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Hovadipo

NIT Game Thread - IU vs. St. Francis (PA) | 3/19 @ 7PM(ET) on ESPN

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We need to use him better. He should be our catch and shoot guy. Stop using him to run the offense. His only decision should be should he shoot or shoot. 


I don't think he should be limited to just shooting, but I agree he's not best served running the offense in a PG role. He's our shiftiest ball handler and our best passer. He gets guys easy shots more than anybody on the team. He's just not always a great decision maker, and so I'd much prefer Rob to be the primary ball handler. But using him like Nick Zeisloft is a wasted his skill

Green needs to improve his mid range. He's pretty good at getting in the lane, but he's not a great finisher at the rim. If he can pull up in between he can be dangerous.


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I don't think he should be limited to just shooting, but I agree he's not best served running the offense in a PG role. He's our shiftiest ball handler and our best passer. He gets guys easy shots more than anybody on the team. He's just not always a great decision maker, and so I'd much prefer Rob to be the primary ball handler. But using him like Nick Zeisloft is a wasted his skill

Green needs to improve his mid range. He's pretty good at getting in the lane, but he's not a great finisher at the rim. If he can pull up in between he can be dangerous.


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There were several possessions last night where he got in the lane and shot that floater. He made one but missed several. That’s the area he needs to stop and pop (or dump it off).


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1 minute ago, HoosierAloha said:


There were several possessions last night where he got in the lane and shot that floater. He made one but missed several. That’s the area he needs to stop and pop (or dump it off).


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Agreed. Perhaps his choice should be either shoot the 3 or drive for the floater. 

He maybe our best passer too often are his passes Ill advised. 

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2 hours ago, HoosierX said:

He could have 30 points, 12 assists, 8 steals, 5 blocks, and 1 TO and you would focus on his TO.

Hhhmmm....this might be true...except just last week, he had a pretty good game and I specifically referenced it.  And his numbers weren't anywhere close to these.    So I have 2 conclusions :

1)  You come here to fight.  To stir the pot.  To troll.  Because this adds nothing and it's just a stupid, brainless post designed to troll.  Or..

2)  You're okay with turnovers and bad shots as "part of the game."  Which is sad.    So which is it?

In a league where there are close games every night, he gives away 5-6 possessions every game.   If you watch games...you know that as well as I do and if you don't acknowledge it, you're as guilty of bias as you say I am.   Last night...against a bad team, he gave away at least 6 possessions.  Do the good things he does erase those?  What do you think a good coach would tell him?  Why do you think he lost his starting job to a smaller, weaker freshman?   Does that matter against good teams? 

He's led the team in turnovers/minutes played the last 2 seasons and his freshman year had a negative A;TO ratio; all while shooting under 40% for his career; due in large part to bad or selfish shots.   That's just a simple truth.  So yeah...because it's a consistent problem, it gets mentioned.  Especially when he may be counted on to lead next season.  You think fans will tolerate another 18-15 season and watch his act give possessions away every night?

 Maybe you and I watch games differently.   Which is fine.

 

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3 hours ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

I like Green. I hope he's back next year. He makes dumb mistakes sometimes, and he can be incredibly frustrating, but he's one of the few players who always plays hard and acts like he cares about winning.. 

All I was saying above is he has to lose "bad DeVonte."   When he plays well and lets things come to him, he is really good.   The problem with him is we get the good and the bad within the same game.    He made some shots last night for example.   Got into the paint.  Rebounded okay and made some really solid passes.

He also threw 2 careless alley-oop passes, both of which would have been turnovers had his team mates not cleaned him up; was credited with 2 turnovers which should have been 3 because the last strip/steal was counted as a blocked shot; he took too many shots and several "bad shots," and he just needs to be more sound with the ball in his hands.   Get rid of the consistent carelessness and he's fine.  

