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ThompsonHoosier

Game Thread: 09/21 12:00PM ET Indiana vs UConn BTN

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And I think you can’t refute it so lazily call it a logical fallacy 

Peyton was lucky the Broncos defense was so good. He was throwing ducks all of the place. And even then he had more arm strength than Ramsay.


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13 hours ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Peyton Ramsey is 41st of 117 quarterbacks in YPA this year, 28th in passing efficiency rating, and 11th in completion percentage. Not bad. 

Against....who?   

Eastern Illinois is ranked #225 in Sagarin right now.  Behind Incarnate Word.  And Georgetown.  And Wagner.  And Bethune Cookman.  UConn is #170.   Stony Brook, Columbia, and New Hampshire are ranked higher  (IU is #60 for what it's worth.  Purdue 71, Louisville 73, and Army, who had Michigan beat, 80.   And for all of you Les Miles fans, Kansas is #96)   Pardon us for not being impressed by those numbers.  (Ramsey averaged 4.9 YPA vs OSU, so I'd say his stats have been a bit padded by the opponents)

His arm prevents the ball from arriving to receivers (further away than 15 yards who wind up waiting on the ball allowing the defense to close) from doing anything after they catch it.  Saturday, it prevented a touchdown.   That's simple truth; and the playbook changes when he plays.  More truth. 

You can throw numbers like completion % (anyone here including women could complete some of his throws) to mask the truth; but there is one set of facts.  How you view them is up to you; but Ramsey is a limited QB which has always limited Indiana's offense.

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4 hours ago, Old Friend said:

Against....who?   

Eastern Illinois is ranked #225 in Sagarin right now.  Behind Incarnate Word.  And Georgetown.  And Wagner.  And Bethune Cookman.  UConn is #170.   Stony Brook, Columbia, and New Hampshire are ranked higher  (IU is #60 for what it's worth.  Purdue 71, Louisville 73, and Army, who had Michigan beat, 80.   And for all of you Les Miles fans, Kansas is #96)   Pardon us for not being impressed by those numbers.  (Ramsey averaged 4.9 YPA vs OSU, so I'd say his stats have been a bit padded by the opponents)

His arm prevents the ball from arriving to receivers (further away than 15 yards who wind up waiting on the ball allowing the defense to close) from doing anything after they catch it.  Saturday, it prevented a touchdown.   That's simple truth; and the playbook changes when he plays.  More truth. 

You can throw numbers like completion % (anyone here including women could complete some of his throws) to mask the truth; but there is one set of facts.  How you view them is up to you; but Ramsey is a limited QB which has always limited Indiana's offense.

Last year you discredited his completion percentage because his YPA was low. Guess what, his completion percentage is even better this year and his YPA is two yards higher. Michael Penix has only played crappy teams this season but that hasn't stopped you and others from anointing him the second coming. Don't talk about "facts" when you consistently ignore them to push your agenda. You do it with Fred Glass because he's your buddy, and you do it on this too. 

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Last year you discredited his completion percentage because his YPA was low. Guess what, his completion percentage is even better this year and his YPA is two yards higher. Michael Penix has only played crappy teams this season but that hasn't stopped you and others from anointing him the second coming. Don't talk about "facts" when you consistently ignore them to push your agenda. You do it with Fred Glass because he's your buddy, and you do it on this too. 

Because you can see it in Penix and the playbook gets opened more. As a Junior and someone who has started about 20 games, they shouldn’t be restricting the playbook. But they are and there is a reason. What do you think will happen against Michigan State? A team that will load the box and make Ramsey beat them. They will easily dominate the offensive line and we won’t have a shot at beating them because we can’t even take a shot downfield. It should say something to you when the coaching staff made him the backup and keeps the playbook the simplest it can. He is what he is. A backup for a bad team.


