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Hovadipo

NIT Game Thread - IU vs. St. Francis (PA) | 3/19 @ 7PM(ET) on ESPN

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25 minutes ago, Josh said:

Wow!  That escalated quickly. 

Actually, I was trying to help you out.  You get push back for being a broken record.  If you continue to be one, you'll continue to receive it.

Mea culpa if that was your intent.  You know what they say about email/text etc.   You might consider something other than a straw man comment like "if ______. you'd be ______"  if that's really what you're doing, but if that was your intent I apologize.

That said, if we're talking about broken records, you and a handful of others have been on me about "style" for years.   And since it's the same few guys over and over, all I can interpret by that is it's a personal thing because I haven't heard from mods or anyone else.  So is it a personal thing?  If so...as I said, it's a free chat board and there are more important things than some dude's style to worry about.  That's my 2 cents.

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37 minutes ago, Free Jurkin! said:

I think that's fair, but I think your bar for Devonte to have a good game is higher than for other players on the team. I could be wrong, but that's the way it comes off. 

If everyone's bar for success were the same, this world would be very boring.   I thought last night, for example, he had some really good moments and made some plays that helped the team.  I also thought he made - and think he makes every game - several plays that hurt, too and I think that matters against better teams.  So, if he is to be relied on next season, my initial point was he needs to limit "bad DeVonte."    We've proven over 3 seasons what we are with him on the team, so his development is part of the necessary changes.

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If everyone's bar for success were the same, this world would be very boring.   I thought last night, for example, he had some really good moments and made some plays that helped the team.  I also thought he made - and think he makes every game - several plays that hurt, too and I think that matters against better teams.  So, if he is to be relied on next season, my initial point was he needs to limit "bad DeVonte."    We've proven over 3 seasons what we are with him on the team, so his development is part of the necessary changes.


I'm not saying your bar is too high in general. I just don't think you evaluate Devonte by the same standards that you evaluate everybody else on the team. You're harder on him than anybody else. Yes, you applauded his play at the end of the season, but it's impossible to criticize those games. His efficiency was incredible.

Yes, I would love good Devonte without bad Devonte. That would make him the best player on the team. But even if he just gets marginally better over the off-season he's still a valuable player because he can flash on offense, plays good defense and is a good rebounder for a guard


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8 minutes ago, Free Jurkin! said:

 


I'm not saying your bar is too high in general. I just don't think you evaluate Devonte by the same standards that you evaluate everybody else on the team. You're harder on him than anybody else. Yes, you applauded his play at the end of the season, but it's impossible to criticize those games. His efficiency was incredible.

Yes, I would love good Devonte without bad Devonte. That would make him the best player on the team. But even if he just gets marginally better over the off-season he's still a valuable player because he can flash on offense, plays good defense and is a good rebounder for a guard


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I don't think anyone on our team makes the consistent number of poor decisions he makes and has for 3 seasons.  I'm generally not hard on freshmen because they're freshmen.     Romeo was disappointing as hell this season for myriad reasons, but DeVonte hasn't fixed what's wrong in 3 seasons.  Who else should I be equally hard on?   

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Devote Green's solid play is one of the reasons for IU getting back on track at the end of the year. He almost bailed IU out against Ohio State with 26 points. And, St. Francis' lead would have been even greater without Devonte's 3-point shooting the first half.

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I don't think anyone on our team makes the consistent number of poor decisions he makes and has for 3 seasons.  I'm generally not hard on freshmen because they're freshmen.     Romeo was disappointing as hell this season for myriad reasons, but DeVonte hasn't fixed what's wrong in 3 seasons.  Who else should I be equally hard on?   


You should be equally hard on basically everybody except Morgan. Green was the 3rd leading scorer and led the team in assists and steals per game. For all your complaints about his bad shots, he led the guards in effective field goal percentage. Yes he had too many turnovers, but he was still one of our best players


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I’ve been pretty hard on both Devonte and Justin. I think they both add value. I’m just not sure they would be asked to do as much if we had other players that had the same experience and talent. I would rather both of them come off the bench on a good IU team.


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Am I the only one who dont care if old friend likes green or not? Green is part of this team and by far not the laziest or least effective. I get both sides. Fact is we needed green this season and without him we were probably worse than we are but yes he makes terrible decisions and half his shots you couldn't make twice which his why he is inconsistent imo.