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7 minutes ago, Old Friend said:

All I was saying above is he has to lose "bad DeVonte."   When he plays well and lets things come to him, he is really good.   The problem with him is we get the good and the bad within the same game.    He made some shots last night for example.   Got into the paint.  Rebounded okay and made some really solid passes.

He also threw 2 careless alley-oop passes, both of which would have been turnovers had his team mates not cleaned him up; was credited with 2 turnovers which should have been 3 because the last strip/steal was counted as a blocked shot; he took too many shots and several "bad shots," and he just needs to be more sound with the ball in his hands.   Get rid of the consistent carelessness and he's fine.  

He's an enigma. The talent is there. He can do some things that not many guys on our team can do. But then sometimes he makes mistakes that a kid sitting in the bleachers wouldn't make. Sometimes we see the good and the bad on back-to-back plays. I don't know why he's so Jekyll and Hyde. 

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6 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

He's an enigma. The talent is there. He can do some things that not many guys on our team can do. But then sometimes he makes mistakes that a kid sitting in the bleachers wouldn't make. Sometimes we see the good and the bad on back-to-back plays. I don't know why he's so Jekyll and Hyde. 

Mental.  100% mental.   Selfish sometimes and thinks he's better than he is.  Comes from growing up on the playground and playing against his brother.   That brand of basketball and college/Big Ten basketball are different things and he is a playground player at heart.   I get it....but at some point you have to learn...don't you?

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1 hour ago, Brass Cannon said:

Agreed. Perhaps his choice should be either shoot the 3 or drive for the floater. 

He maybe our best passer too often are his passes Ill advised. 

I agree that his passes are often ill advised. He'd throw less of them if he wasn't the primary ball handler though, just because he would have the ball less. Also, for as much as we talk about his passing mistakes, he averages 2 TOs per game. That's not great, but it's also not killing us. It feels magnified because many on the board emphasizes each error he makes. I agree that stats don't always tell the story when looking at a box score, but they generally do over the course of a season as a 30 game season smooths out a lot of variance.

He definitely takes some bad shots, but he takes a lot less than Romeo or Justin Smith. That's not to excuse him, but just showing that he's not alone in this. He also only takes 0.5 more shots per game (with greater efficiency) than Rob, who everybody acknowledges is a good decision maker. When the offense bogs down, as it often did, you're going to see a lot more bad shots as guys start pressing. I don't think it's a coincidence that he took a lot fewer bad shots as the rest of the offense improved towards the close of the year. Romeo is obviously a better all around player, but he's a terrible shooter and took a lot more momentum stopping shots than Green. Plus Green is actually a good shooter. I know people on here get upset when he shoots a quick 3, but an open 3 from a 40+% 3 point shooter is a good shot anywhere in the shot clock.

You're never going to get rid of bad Devonte. If you get rid of bad Devonte, you're also going to lose a lot of good Devonte. Part of his value comes in being able to finish shots and passes that nobody else on the team is capable of. That is going to come with mistakes, but he needs to make enough positive plays to offset the negative. That's not to say he can't cut down on the mistakes - he needs to cut out the brain farts, and he can eliminate some of the foolish alley oops - but he's always going to get turnovers trying to thread the needle on a few passes.

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Mental.  100% mental.   Selfish sometimes and thinks he's better than he is.  Comes from growing up on the playground and playing against his brother.   That brand of basketball and college/Big Ten basketball are different things and he is a playground player at heart.   I get it....but at some point you have to learn...don't you?

You make a lot of assumptions about Devonte's motivations. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but I don't think it's wise or fair to attribute negative attributes to a guy like that. He plays hard consistently and works on defense. Those are attributes of a team player. I'm not saying he's not selfish. I don't know. But it seems like we're making a lot of assumptions (and Danny Green is a completely different player)

 

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1 hour ago, Old Friend said:

All I was saying above is he has to lose "bad DeVonte."   When he plays well and lets things come to him, he is really good.   The problem with him is we get the good and the bad within the same game.    He made some shots last night for example.   Got into the paint.  Rebounded okay and made some really solid passes.