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Are people seriously arguing Ramsey vs Penix? I thought this would be shut down after last week. Regardless of who you think is better, although I think it’s a pretty large margin just from a potential standpoint, I don’t understand how someone would not just want to see something different. Ramsey clearly isn’t going to get us to a bowl game or be that much of a threat from any standpoint on offense against a team that has a pulse, especially since we can’t get the run game going like we were last year. I’ve seen many people mention the underthrow to Hale, which was very frustrating and has happened many times with Ramsey that could’ve been touchdowns, I can remember some from the Ohio State game as well, but one thing that gets me is he’s even late to check downs. I don’t know how many times he’s lollipoped it to someone behind the line of scrimmage and they’ve gotten blown up right as the ball got there because it takes so long. Against some of the better teams he’s gonna get someone hurt eventually. Hope Penix can get better very soon. Don’t know the reliability of it but I saw somewhere on Twitter the other day that he was available on Saturday in case of an emergency, which luckily we did not have to find out.

 

 

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Okay....so again idk why I have to repeat myself.......

throw out all past and present stats because if that were the case, the coaches would have gone with Ramsey and not Penix. 

 

Ramsey- he can throw decent balls. Can throw some deep balls.  He is a threat running the ball, when he makes the right read. He has troubles making right reads on most read options. Playbook is fitted to him and limited to crossing patters and screens. I’ve never seen IUs playbook, but when you’ve played college ball....which I have and as a WR, Ramsey’s playbook is very limited. I’m not attacking him as a human. I’m stating what factors play into this. I’m glad he is our backup and I’m happy he’s stepped back to his role as a starter for now. 

 

Penix- arm strength is well above average. Again this is the velocity and pace he gets the call to his WRs. In the games against crap teams....he actually made correct read options and didn’t get his RB killed.  Penix allows the receivers to do what they do and that’s catch then run. This reason is why he was named the starter and will be the starter when he’s healthy. He allows playmakers to make plays. Coaches even hinted to this in interviews during fall camp. Players have even alluded to this in their interviews.  

Im thinking coaches were ready to give Penix the reigns with the WRs that would be on the field this season and graduatin...with Penix you allow them to make plays down the field. 

This isn’t a completion percentage argument. This isn’t a interception argument. This is an ability base argument. This isn’t an agenda argument. This isn’t a personal attack. This is an argument based on attributes each player exhibits. This is an argument about the benefits of certain abilities. 

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10 minutes ago, The Ola Depot said:

Are people seriously arguing Ramsey vs Penix? I thought this would be shut down after last week. Regardless of who you think is better, although I think it’s a pretty large margin just from a potential standpoint, I don’t understand how someone would not just want to see something different. Ramsey clearly isn’t going to get us to a bowl game or be that much of a threat from any standpoint on offense against a team that has a pulse, especially since we can’t get the run game going like we were last year. I’ve seen many people mention the underthrow to Hale, which was very frustrating and has happened many times with Ramsey that could’ve been touchdowns, I can remember some from the Ohio State game as well, but one thing that gets me is he’s even late to check downs. I don’t know how many times he’s lollipoped it to someone behind the line of scrimmage and they’ve gotten blown up right as the ball got there because it takes so long. Against some of the better teams he’s gonna get someone hurt eventually. Hope Penix can get better very soon. Don’t know the reliability of it but I saw somewhere on Twitter the other day that he was available on Saturday in case of an emergency, which luckily we did not have to find out.

 

 

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We were on the same thought train this morning. Mine just took longer to type during this Monday morning Webex meeting 

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51 minutes ago, The Ola Depot said:

Are people seriously arguing Ramsey vs Penix? I thought this would be shut down after last week. Regardless of who you think is better, although I think it’s a pretty large margin just from a potential standpoint, I don’t understand how someone would not just want to see something different. Ramsey clearly isn’t going to get us to a bowl game or be that much of a threat from any standpoint on offense against a team that has a pulse, especially since we can’t get the run game going like we were last year. I’ve seen many people mention the underthrow to Hale, which was very frustrating and has happened many times with Ramsey that could’ve been touchdowns, I can remember some from the Ohio State game as well, but one thing that gets me is he’s even late to check downs. I don’t know how many times he’s lollipoped it to someone behind the line of scrimmage and they’ve gotten blown up right as the ball got there because it takes so long. Against some of the better teams he’s gonna get someone hurt eventually. Hope Penix can get better very soon. Don’t know the reliability of it but I saw somewhere on Twitter the other day that he was available on Saturday in case of an emergency, which luckily we did not have to find out.