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1 hour ago, Free Jurkin! said:

 


You should be equally hard on basically everybody except Morgan. Green was the 3rd leading scorer and led the team in assists and steals per game. For all your complaints about his bad shots, he led the guards in effective field goal percentage. Yes he had too many turnovers, but he was still one of our best players


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You're cherry picking.  So what if he was the 3rd leading scorer?  So what if you can boil down a few stats to polish his resume?   The kid gives away 5-6 possessions every game and it matters.  Nobody else does that.   Nobody else dribbles between his legs and off his foot.  Nobody else consistently tries to do things he can't do. (And that's the point, really)

You want me to get on Durham for missing shots?  Phinisee for not recovering  (or being able to see) from a concussion fast enough?  I got on Smith too because he spent over half the season being lazy, and I stopped when that stopped.  Just like I complimented Green when he had a better, more complete game without the hero plays and bad decisions. 

You're telling me you watched this season and didn't see Green take multiple bad (selfish, poorly timed, quick, not his best,....name your word) shots in just about every game?  You didn't see the consistent wrap passes that take too long, give defense time to adjust, and get stolen?   You didn't see careless passes or hero plays that ended up in turnovers for touchdowns?   You want me to be hard on other players for what??   

My hangup with basketball players is ball security.  Take good shots and value the ball.  That's MY approach.  And in coaching for over 20 years, it seems to work.  Maybe you look solely at certain numbers and ignore others?   Your last sentence is half right.   He had too many turnovers (and bad shots are turnovers).  I don't agree at all he was one of our best players.  We needed him because we literally have nobody else.  But...he lost a starting spot to a freshman for a reason.

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I’ve been pretty hard on both Devonte and Justin. I think they both add value. I’m just not sure they would be asked to do as much if we had other players that had the same experience and talent. I would rather both of them come off the bench on a good IU team.


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I would prefer we had the talent where they both come off the bench too, but that was unfortunately not the case this year. I think Green should continue to come off the bench next year even though he's one of our better guards because I think he gets into the game better after there is already a bit of a flow. Hopefully Smith makes some strides and improves his outside shot, but it wouldn't shock me if Race passes him with a healthy off-season. That concussion killed any chance of taking a step forward during the season


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You're cherry picking.  So what if he was the 3rd leading scorer?  So what if you can boil down a few stats to polish his resume?   The kid gives away 5-6 possessions every game and it matters.  Nobody else does that.   Nobody else dribbles between his legs and off his foot.  Nobody else consistently tries to do things he can't do. (And that's the point, really)

You want me to get on Durham for missing shots?  Phinisee for not recovering  (or being able to see) from a concussion fast enough?  I got on Smith too because he spent over half the season being lazy, and I stopped when that stopped.  Just like I complimented Green when he had a better, more complete game without the hero plays and bad decisions. 

You're telling me you watched this season and didn't see Green take multiple bad (selfish, poorly timed, quick, not his best,....name your word) shots in just about every game?  You didn't see the consistent wrap passes that take too long, give defense time to adjust, and get stolen?   You didn't see careless passes or hero plays that ended up in turnovers for touchdowns?   You want me to be hard on other players for what??   

My hangup with basketball players is ball security.  Take good shots and value the ball.  That's MY approach.  And in coaching for over 20 years, it seems to work.  Maybe you look solely at certain numbers and ignore others?   Your last sentence is half right.   He had too many turnovers (and bad shots are turnovers).  I don't agree at all he was one of our best players.  We needed him because we literally have nobody else.  But...he lost a starting spot to a freshman for a reason.

 

I'm just telling you that the data doesn't back up your argument, and the eye test is very misleading. What other stats would you like to point to? I basically just listed every offensive stat while conceding that turnovers are a little higher than I would like. He's above average in basically everything except turnovers, and he wasn't as much of a disaster there as you claim (he's averaged an even 2/game over the last 2 years. Youay see a bunch more, but I'll go with the official scorer). There's very little evidence to back up your claim that Green was especially detrimental compared to others. If he's only taking 7 shots a game, and 3 are going in, it's statistically impossible for him to take a bunch of bad shots every game. You keep saying 5-6 possessions a game, and that's not even close to true.

 

Rob is more careful with the ball. Devonte makes more happen. Both are and will be important for the team as they bring different skill sets on offense and play good defense. The starting spot is pretty meaningless as they played pretty much equal minutes.

