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CrossboneIU22

2019 Off-Season IU Roster News and Moves

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How does he not fit the role that HoosierAloha described? He isn't a perimeter player. He can't shoot and he can't dribble. How many 3s in the NBA can't shoot or dribble? Hell, how many 4s in the NBA can't shoot or dribble? He shot 22% from 3 and 51% from the line last year. Of the 9 guys who played 10+ minutes last year, he had the 3rd highest turnover percentage. 
Smith had the 9th worst 3 point percentage last year on a team that was dead last in the B1G in that category. I'm all for players improving their games, but it'd be rather silly for his focus to be on 3 point shooting. Ideally he wouldn't shoot any next season.
If he wants to make the NBA then that's great, but he can do that on his own time. Archie's job isn't to get players to the NBA, it's to win basketball games. Right now Smith plays for IU and his job is to play the role IU needs him to play to help the team. Making the NBA is a whole lot harder than you make it out to be. Juwan Morgan went undrafted and was just waived by the Jazz and he's 10x the player Justin Smith is. 

Archie’s job is to make players better, put players in a position to succeed and as part of being a basketball coach at a school like Indiana he has to help guys reach their goals and dreams. What player would ever commit to Indiana if they feel the coach doesn’t care about their goals to reach the NBA? You think Al is playing PG now because that’s what is best for the team? Because that’s what he is best at? Probably a part of his growth and what scouts want to see and Archie likely sees that as a positive because he can now develop Al into a multi purpose guard. Which makes the team better. You think Archie is telling Smith to quit working on his game because he’s not going to make the NBA? Or is he encouraging him because he knows it will make the team better? You would be an awful coach at the college level. Smith is a perimeter player. Being a slasher is being a perimeter player. The amount of 3/4’s that cant or couldn’t shoot the 3 is a pretty good number. And Smith May never become a rotation player but may a bench mob dude and I’m sure he’d be happy with that.


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How does he not fit the role that HoosierAloha described? He isn't a perimeter player. He can't shoot and he can't dribble. How many 3s in the NBA can't shoot or dribble? Hell, how many 4s in the NBA can't shoot or dribble? He shot 22% from 3 and 51% from the line last year. Of the 9 guys who played 10+ minutes last year, he had the 3rd highest turnover percentage. 
Smith had the 9th worst 3 point percentage last year on a team that was dead last in the B1G in that category. I'm all for players improving their games, but it'd be rather silly for his focus to be on 3 point shooting. Ideally he wouldn't shoot any next season.
If he wants to make the NBA then that's great, but he can do that on his own time. Archie's job isn't to get players to the NBA, it's to win basketball games. Right now Smith plays for IU and his job is to play the role IU needs him to play to help the team. Making the NBA is a whole lot harder than you make it out to be. Juwan Morgan went undrafted and was just waived by the Jazz and he's 10x the player Justin Smith is. 

Juwan Morgan was a great college player. Sometimes it just doesn’t work out. There are players playing in the NBA that he was better than in college. That happens. Smiths career isn’t over. His dream to make it to the NBA isn’t over.


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5 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:


Archie’s job is to make players better, put players in a position to succeed and as part of being a basketball coach at a school like Indiana he has to help guys reach their goals and dreams. What player would ever commit to Indiana if they feel the coach doesn’t care about their goals to reach the NBA? You think Al is playing PG now because that’s what is best for the team? Because that’s what he is best at? Probably a part of his growth and what scouts want to see and Archie likely sees that as a positive because he can now develop Al into a multi purpose guard. Which makes the team better. You think Archie is telling Smith to quit working on his game because he’s not going to make the NBA? Or is he encouraging him because he knows it will make the team better? You would be an awful coach at the college level. Smith is a perimeter player. Being a slasher is being a perimeter player. The amount of 3/4’s that cant or couldn’t shoot the 3 is a pretty good number. And Smith May never become a rotation player but may a bench mob dude and I’m sure he’d be happy with that.