 

 

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Because he sucked against Ohio State? If we're judging players by how they did against OSU then no one on the team should have a job. Penix has played 1 game in his career against a Big 10 team, and he sucked in it. Arm strength isn't the end-all with quarterbacks. If it was then Richard Lagow would be playing on Sundays. Penix struggled to beat Ball State and folks think he's the guy who is going to lead us to victory against "teams with pulses"? 

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Because he sucked against Ohio State? If we're judging players by how they did against OSU then no one on the team should have a job. Penix has played 1 game in his career against a Big 10 team, and he sucked in it. Arm strength isn't the end-all with quarterbacks. If it was then Richard Lagow would be playing on Sundays. Penix struggled to beat Ball State and folks think he's the guy who is going to lead us to victory against "teams with pulses"? 

I wasn’t saying the Ohio State game was the determining factor in ending this debate, I just assumed it’d be the nail in the coffin. We’ve had over two years of Ramsey, one in which he got beat out midway through the year by the quarterback you used against my point. I don’t think he’s improved that much going into year 3 and we have not gone bowling in either of the years he’s had minutes. You are right that we have not seen Penix play much, not as much as the coaches have who decided to make him the starter by the way. We saw him last year, as a true freshman against Penn State nonetheless with Mike DeBord as OC, in a game where his receivers really let him down most of the game, and against a middle school team. And I was able to see potential in that, if you weren’t, then at least look at the points we do have. It’s the same Ramsey we’ve seen in the past 2 years and that Ramsey has not been able to cut it. He is a great backup quarterback, he’s perfect for the role he was placed in at the beginning of this season. If you see that and don’t want change, you just want this team to stay in the constant cycle of 5 win seasons we’re stuck in.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, The Ola Depot said:

I wasn’t saying the Ohio State game was the determining factor in ending this debate, I just assumed it’d be the nail in the coffin. We’ve had over two years of Ramsey, one in which he got beat out midway through the year by the quarterback you used against my point. I don’t think he’s improved that much going into year 3 and we have not gone bowling in either of the years he’s had minutes. You are right that we have not seen Penix play much, not as much as the coaches have who decided to make him the starter by the way. We saw him last year, as a true freshman against Penn State nonetheless with Mike DeBord as OC, in a game where his receivers really let him down most of the game, and against a middle school team. And I was able to see potential in that, if you weren’t, then at least look at the points we do have. It’s the same Ramsey we’ve seen in the past 2 years and that Ramsey has not been able to cut it. He is a great backup quarterback, he’s perfect for the role he was placed in at the beginning of this season. If you see that and don’t want change, you just want this team to stay in the constant cycle of 5 win seasons we’re stuck in.

 

 

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You say that we're stuck in a constant cycle of 5 win seasons with Ramsey. Last year Ramsey led a 22 point fourth quarter comeback on the road against Minnesota, just to have Tom Allen's vaunted defense give up a 67 yard touchdown pass on the very next possession to end the game. Ramsey isn't the reason why IU is a 5 win team. It doesn't matter who you put at quarterback, Tom Allen is still going to be the coach, and we will always be capped because of that. 

Ramsey is an average quarterback. Maybe Penix will be an above average quarterback. I would like to see how he does against real competition, but so far he can't stay healthy long enough to do that. 

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You say that we're stuck in a constant cycle of 5 win seasons with Ramsey. Last year Ramsey led a 22 point fourth quarter comeback on the road against Minnesota, just to have Tom Allen's vaunted defense give up a 67 yard touchdown pass on the very next possession to end the game. Ramsey isn't the reason why IU is a 5 win team. It doesn't matter who you put at quarterback, Tom Allen is still going to be the coach, and we will always be capped because of that. 
Ramsey is an average quarterback. Maybe Penix will be an above average quarterback. I would like to see how he does against real competition, but so far he can't stay healthy long enough to do that. 