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Free Jurkin! said:

 


I'm just telling you that the data doesn't back up your argument, and the eye test is very misleading. What other stats would you like to point to? He's above average in basically everything except turnovers, and he wasn't as much of a disaster there as you claim (he's averaged an even 2/game over the last 2 years). There's very little evidence to back up your claim that Green was especially detrimental compared to others. If he's only taking 7 shots a game, and 3 are going in, it's statistically impossible for him to take a bunch of bad shots every game. You keep saying 5-6 possessions a game, and that's not even close to true.

Rob is more careful with the ball. Devonte makes more happen. Both are and will be important for the team as they bring different skill sets on offense and play good defense. The starting spot is pretty meaningless as they played pretty much equal minutes.


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You're giving me your opinion.  You're not telling me anything, and the data does back up my argument...see below.  I disagree with you.  Green making things happen ends badly at least as often as it ends well and on a better team, I don't think he'd see the floor.   You and I see him very differently, which is fine; but as much as you think I'm wrong, I think you are.   If you're eliminating the eyeball test, you're arbitrarily eliminating reality.  5-6 possessions a game is not only true, it's probably conservative, FJ.

Let's agree to disagree because it really doesn't matter, but watch the next game objectively.  And I'll leave you with this since you're a numbers guy and think I'm not close  : 

Last night he was 4-13 from the floor and was credited with 2 turnovers.   I'll submit if stats were really accurate that last strip/steal was a turnover and not a blocked shot; but whatever...   Not all of the shots he missed were bad ones, but at least 3 were.  Plus 2 TO's...that's at least 5.  Led the team in turnovers.

Against OSU, he was a key factor in bring us closer... no doubt.  But he had 3 TO's in the first half, 4 overall, and missed 6 shots; one of them a ridiculous running floater with 28 seconds on the shot clock.  Even if the other 5 misses were all good shots, that's still 5.  Led the team in turnovers.

Games before that he had a stretch where he was really good.  Sound with the ball and played within the offense very well...I'll grant that and I made an effort to say so.  

Against Iowa?   2-8 from the floor; 0-5 from the 3 point line and 2 turnovers.   I remember at least 2 bad shots that night so let's say that's all...and that's 4 at least.  Led the team in turnovers.    We lost in OT.

Purdue   1-7 from the floor and 3 turnovers.  Led the team in turnovers.   We lost  by 2.

Minnesota   1-5 from the floor.  2 turnovers.  Whole team awful...not his fault we lost at all.

Ohio State  3-9 from the floor.   2 turnovers.  Led the team in turnovers.  We lost by 3.

Iowa   1-5 from the floor.  4 turnovers.  Led the team in turnovers.    We lost by 5

Really?  Not even close to true?   Yeah...it is very close to true.

I will never understand why you and others don't think his possession giveaways matter or don't acknowledge them as a consistent problem.  He was ABSOLUTELY better for a 4-game stretch.    So much so I came out and proactively said so.  But come on now...I'm not making my numbers up and the eyeball test matters if you're watching objectively,

 

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8 hours ago, Josh said:

You're absolutely entitled to your opinion.  The way you're going about it is the problem.

Many times during this season I've voiced my displeasure with our coach.  This team either lacks motivation or preparation every game.  To me, that's a direct reflection of the coach.  So I voiced that.  Many many times.  I became a broken record.  I was called out for it, and they were right.

You sir, are a broken record also.  As was stated above, Green could have a quadruple double and you'd be on here with your record constantly skipping.  I think that's the issue many are trying to point out.  For me?  Romeo makes the worst decisions on the team, not Green.

Romeo averages 2.1 turnovers in 34.1 minutes per game and shoots 27.2% (34 for 125) from three.

Green averages 2.2 turnovers in 24.5 minutes per game and shoots 41.6% (42 for 101) from three. 

By the minute, Romeo has far fewer turnovers. 

By the minute, Green has a lot more assists (78 total) than Romeo (75 total).  I bring up assists because it makes sense that a player will make more errant passes if his role is more of a playmaker for the rest of the team.  Romeo's primary role was to be a playmaker for himself.  Still, Romeo sometimes plays soft and coughs up the ball with his butterfingers...and his missed 3-point shots are in their own way turnovers too if Indiana doesn't get an offensive rebound.

