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6 hours ago, woodenshoemanHoosierfan said:

What I'm asking is what this base wants when it comes to recruiting? Not necessarily if we thought the last class was underwhelming. Maybe I wasn't clear.
I continually read some want us to go after the high 4 star and 5 stars. Others want us to build with players who will be here all 4 yrs. Those are the ones we are targeting now for 2020, but some have said it is underwhelming. I just want to hear what BTB member who they think Archie should go after.

I myself want the players who will be here 4 yrs with maybe a 1 or 2 yr and done player sprinkled in. I don't consider high 3 star or lower 4 star as diamonds in the rough, especially if they have other major programs offering. I also don't care where they are from

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I want a guy making 3 million a year to not whiff at his top 4-6 options at a position of need. 

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I just can't get excited anymore about the program there were nights where I would be watching the games with my parents screaming at the TV and now I don't even do that anymore. After the whole Sampson debacle I didn't really know what to think about the program which disappointed me because the athletic department screwed up majorly. I honestly really wasn't sure about Crean either until he got a few guys that made a difference but still the same result of a sweet sixteen and nothing beyond that. Now I'm still unsure I like most people coaches anywhere between 2 or 3 years at the most to figure things out and if you haven't then really what's the point. It's all like Groundhog Day where it is always the same and nothing changes. I don't know maybe I'm just crazy. 

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I just can't get excited anymore about the program there were nights where I would be watching the games with my parents screaming at the TV and now I don't even do that anymore. After the whole Sampson debacle I didn't really know what to think about the program which disappointed me because the athletic department screwed up majorly. I honestly really wasn't sure about Crean either until he got a few guys that made a difference but still the same result of a sweet sixteen and nothing beyond that. Now I'm still unsure I like most people coaches anywhere between 2 or 3 years at the most to figure things out and if you haven't then really what's the point. It's all like Groundhog Day where it is always the same and nothing changes. I don't know maybe I'm just crazy. 

Maybe my favorite Olivia post of all time.

 

Pretty much sums things up.

 

People will consider it a “success” to just make the NCAA and finish in the middle of the B1G in year 3 of Archie’s tenure.

 

Idk, I want to be a top 10 program nation wide, not a top 7-8 program in the B1G.

 

Glass sold a vision. I’m not seeing it. Say we are a middle of the pack team, this year. Then we lose DeRon and Devonte, add 3 or so guys that won’t project to start and expect that team to be great? I guess if our development is phenomenal and Hunter gets healthy and our young guys improve more than other teams young guys...........

 

 

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2 minutes ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Maybe my favorite Olivia post of all time.

 

Pretty much sums things up.

 

People will consider it a “success” to just make the NCAA and finish in the middle of the B1G in year 3 of Archie’s tenure.

 

Idk, I want to be a top 10 program nation wide, not a top 7-8 program in the B1G.

 

Glass sold a vision. I’m not seeing it. Say we are a middle of the pack team, this year. Then we lose DeRon and Devonte, add 3 or so guys that won’t project to start and expect that team to be great? I guess if our development is phenomenal and Hunter gets healthy and our young guys improve more than other teams young guys...........

 

 

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I mean we did have guys like Vic, Hulls, Cody, Watford along with a few others but had a chance to do something when we were ranked number one at various times and we couldn't even get past Syracuse of all teams. Maybe I'm just waiting for some inspiration. 

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I mean we did have guys like Vic, Hulls, Cody, Watford along with a few others but had a chance to do something when we were ranked number one at various times and we couldn't even get past Syracuse of all teams. Maybe I'm just waiting for some inspiration. 

We all are, but I am not like other fans that hate on that loss so much.

That Syracuse team was good, long, and athletic. 2 things we really weren’t. Oladipo was our athlete. And Zeller was amazing but his athleticism and short wingspan hurt him at times against longer players, especially athletic ones. That loss didn’t surprise me and if you make sweet sixteens often enough we will win one eventually. The fact we make 1 every 15 years is the bigger problem. Ideally we should have a shot at sweet sixteens annually and realistically make the every 3-4 years.


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1 minute ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:


We all are, but I am not like other fans that hate on that loss so much.

That Syracuse team was good, long, and athletic. 2 things we really weren’t. Oladipo was our athlete. And Zeller was amazing but his athleticism and short wingspan hurt him at times against longer players, especially athletic ones. That loss didn’t surprise me and if you make sweet sixteens often enough we will win one eventually. The fact we make 1 every 15 years is the bigger problem. Ideally we should have a shot at sweet sixteens annually and realistically make the every 3-4 years.


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I would agree with that.