Ramsey did have two very good TD passes in that game, the one to Hale to start the comeback was probably the best pass I’ve seen him make. He also had an AWFUL interception on Minnesota’s side of the field late in the game when they were down 7 if I remember correctly, and then fumbled the ball to end the game. He did bring them back in that game for sure, but, although he was working uphill with quite a steep slope, he gave it away with an awful interception too. That may have been his best game in terms of stretching the field and game scenario at least.


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11 minutes ago, The Ola Depot said:


Ramsey did have two very good TD passes in that game, the one to Hale to start the comeback was probably the best pass I’ve seen him make. He also had an AWFUL interception on Minnesota’s side of the field late in the game when they were down 7 if I remember correctly, and then fumbled the ball to end the game. He did bring them back in that game for sure, but, although he was working uphill with quite a steep slope, he gave it away with an awful interception too. That may have been his best game in terms of stretching the field and game scenario at least.


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And I don't think Ramsey is a great quarterback. He's very average. So if people think Penix is the right move because he has more potential then I don't have a problem with that. He does have a lot more potential. But right now that's all it is, because we haven't got to see him do it on the field yet.

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My thing is I might even be willing to Penix is better.  Ever slightly but I think his skill set are counter to what the team needs. 

We don’t have the defensive depth to run a fast paced offense. Our goal should be to try and keep our D off the field.

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11 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

My thing is I might even be willing to Penix is better.  Ever slightly but I think his skill set are counter to what the team needs. 

We don’t have the defensive depth to run a fast paced offense. Our goal should be to try and keep our D off the field.

That's what I thought worked really well in the UConn game. We ate up a ton of clock and kept the defense off the field. It looks like the defense is a weakness of ours, so the longer they're off the field the better. A quick hitting offense isn't a good fit for us.

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If we win everything where the talent level on the field is close, we might get to six wins. I think Pennix gives us the best opportunity to do that. I haven't seen anything from Ramsey this year that tells me he is better than last year. The UCON game looked like I was watching last year's offense and it was uninspiring to me. I have nothing but respect for how Ramsey conducts himself, but I just don't think he is the guy who will get us where we want to go. Maybe Pennix isn't either in which case we are a four or five win program.

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Per 24/7:

 

Indiana starting quarterback Michael Penix will return to practice this week and will be able to throw in practice, IU coach Tom Allen said today.

 

It will be a game-time decision on Indiana’s starting quarterback for Saturday, Allen said.

 

Penix, a 6-foot-3 redshirt freshman who was named IU’s starter prior to the season, hasn’t played since IU’s week two win over Eastern Illinois.

 

Redshirt junior Peyton Ramsey has started the past two games for Indiana, 3-1 overall and 0-1 Big Ten heading into Saturday’s Big Ten game at No. 25 Michigan State (3-1, 1-0).

 

“All I know is, he’s getting better,” Allen said of Penix, later adding, “I’m not going to put him out there if he’s not ready.”

 

IU has not commented on the specifics of Penix’s injury, but he was seen on campus last week with a bag of ice behind the shoulder area of his throwing arm. On Saturday, Penix was dressed but did not throw in pregame warmups.

 

IU’s offense has an observably different dynamic with the velocity of Penix’s throws.

 

Penix has thrown for 523 yards, completing 38-for-60 passes with three interceptions and two interceptions in his first two college starts.

 

Ramsey, who has started 18 career games, has thrown for 635 yards while playing in three games this season, completing 55 of 74 passes with five touchdowns and two interceptions.

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My thing is I might even be willing to Penix is better.  Ever slightly but I think his skill set are counter to what the team needs. 
We don’t have the defensive depth to run a fast paced offense. Our goal should be to try and keep our D off the field.

The team needs to score and our offense isn’t going to be strong enough to execute a high possession march down the field against the B1G.

Penix can capitalize on opportunities created by his playmakers where Ramsey cannot.

Can you and Hoosierfan respond to lucel’s points? He’s laid out a very clear argument.


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10 minutes ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:


The team needs to score and our offense isn’t going to be strong enough to execute a high possession march down the field against the B1G.

Penix can capitalize on opportunities created by his playmakers where Ramsey cannot.

Can you and Hoosierfan respond to lucel’s points? He’s laid out a very clear argument.


