. Our strategy of getting to the line has limited success because we shoot free throws so poorly.

 

I think that because he has this mindset that his system is so airtight, he seems very resistant to make changes. He has said himself a number of times that they just have to get better at what they are already doing. This leads to long losing streaks because basically nothing changes. We also see the constant injuries. Why? How many times has he ever had his full compliment of players available?

 

So as much as many of us want him to succeed, these patterns continue to emerge with his teams: Bad defense. Poor shooting. Ineffective offense. Injuries. Inability to make effective adjustments. Unfortunately, we aren’t seeing many positive trends. The hope was this cupcake schedule would allow us to be playing our best basketball heading into to the B1G. Nothing I have seen indicates much has changed from last year.

 

 

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Nope we are very lucky to be 11-2. And the same themes have re-emerged as the last few years. I just don't understand...it was so easy to see this team needed shooting yet Archie hardly addressed it. Its rather troubling going into year 3 that you would be that naive to not address such a glaring need. Archie has flaws as a coach but his biggest weakness which has been talked about widely is the disappointment in recruiting. It just doesn't seem like we have enough capable guys on the floor.  On a top 10 team, most of what we are putting out there hardly would sniff the floor. 

Archie  needs a flat out grad transfer scorer next year if we don't make the tourney this year, otherwise, I don't see how anything will change and there is no way you can go 4 years without a tourney appearance at IU. If we don't make the tourney this year I really think he will need to shake up the staff as well if he wants a 4th year. 

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Just now, TXHoosierDaddy said:

Nope we are very lucky to be 11-2. And the same themes have re-emerged as the last few years. I just don't understand...it was so easy to see this team needed shooting yet Archie hardly addressed it. Its rather troubling going into year 3 that you would be that naive to not address such a glaring need. This guy needs a flat out grad transfer scorer next year if we don't make the tourney this year, otherwise, I don't see how anything will change and there is no way you can go 4 years without a tourney appearance at IU. If we don't make the tourney this year I really think he will need to shake up the staff as well if he wants a 4th year. 

Why would a grad transfer want to come to this team?  Same reason we can’t get the stud guards Archie went after. 

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1 minute ago, Brass Cannon said:

Why would a grad transfer want to come to this team?  Same reason we can’t get the stud guards Archie went after. 

Because there are now about 500 grad transfers every year. We are bound to get one if we at least try! Heck just think of what a kid like Zeisloft would do for this team. We don't have anyone close to that shooting ability. 

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I so want Miller to succeed, but he has been here long enough to see the characteristic trends of his teams. He said when he hired that he wanted this system that could beat anyone, anytime, with little time to prepare. To me, he was saying something to the effect that his teams would play his system so well that the opponent didn’t matter. Just not happening...
 
Defense is supposed to be our identity. Well, if we are hanging our hats on defense, there’s an awful lot of hats on the floor.
 
His teams have been consistently bad shooting teams, which makes the offense easy to defend. If we aren’t getting transition baskets, teams pack it in. I mean, it doesn’t take a brilliant coach to figure that game plan. Our strategy of getting to the line has limited success because we shoot free throws so poorly.
 
I think that because he has this mindset that his system is so airtight, he seems very resistant to make changes. He has said himself a number of times that they just have to get better at what they are already doing. This leads to long losing streaks because basically nothing changes. We also see the constant injuries. Why? How many times has he ever had his full compliment of players available?
 
So as much as many of us want him to succeed, these patterns continue to emerge with his teams: Bad defense. Poor shooting. Ineffective offense. Injuries. Inability to make effective adjustments. Unfortunately, we aren’t seeing many positive trends. The hope was this cupcake schedule would allow us to be playing our best basketball heading into to the B1G. Nothing I have seen indicates much has changed from last year.
 
 
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If we would have stuck to our game plan against Arkansas we would have beat them.

- hit our FTs
- continued to get it inside
- not turn it over
- get back on defense

Jackson-Davis had a bad night at the line 4-9 isn’t going to cut it. Phin can’t barely hit the rim on two technical foul shots. That’s too many wasted points.

Our guards have shown a trend not to feed the post in the second half. We have to get better at this even if they’re packing the lane. The few entry passes we did make were terrible.

Green attempted to turn it over twice on one possession before finally turning it over. That can’t happen from a senior captain. Durham can’t make a stupid mistake just because he’s frustrated. We could have used his ball habdling late in the game.

Arky hit some deep or contested threes. There’s not much you can do about that. The good looks they got in transition were absolutely on poor decisions on offense. How many assists did Green have for Arky made threes?

We’ve seen a trend of this and need to fix it. We’re not talented enough to go away from our strengths and win against good teams. This is on the coaching staff to get it through to the players. I’m sure we’ll lose more than a couple more games like this during conference play. Hopefully, it’s limited or a few players step up to hit outside shots.


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I still can't believe we lost this game.

  • 11 pt lead in 2nd half
  • TJD was a beast
  • Home game against unranked SEC team
  • No starter above 6'7", only go about 7 or 8 deep
  • First year coach whose team is coming off an NIT season

It could be a long year again.  I really, really, hope for this program's sake we can still muster a tournament invite.

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54 minutes ago, HoosierAloha said:


If we would have stuck to our game plan against Arkansas we would have beat them.

- hit our FTs
- continued to get it inside
- not turn it over
- get back on defense

Jackson-Davis had a bad night at the line 4-9 isn’t going to cut it. Phin can’t barely hit the rim on two technical foul shots. That’s too many wasted points.

Our guards have shown a trend not to feed the post in the second half. We have to get better at this even if they’re packing the lane. The few entry passes we did make were terrible.

Green attempted to turn it over twice on one possession before finally turning it over. That can’t happen from a senior captain. Durham can’t make a stupid mistake just because he’s frustrated. We could have used his ball habdling late in the game.

Arky hit some deep or contested threes. There’s not much you can do about that. The good looks they got in transition were absolutely on poor decisions on offense. How many assists did Green have for Arky made threes?

We’ve seen a trend of this and need to fix it. We’re not talented enough to go away from our strengths and win against good teams. This is on the coaching staff to get it through to the players. I’m sure we’ll lose more than a couple more games like this during conference play. Hopefully, it’s limited or a few players step up to hit outside shots.


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Very reasonable and accurate analysis of the game in my opinion. Pretty much exactly what I saw.

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