I wish Romeo more often utilized his biggest strength (in my opinion), his mid-range game (he is 44.8% inside the arc vs 27.2% behind it).  He's a great finisher, but he is careless with the ball on some of his drives and gets blocked far more often than he would on a mid-range shot.  If he took a couple steps into his range and popped, then his scoring would have likely been more prolific than it was and his turnovers would have been lower. 

I wish Green took more three point shots, as his percentage from beyond the arc (41.6) is actually slightly better than inside it (39.9).  If he took more shots within the flow of the game and stepped into his shot, then his percentage from outside would have likely been better than it was.  

Romeo has 25 steals, 26 blocks, and 172 rebounds on the season.  Green has 32 steals, 12 blocks, and 78 rebounds on the season.  Romeo averages 16.5 points per game and Green averages 9.0 points per game.  Green is a junior and Romeo is only a freshman.  It's hard to say who makes up for their mistakes more.  One player playing 10 minutes more or less per game than another makes determining such a thing difficult, as does the different role each plays. 

Just from an eye test, my eyes tell me both can be extremely frustrating.  I like them both on their best days, but they aren't playing to their strengths as much as I would like to see...and both can be careless with the ball.  One thing I've noticed is Romeo standing around a lot.  Green seems more active.  Maybe if I rewatched all the games looking only at hustle, then I would have a different opinion...and, an argument could be made that Romeo's patience (which is seemingly better than Green's much of the time) makes him seem less active.  But, exclusively from an eye test, Green seems to give more effort.

I know someone is trying to add non-turnovers to the turnovers column, but if that's the case then missed three-point shots not rebounded could also be considered a "non-turnover...turnover".  And in that case, Romeo might have averaged more turnovers than Green.  Someone is trying to say any shot Green takes and misses is a turnover, yet everyone else is accused of turning the ball over only when they are credited for a turnover on a stat sheet.  If one adds a turnover to a player's stats for every shot he takes and misses while no one else is faulted for a missed shot, then of course that faulted player will have more turnovers every single game.  Green missed 175 total shots.  Romeo missed 309 total shots.  I'm not going to do the math.

I know your point wasn't a Romeo vs Green dispute, and I'm certainly not bringing all this up in response solely to your post.  I was just looking up stats to compare because you made me wonder.  While doing so, I also noticed Justin Smith shoots 22.6% from three (7 for 31), which contradicts what someone else posted earlier (that he was a member of our best outside shooters club).  Only Zach McRoberts has a lower three point percentage (21.1% on 4 of 19 shooting) on the team (even including Damezi Anderson).  

 

My opinion...

Justin Smith should do the majority of his scoring down low (unless he is lit on fire like the game against Michigan State).

Romeo should do the majority of his scoring mid-range and driving to draw contact when an open lane presents itself.

Green should do the majority of his scoring from behind the arc.

The entire team needs to be more careful with the ball and at least attempt to feed the post before they jack threes for 10 possessions in a row (again, unless someone is lit on fire like Green was against Ohio State).

 

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17 hours ago, ray said:

I noticed no one posted this, so I wanted to share.  I'm fully on board that Deron Davis is committed to remaining a Hoosier next year and leave on a high note.  This interview, much like an interview I posted earlier in the season (after the first Michigan State game), makes me excited to see Deron finally play a full and healthy season next year.  He WANTS to be the leader, and I think he will be.  For as tough of a path as he has had, he has always carried himself with a mental toughness and a humor to get through it all.  I hope his summer goes as well as he plans and he comes back as a dominant (and healthy) force inside for Indiana next year. 

He also mentions why he wasn't in the game during the second half...yet another setback, although this time it seems to be minor.

 

Where can I get one of those cool chairs!?  :-)

 

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On 3/20/2019 at 1:37 PM, Old Friend said:

Fair enough then.  But....I would ask those who say things like "I'd trash the kid if he had a monster game and focus on the turnovers" to be fair with me too.  Just last week I made a specific point to give props to the kid for a good game; so this can be a 2-way street, yes?  

If it takes someone hitting 8 of 10 from three for you to say something good about them....

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30 minutes ago, brumdog45 said:

If it takes someone hitting 8 of 10 from three for you to say something good about them....

Go ahead and finish that.  Don't stop there.  Continue with the idiocy.  Did I miss something, or did he hit 8 of 10 last week when I complimented him?

Hell, you probably think his 2 week span when he was 8-37 from the floor with 13 turnovers was an anomaly, right?  At least those are real numbers.  Good Lord.....why on Earth do you or anyone else care if I love the kid's game or not?  

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