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Offense isn’t going to outscore the teams in the big ten in a shoot out. 

Did Army almost beat Michigan by turning the game into a shoot out. No

And Lucels point of what?  Penix let’s playmakers make plays?  How many playmakers do you think we have. 

I would rather the defense not be gassed the entire second half than to watch our WRs make the occasional play between drops

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1 hour ago, Brass Cannon said:

Offense isn’t going to outscore the teams in the big ten in a shoot out. 

Did Army almost beat Michigan by turning the game into a shoot out. No

And Lucels point of what?  Penix let’s playmakers make plays?  How many playmakers do you think we have. 

I would rather the defense not be gassed the entire second half than to watch our WRs make the occasional play between drops

Lol okay. Well then let’s take playmakers out of my sentence. We will replace it with wide receivers who can be playmakers if they are allowed to move after they catch....  

play types let’s go with bubble screens....since I’m rewatching the games just to have points that will I guess give you the time of day to address since you can’t address anything that’s part of being a QB...timing and getting balls in windows to allow YAC which is a football term....yards after catch...which WRs can get if the ball is placed correctly and they don’t have to adjust to slower balls or underthrown balls. 

And it’s not every throw allows guys to make plays,  because teams will have good coverage, but with Penix if a WR can get free, that much more of velocity can be the difference in a 7 yard gain into a 14-20 yard gain, which moves the ball and keeps the defense off the field. 

So let’s just go to screen passes because that’s a pretty easy throw, if you watch

Penix throw his screen or bubble passes....his ball typically arrives on time, which allows a WR to get his shoulders up field square with the line of scrimmage so he can make a move....this also allows the blocking WR to not have to hold his block on the CB as long or this doesn’t allow the other DB or LB to get over to the flats and destroy our WR. 

Ramsey doesn’t have the velocity on most of his bubbles to where it allows the WRs to turn up field.....WRs have to hold their blocks longer. 

Im watching the ball state game currently and fast forwarding to the offensive plays......to your argument that with Penix we are going way to fast. The first drive was fast on getting the snap off, probably a start of the game tempo, get the offense going, then we settled in to what deboer typically does. We get the snap off between 10-18 secs left on the clock....I’ve only seen a few get to single digits....due to changes when the defense switches up...so the thought process that this is a Kevin Wilson up tempo Offense....not sure where you’re getting that.  Part of the ball state issues with short drives were in part to not having a run offense, when we could chip away at the down and distance....our drives were sustained and weren’t quick turnarounds. Kevin Wilson’s offense typically called the snap within 10-15 seconds which was too fast for a lot of our defenses he had.....when Allen became DC I believe there was a convo to hold the ball longer and we started to see snaps around where we are at today.  Deboer hasn’t really ever ran a hurry up and snap offense in his tenured yes they are west coast/pistol, no huddle, but a lot of offenses are that way...they lineup and see what the defense setups in....then there are checks of need be. 

 

I’ll try to dictate my points to being up to you’re standards for a conversation. I didn’t realize playmakers was such a deal breaker. I know I’m being petty, but that’s in part to your response or lack thereof response to valid points....not because I said them, but because this is what is looked at when determining starting QBs, by the coaches and by people who have been to practices and have watched these two QBs side by side and play after play have also seen what and why the coaches made this decision, it’s a night and day difference when it comes to arm strength and timing on throws to allow them to catch and run....this Can you as a QB give your skill players time to make people miss and or break tackles.....it’s hard to do that when DBs are able to adjust and catch up when the ball is floating in the air. Has Ramsey had some good throws yes, are They floaters and late to spots on the field yes, again nobody is saying he’s a god awful player who never should see the field ever again....no....I’m not saying that and the reasonable people who are making valid points which you are simply refusing to talk about.....they aren’t saying any of these things. 

 

So so I guess my points don’t fit your agenda. I’m all for having a conversation and can see what side you are on and the points you have laid out, I’m not saying you’re wrong or have invalid points, but mines invalid because we don’t have playmakers.....haha okay you win man......but it’s not a conversation when you refuse to listen to others points when they are just as valid as yours. 

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