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This.  THIS is what just infuriates me about the Tom Crean tenure.   I hate this excuse.  Tom Crean's Marquette teams were in the same conference as Syracuse for 3 seasons, and it looked like his offense was structured as if he'd never seen it.   Butler beat it the year before.  You're (the collective "you") telling me Butler was more athletic than Indiana was?   Indiana had two of the NBA draft's top 4 players, for crying out loud!  Butler showed the formula.  You put a shooter at the FT line and make the defense collapse around him, which opens up other things.  Crean?  He put Zeller there.  First possession of the game, he gets the ball at the foul line...WITH an available jump shot.  Instead?  He drives the ball, gets his shot blocked, and was timid for the next 39 minutes.  Game.  Over.    We needed combinations of Sheehey or Oladipo there; Zeller in the short corners and on the block, Hulls, Oladipo, and Watford on the wings with Yogi running things.    But alas, we allowed the defense to stay extended because we didn't have a shooter in the middle of the floor, and both Hulls and Yogi were scoreless.   I lost all faith in Tom Crean after that game.
I do agree that we need to be in the Sweet 16 on a regular basis.  I personally think we need to be in the top 4 of the Big Ten year in and year out.   Start with that, and everything else takes care of itself.

What’s even crazier is that we almost lost in the round of 32 that year. It took some last minute heroics by Oladipo to get us by temple

The one thing that I will say about the Crean era is that we got out and ran and scored some points and did it with some flare. In the end that model wasn’t sustainable but what even harder for me is that Archie’s system thus far isn’t fun to watch and we don’t win.




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This.  THIS is what just infuriates me about the Tom Crean tenure.   I hate this excuse.  Tom Crean's Marquette teams were in the same conference as Syracuse for 3 seasons, and it looked like his offense was structured as if he'd never seen it.   Butler beat it the year before.  You're (the collective "you") telling me Butler was more athletic than Indiana was?   Indiana had two of the NBA draft's top 4 players, for crying out loud!  Butler showed the formula.  You put a shooter at the FT line and make the defense collapse around him, which opens up other things.  Crean?  He put Zeller there.  First possession of the game, he gets the ball at the foul line...WITH an available jump shot.  Instead?  He drives the ball, gets his shot blocked, and was timid for the next 39 minutes.  Game.  Over.    We needed combinations of Sheehey or Oladipo there; Zeller in the short corners and on the block, Hulls, Oladipo, and Watford on the wings with Yogi running things.    But alas, we allowed the defense to stay extended because we didn't have a shooter in the middle of the floor, and both Hulls and Yogi were scoreless.   I lost all faith in Tom Crean after that game.

I do agree that we need to be in the Sweet 16 on a regular basis.  I personally think we need to be in the top 4 of the Big Ten year in and year out.   Start with that, and everything else takes care of itself.

Yeah, I’m good with this. It was a bad game plan because Crean intentionally tried to eliminate the mid range game due to analytics. He wanted layups and 3’s. Which played into Syracuse active zone.

 

My bigger point was that was a good Syracuse team. Better than people give them credit for.

 

 

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10 hours ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:


We all are, but I am not like other fans that hate on that loss so much.

That Syracuse team was good, long, and athletic. 2 things we really weren’t. Oladipo was our athlete. And Zeller was amazing but his athleticism and short wingspan hurt him at times against longer players, especially athletic ones. That loss didn’t surprise me and if you make sweet sixteens often enough we will win one eventually. The fact we make 1 every 15 years is the bigger problem. Ideally we should have a shot at sweet sixteens annually and realistically make the every 3-4 years.


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Syracuse was the matchup I feared most that tournament.  Michael Carter-Williams was a nightmare for us, 6'6" PG that was better than a freshman Yogi and a banged-up Hulls.

That team had a Hall of Fame coach who had decades to recruit to his system, and they went on to the Final 4.

 

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1 hour ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:

Yeah, I’m good with this. It was a bad game plan because Crean intentionally tried to eliminate the mid range game due to analytics. He wanted layups and 3’s. Which played into Syracuse active zone.

 

My bigger point was that was a good Syracuse team. Better than people give them credit for.

 

 

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Yep, that Syracuse team was very good and were experts at playing zone defense (they didn't just "dabble in it" like most teams).  Our team's flaws played right into their hands, along with Crean's apparent inability to prepare against it.  Our ability to shoot over them was hampered by the size difference and the fact that Hulls got injured in the previous game or two (and I also remember he was already in a bit of a slump IIRC). 

Maybe it's just my bias, but I just don't understand why we've been caught with our pants down a number of times because of a lack of reliable shooters - during CTC's reign and then again last season.  Maybe it's just selective memory, or that kids just aren't as good at it (no evidence to support that), but it seems we always had at least two starters who were deadeye and had a few more on the bench.