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I would be an awful coach because I wouldn't play a guy who can't shoot or dribble on the perimeter. Ok Joe. Just because someone is the size of a perimeter player doesn't mean they should be one. You didn't answer my question. How many 3s in the NBA can't shoot or dribble? 

Archie's job is to coach the IU basketball team. If he's playing players in roles because that's what the NBA wants and not because it's what's best for the team then he's not doing his job. Tom Crean "helped guys get to the NBA." He still got fired because he didn't win. 

We have two players on our team with realistic NBA hopes: Jerome Hunter and Trayce Jackson-Davis. Could other players end up making it? Sure. But it'd be a long shot. No one has said Smith shouldn't "work on his game". But if he's out there hoisting up threes every game we're in trouble. 

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6 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:


Juwan Morgan was a great college player. Sometimes it just doesn’t work out. There are players playing in the NBA that he was better than in college. That happens. Smiths career isn’t over. His dream to make it to the NBA isn’t over.


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IU isn't an NBA farm team. If Justin Smith or anyone else doesn't want to play the role that's best for the team then Archie will find someone else who will. Sure it's not glamorous, but there's no shame in doing the dirty work on the basketball floor. Put backs and good defense. Freddie McSwain did it, and he did it well. Theres no reason Justin Smith can't do it too. 

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I would be an awful coach because I wouldn't play a guy who can't shoot or dribble on the perimeter. Ok Joe. Just because someone is the size of a perimeter player doesn't mean they should be one. You didn't answer my question. How many 3s in the NBA can't shoot or dribble? 
Archie's job is to coach the IU basketball team. If he's playing players in roles because that's what the NBA wants and not because it's what's best for the team then he's not doing his job. Tom Crean "helped guys get to the NBA." He still got fired because he didn't win. 
We have two players on our team with realistic NBA hopes: Jerome Hunter and Trayce Jackson-Davis. Could other players end up making it? Sure. But it'd be a long shot. No one has said Smith shouldn't "work on his game". But if he's out there hoisting up threes every game we're in trouble. 

Archie’s job is to coach the team. And part of that is helping Smith succeed at IU and beyond IU.


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2 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:


Archie’s job is to coach the team. And part of that is helping Smith succeed at IU and beyond IU.


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Yes, and Smith will be most successful at IU if he plays a role that fits his skillset. 

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17 minutes ago, lillurk said:

Why are some folks assuming players can’t improve as shooters? He doesn’t have to be Klay Thompson, he needs to hit like 34% to be a demonstrably better player.

Only two rotation players on last year's team shot 34%. He would need to improve his career percentage by 10 percent to become a 34% three point shooter. He's a career 58% from the line. Anything is possible, but it seems very unlikely. Players can improve as shooters, but it's not just a matter of practicing shooting all the time. It's not like these guys don't practice shooting all the time. Some guys just aren't good at it.

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Why are some folks assuming players can’t improve as shooters? He doesn’t have to be Klay Thompson, he needs to hit like 34% to be a demonstrably better player.

We are talking about a 50% free throw shooter. How many free throw shooters improved their 3 pt shooting 13% from the year before? Come on man. Vic was a 75% free throw shooter going from 20-44%. There is a reason that was possible. Free throw shooting is the easiest form of mechanics and repeatability. If he can’t do that? I don’t expect him to improve from three 13% or there to be any chance. Let alone in a season where the 3 is more difficult from one year to the next.

Why are some folks assuming he can improve? Vic had many telling signs he could improve. Justin has 0 of those. He has not improved at any level of his shooting over his first two years. Sorry that isn’t chipper enough for some. He could still play a huge role on a good team. I personally would prefer seeing his free throw numbers improve along with his motor. That would do more for this team than moving his percentage from 22-34% (won’t happen). But I am sure with him averaging taking .9 3 per game that additional .1 made per game is the difference between making the tournament or not. So every 10 games that gets us 3 points back. Every game he is leaving a point at the line on average. Sometimes the simplest things will make you a better squad.