He also threw 2 careless alley-oop passes, both of which would have been turnovers had his team mates not cleaned him up; was credited with 2 turnovers which should have been 3 because the last strip/steal was counted as a blocked shot; he took too many shots and several "bad shots," and he just needs to be more sound with the ball in his hands.   Get rid of the consistent carelessness and he's fine.  

You have mentioned the 2 alley-oop passes multiple times... EVERY single pass by every player in a game would be a turnover if their teammate doesn't catch them "Clean them Up".... both were very catch-able passes and both had the opportunity to finish, they didn't but they still caught the pass... those are not turnovers no matter how detrimental that is to your narrative.

We get it... you don't care for him or at least his style of play... 

It is ok for others  (myself included) to have a different opinion on him... I truly believe we would have been a MUCH worse team without him all season long.

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43 minutes ago, Free Jurkin! said:

You make a lot of assumptions about Devonte's motivations. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but I don't think it's wise or fair to attribute negative attributes to a guy like that. He plays hard consistently and works on defense. Those are attributes of a team player. I'm not saying he's not selfish. I don't know. But it seems like we're making a lot of assumptions (and Danny Green is a completely different player)

 

If you've watched how he plays for 3 seasons, you do know.  (Maybe you think it's taboo to say it...I don't)   If you've ever seen playground basketball in New York, you do know.  If you have played competitively against younger brothers of good players, you do know.   Hero plays and careless passes speak.  As do bad shots.   I never mentioned his motivation for anything.  You can discuss without putting words in my mouth.   Nor did I say he wasn't in some aspects a team player.   You've either seen him for 3 years or you haven't.  

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Just now, Str8Hoosiers said:

You have mentioned the 2 alley-oop passes multiple times... EVERY single pass by every player in a game would be a turnover if their teammate doesn't catch them "Clean them Up".... both were very catch-able passes and both had the opportunity to finish, they didn't but they still caught the pass... those are not turnovers no matter how detrimental that is to your narrative.

We get it... you don't care for him or at least his style of play... 

It is ok for others  (myself included) to have a different opinion on him... I truly believe we would have been a MUCH worse team without him all season long.

In bold Because we were left with just two guards if he didn't.   You and I see two different players, which is okay; but the narrative isn't incorrect unless you are willing to gloss over the bad shots and careless plays.   The problem is not those plays specifically, so arguing specific plays is pointless.  The problem is the consistency of those plays.  Over 3 seasons.  But...both alley oop passes were high risk; and weren't necessary.  (And neither pass was caught.  Both resulted in baskets by players trailing the play.)  Why make that pass?   He tries to hit the home run way too frequently and against good teams, it hurts more than it helps.

You're a smart guy.   Did you really watch him this season and disagree that he gives away at least 5-6 possessions in every game?    He lost his job to Phinissee for a reason.  He played just 11 minutes (while healthy) in a recent game for a reason; and I will submit he played because we truly had nobody else.  No player is all good or all bad.   And no.  I don't care for his style of play and I'm not wrong any more than you are.  

 

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2 Guards? Romeo, Al, Damezi, Rob... that is 4... and if Green wasn't here maybe we replace him with another...

The narrative that he is ALL bad all the time is incorrect... the narrative that he has so many wasted possessions and more turnovers than the stat sheets say is incorrect. Yes I have watched him play every game for the past 3 seasons and yet I still get pumped when he is in the game and doing his thing (sometimes I get mad at a play etc). Lots of plays/passes are high risk, but every pass he makes you believe he should just do a simple bounce pass... every shot for a 40% shooter is not a bad shot or a wasted possession.

I agree that there is a reason that he lost the job to Phinisee however I don't think it is the reason you think it is. I believe there were some very bad things going on behind the scenes and that is what made him lose minutes or the starting job, not his overall play.

Nobody said you are wrong for your opinion on his style of play.. we can all agree we can all have our own opinions on that.