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12 hours ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:


We all are, but I am not like other fans that hate on that loss so much.

That Syracuse team was good, long, and athletic. 2 things we really weren’t. Oladipo was our athlete. And Zeller was amazing but his athleticism and short wingspan hurt him at times against longer players, especially athletic ones. That loss didn’t surprise me and if you make sweet sixteens often enough we will win one eventually. The fact we make 1 every 15 years is the bigger problem. Ideally we should have a shot at sweet sixteens annually and realistically make the every 3-4 years.


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I was not surprised by the loss to Syracuse. I remember when the brackets came out that year, I told my son, if we meet Syracuse in the Sweet 16, we're in trouble. 

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12 hours ago, WayneFleekHoosier said:


We all are, but I am not like other fans that hate on that loss so much.

That Syracuse team was good, long, and athletic. 2 things we really weren’t. Oladipo was our athlete. And Zeller was amazing but his athleticism and short wingspan hurt him at times against longer players, especially athletic ones. That loss didn’t surprise me and if you make sweet sixteens often enough we will win one eventually. The fact we make 1 every 15 years is the bigger problem. Ideally we should have a shot at sweet sixteens annually and realistically make the every 3-4 years.


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My issue there has never been that we lost; Syracuse was a good team that exclusively ran zone and followed it up by holding Michigan to a low score albeit in a loss.

It was that were we completely unprepared and looked totally incompetent.  Crean was in their conference and faced them multiple times so he should've had an idea, but if he could've done a worse job preparing I don't want to see it.

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19 hours ago, woodenshoemanHoosierfan said:

What I'm asking is what this base wants when it comes to recruiting? Not necessarily if we thought the last class was underwhelming. Maybe I wasn't clear.
I continually read some want us to go after the high 4 star and 5 stars. Others want us to build with players who will be here all 4 yrs. Those are the ones we are targeting now for 2020, but some have said it is underwhelming. I just want to hear what BTB member who they think Archie should go after.

I myself want the players who will be here 4 yrs with maybe a 1 or 2 yr and done player sprinkled in. I don't consider high 3 star or lower 4 star as diamonds in the rough, especially if they have other major programs offering. I also don't care where they are from

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Speaking for myself, I want players ranked in the 25-80 range. The low-end five stars that will be around more than one year. The high-end four stars that can hold a spot in the rotation in year one, and will be around for three or four. This is the range that programs like recent champions Villanova, Virginia and North Carolina have built their rosters.

I think we have that with Trayce. I think we'll have that with Jerome, health permitting. I wouldn't yet place anyone Archie has brought in within that grouping. Romeo was a great get and I'd love to add him to a roster of such players, ready to contend, but we weren't and he's gone now. Rob showed flashes last season, but whether due to experience or injury, flashes are all we saw. Race, Jake, and Damezi weren't ready to contribute at this level.

What makes our 2020 targets underwhelming for me is they seem more the caliber of Jake and Damezi, players at the fringes of that fourth star. They will likely be around for three or four years but probably won't contribute until then, either. That felt fine when Archie was a new coach, recruiting kids to Indiana for the very first time. It doesn't feel great to be still trying to build a foundation three recruiting classes in, with several seasons to go after that before the talent develops.

Some of this is undoubtedly due to the weakness of the 2020 class within the state. The 2021 class is loaded, and I'm sure we'll see our targets shift accordingly. But we also saw Archie target those top 50, top 80 kids in the 2019 class. It didn't go well. The only visits we received in the summer and fall, even before our season went sideways, were from the in-state kids. Lester Quinones and Anthony Harris visited in the spring, but committed elsewhere. We haven't landed an out of state target since Race and Jerome were Archie's first two commits, two years ago this week.

We're going to need to step outside the state to fill our diet of the kids I want to see us land. I just don't have a lot of confidence right now in this staff's ability to do so. That's why I also feel underwhelmed by the new offers I saw go out this week to five-stars in the 2021 class. I have my fingers crossed for Lander. I don't have any expectation of landing Franck Kepnang from PA, a player right in my preferred range that should have me excited, but I'm just not.

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1 minute ago, JSHoosier said:

My issue there has never been that we lost; Syracuse was a good team that exclusively ran zone and followed it up by holding Michigan to a low score albeit in a loss.

It was that were we completely unprepared and looked totally incompetent.  Crean was in their conference and faced them multiple times so he should've had an idea, but if he could've done a worse job preparing I don't want to see it.

Only thing worse than his prep was his in game coaching. That’s the game that led to Calbert leaving the program also

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2 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

Only thing worse than his prep was his in game coaching. That’s the game that led to Calbert leaving the program also

He did nothing to adjust, but that was per usual.  Not sure I've heard what it was that leading to Cheaney leaving.

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