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Yes, and Smith will be most successful at IU if he plays a role that fits his skillset. 

His skill set is slashing and defense. It isn’t banging down low and working on the block with his back to the basket. But if he wants to work on his shooting why should we as fans disparage him? We should be excited that he’s motivated and willing to work on a part of his game that he knows isn’t good enough.


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Yes, and Smith will be most successful at IU if he plays a role that fits his skillset. 

Agreed and it’s not Archie’s job to fit a square peg into a round hole. It’s his job to win. I don’t doubt Justin is trying to improve his 3 this summer. I also won’t be surprised when his minutes are dramatically lowered when he still struggles to do the things we need to win. He is an upperclassmen. We need him to be a leader for this program. Not himself.


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50 minutes ago, Loaded Chicken Sandwich said:


His skill set is slashing and defense. It isn’t banging down low and working on the block with his back to the basket. But if he wants to work on his shooting why should we as fans disparage him? We should be excited that he’s motivated and willing to work on a part of his game that he knows isn’t good enough.


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Who he is saying he shouldn't work on his shooting?  The guy shot 50% from the line, the easiest shot in the game, not working on his shooting would be gross negligence and say very little of him as a player.  We also have to be realistic though, a guy that only shoots 50% at the stripe probably isn't going to make a big jump from 3.  If he wants to work on shooting, and the numbers say he'd better, he should start at the free throw line.

Far too often last year he seemed to be stuck in neutral, just finding a way to keep his motor up would be an improvement.

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1 hour ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Only two rotation players on last year's team shot 34%. He would need to improve his career percentage by 10 percent to become a 34% three point shooter. He's a career 58% from the line. Anything is possible, but it seems very unlikely. Players can improve as shooters, but it's not just a matter of practicing shooting all the time. It's not like these guys don't practice shooting all the time. Some guys just aren't good at it.

This is fair — shooting development is one of my specific concerns under Archie so far. I think there are obvious mechanical changes Smith could make to his jumper. He shot better from 2, 3, and the line (67%) as a frosh. And I guess I believe shooting is a “natural” talent less than some.

Food for thought: the difference between Smith’s sophomore 3p% and 34% was only 4 makes. That doesn’t seem crazy at all! I think the difference goes a long way to keeping defenses honest (recall the OSU game at SSAH) and that’s a modest increase.

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1 hour ago, mdn82 said:


We are talking about a 50% free throw shooter. How many free throw shooters improved their 3 pt shooting 13% from the year before? Come on man. Vic was a 75% free throw shooter going from 20-44%. There is a reason that was possible. Free throw shooting is the easiest form of mechanics and repeatability. If he can’t do that? I don’t expect him to improve from three 13% or there to be any chance. Let alone in a season where the 3 is more difficult from one year to the next.

Why are some folks assuming he can improve? Vic had many telling signs he could improve. Justin has 0 of those. He has not improved at any level of his shooting over his first two years. Sorry that isn’t chipper enough for some. He could still play a huge role on a good team. I personally would prefer seeing his free throw numbers improve along with his motor. That would do more for this team than moving his percentage from 22-34% (won’t happen). But I am sure with him averaging taking .9 3 per game that additional .1 made per game is the difference between making the tournament or not. So every 10 games that gets us 3 points back. Every game he is leaving a point at the line on average. Sometimes the simplest things will make you a better squad.


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As I said in my reply to @Hoosierfan2017, this is about keeping defenses honest (for Smith and his teammates) as much as the actual made 3s. You’re cherry-picking on your VO comparison: as frosh Smith actually shot better than Vic on FTs by 6%.

I’m not making some case that Smith 2019 = VO 2012; no one is. I’m saying that writing him off is premature and that players add skills or improve, and it isn’t always linear. A guy who had a rough year shooting the ball can improve and/or bounce back.