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13 minutes ago, Old Friend said:

In bold Because we were left with just two guards if he didn't.   You and I see two different players, which is okay; but the narrative isn't incorrect unless you are willing to gloss over the bad shots and careless plays.   The problem is not those plays specifically, so arguing specific plays is pointless.  The problem is the consistency of those plays.  Over 3 seasons.  But...both alley oop passes were high risk; and weren't necessary.  (And neither pass was caught.  Both resulted in baskets by players trailing the play.)  Why make that pass?   He tries to hit the home run way too frequently and against good teams, it hurts more than it helps.

You're a smart guy.   Did you really watch him this season and disagree that he gives away at least 5-6 possessions in every game?    He lost his job to Phinissee for a reason.  He played just 11 minutes (while healthy) in a recent game for a reason; and I will submit he played because we truly had nobody else.  No player is all good or all bad.   And no.  I don't care for his style of play and I'm not wrong any more than you are.  

 

You're absolutely entitled to your opinion.  The way you're going about it is the problem.

Many times during this season I've voiced my displeasure with our coach.  This team either lacks motivation or preparation every game.  To me, that's a direct reflection of the coach.  So I voiced that.  Many many times.  I became a broken record.  I was called out for it, and they were right.

You sir, are a broken record also.  As was stated above, Green could have a quadruple double and you'd be on here with your record constantly skipping.  I think that's the issue many are trying to point out.  For me?  Romeo makes the worst decisions on the team, not Green.

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1 hour ago, Free Jurkin! said:

You make a lot of assumptions about Devonte's motivations. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but I don't think it's wise or fair to attribute negative attributes to a guy like that. He plays hard consistently and works on defense. Those are attributes of a team player. I'm not saying he's not selfish. I don't know. But it seems like we're making a lot of assumptions (and Danny Green is a completely different player)

 

I agree Old Friend took it a step too far there.

 

Old Friend, you've stated your position time after time. Everyone knows how you feel. There might be some that disagree with you. You need to learn to deal with it. Repeating yourself, and trashing this kid, won't make people suddenly agree with you. 

 

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Just now, Josh said:

You're absolutely entitled to your opinion.  The way you're going about it is the problem.

Many times during this season I've voiced my displeasure with our coach.  This team either lacks motivation or preparation every game.  To me, that's a direct reflection of the coach.  So I voiced that.  Many many times.  I became a broken record.  I was called out for it, and they were right.

You sir, are a broken record also.  As was stated above, Green could have a quadruple double and you'd be on here with your record constantly skipping.  I think that's the issue many are trying to point out.  For me?  Romeo makes the worst decisions on the team, not Green.

In bold above....as I said earlier, this might be right.  Except it isn't.  Last week...yeah...last week...I made it a point to specifically single him out when he had a good game.  So this is a complete load of fabricated crap from you...and whoever "HoosierX" is.  An incorrect assumption because you have a personal problem with me I don't care about even some.   Come at me with fabricated BS to fit your agenda, I'll call you out for it.  And I am.   Sorry I'm not impressed with 4-13 from the floor and 3 turnovers (yeah, yeah...I know.  He was credited for 2,  so let's say 4-12 and 3 TO's with several bad shots.   You're asking me - after watching a 17-15 season with turnovers as a big problem - to just excuse that because you don't want to read it anymore?   Then don't read my posts.  Ignore them,  You have that option, too.

You "like" every post that disagrees with me, so that may be a broken record as well.  Why don't you let me choose the hill I want to die on and stop worrying about it?   This is a free chat board.  You don't have to keep reading....but for some reason..you do.  And I'm still not convinced you're not the same "Josh" who stalked me for years and complained about similar things.   

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9 minutes ago, Stromboli said:

I agree Old Friend took it a step too far there.

 

Old Friend, you've stated your position time after time. Everyone knows how you feel. There might be some that disagree with you. You need to learn to deal with it. Repeating yourself, and trashing this kid, won't make people suddenly agree with you. 