In the big picture, I’ll add that at this point in his career, the things that would makes Smith more attractive to the NBA are things that would help IU.

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As I said in my reply to [mention=4205]Hoosierfan2017[/mention], this is about keeping defenses honest (for Smith and his teammates) as much as the actual made 3s. You’re cherry-picking on your VO comparison: as frosh Smith actually shot better than Vic on FTs by 6%. I’m not making some case that Smith 2019 = VO 2012; no one is. I’m saying that writing him off is premature and that players add skills or improve, and it isn’t always linear. A guy who had a rough year shooting the ball can improve and/or bounce back. In the big picture, I’ll add that at this point in his career, the things that would makes Smith more attractive to the NBA are things that would help IU. 

 

 

That’s where I’ll disagree. The things you think will improve his NBA stock and help IU I don’t. His ability to throw up 3s will not happen here. He is shooting 1 per game. Like you said 4 more per game makes that big of a difference. No NBA scout is going to care he made 4 more shots throughout a season.  If you watched his form during warmups or during a game it does not feel normal for him at all. I will also disagree with you on your assertion to HF that shooting isn’t a “natural” thing. I just don’t know how to explain that differently but it just is once you get your mechanics set. If you are a Junior in college having that many issues getting that feel you will have issues going forward due to habits. The dude was airballing free throws. Yet we expect him to improve in a year where the line gets back? I have been called a sunshine pumper for years. But dude I can’t even find a spin on this to have any semblance of positivity or any reason to think him hitting 4 more 3’s in a season would remotely help him or this team.

 

Edit: I did not cherry pick my Vic comparison. It wasn’t even my comparison. That was Joes comparison. Joe discussed his sophomore to junior jump. I am not bringing freshman numbers into an argument when they weren’t the one discussed. Why would I? Justin clearly regressed as a sophomore. Archie has never been a coach to have players improve their shooting. Why should I expect it to be that way in this scenario?

 

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Maybe everyone should wait till next Tuesday’s preseason game and let CAM and staff coach the team and see how players have developed and are utilized before saying how they will be utilized.

 

 

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Dude this is kind of the purpose of these boards and have been since day 1. As much as I think it’s crazy to say Justin needs to be on the outside (and in the same thread say he is a slasher?), this is the place for that. So I politely disagree we should wait to discuss how WE would utilize Justin Smith. Plus we will learn very little next Tuesday on how CAM will use him. He could come out next week and shoot 5 3’s only to not shoot any in the month of November. Or vice versa. It’s a scrimmage.

 

 

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Maybe everyone should wait till next Tuesday’s preseason game and let CAM and staff coach the team and see how players have developed and are utilized before saying how they will be utilized.


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That would make too much sense.

Smith should be working on his shooting no matter what, just like everybody else on this team. If he can hit enough 3s to make people guard him out there, that's great as it adds another scoring threat and brings a big out to clear space in the lane. If he can't hit the 3, then he either won't play, or he will be spending a lot of time near the hoop. He's had terrible form, so if they're able to fix that, I don't think it's wild to think he can become a decent shooter. If his shot looks the same as last year he has not shot. Either way, this team has depth at the 3/4 assuming Hunter can provide good minutes. Archie doesn't have to continue running him out there like last year when the only other options were Fitzner or Forrester.


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Dude this is kind of the purpose of these boards and have been since day 1. As much as I think it’s crazy to say Justin needs to be on the outside (and in the same thread say he is a slasher?), this is the place for that. So I politely disagree we should wait to discuss how WE would utilize Justin Smith. Plus we will learn very little next Tuesday on how CAM will use him. He could come out next week and shoot 5 3’s only to not shoot any in the month of November. Or vice versa. It’s a scrimmage.
 
 
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I get it but this Smith debate has been going on for months. It’s the same argument over and over. The fact is unless you’ve been to practice nobody knows if his skills have developed at all so everyone is arguing hypotheticals to back their argument.


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