 

Fair enough then.  But....I would ask those who say things like "I'd trash the kid if he had a monster game and focus on the turnovers" to be fair with me too.  Just last week I made a specific point to give props to the kid for a good game; so this can be a 2-way street, yes?  

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30 minutes ago, Old Friend said:

If you've watched how he plays for 3 seasons, you do know.  (Maybe you think it's taboo to say it...I don't)   If you've ever seen playground basketball in New York, you do know.  If you have played competitively against younger brothers of good players, you do know.   Hero plays and careless passes speak.  As do bad shots.   I never mentioned his motivation for anything.  You can discuss without putting words in my mouth.   Nor did I say he wasn't in some aspects a team player.   You've either seen him for 3 years or you haven't.  

I think he's undisciplined, but that is not the same as selfish. And you're just wrong about his volume of bad shots. He takes 7 shots per game and makes 3. Unless all of his misses are bad shots, then he's not taking very many bad shots. People come at you with data, and you continue to say that your eyes tell you otherwise. Your eyes are more likely to involve your biases than data. It's fine if you don't like his style of play. I prefer guys with more upside (Green) to the steady guys who are consistent (Rob), even though I see value in both and understand why people prefer the reverse. I think Rob will eventually become a better player than Green though because I think he will combine consistency with greater upside; he's just not quite there yet, which is fine for a freshman.

However, you keep talking about how Green throws away possessions with bad shots, and the evidence shows that he does not, at least not disproportionately to other guys. He averages 7.4 shots a game. Rob averages 6.7. They play basically the same number of minutes. And Green is a more efficient scorer. If you look at efficiency and points score, this would tell you that Green's shots are more productive than Rob's, and so Rob is actually the one more likely to be taking shots that hurt the offense. An open shot that you don't shoot well is still not a good shot. Green should shoot more than Rob because he's a better shooter. Green gets criticized for taking step back 3s that aren't in the flow of the offense, but the reality is that that's a higher percentage shot than Rob, Juwan, or Romeo taking 3s in the flow of the offense. 

When I defend Green, I often feel like I end up coming off as bashing Rob, which I don't mean to do. I really like Rob and am excited about his potential. I think he was a valuable player this year too, even though he had ups and downs that you would expect from a young PG in a good conference. But I just think that a lot of the love for who Rob is as a player right now gets overblown because he plays the "right" way, and Devonte has a lot of flair to his game. Again, I understand stylistic preferences, but at the end of the day, it's important to look at the data as they help weed out our biases.

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10 minutes ago, Old Friend said:

Fair enough then.  But....I would ask those who say things like "I'd trash the kid if he had a monster game and focus on the turnovers" to be fair with me too.  Just last week I made a specific point to give props to the kid for a good game; so this can be a 2-way street, yes?  

I think that's fair, but I think your bar for Devonte to have a good game is higher than for other players on the team. I could be wrong, but that's the way it comes off. 

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15 minutes ago, Old Friend said:

In bold above....as I said earlier, this might be right.  Except it isn't.  Last week...yeah...last week...I made it a point to specifically single him out when he had a good game.  So this is a complete load of fabricated crap from you...and whoever "HoosierX" is.  An incorrect assumption because you have a personal problem with me I don't care about even some.   Come at me with fabricated BS to fit your agenda, I'll call you out for it.  And I am.   Sorry I'm not impressed with 4-13 from the floor and 3 turnovers (yeah, yeah...I know.  He was credited for 2,  so let's say 4-12 and 3 TO's with several bad shots.   You're asking me - after watching a 17-15 season with turnovers as a big problem - to just excuse that because you don't want to read it anymore?   Then don't read my posts.  Ignore them,  You have that option, too.

You "like" every post that disagrees with me, so that may be a broken record as well.  Why don't you let me choose the hill I want to die on and stop worrying about it?   This is a free chat board.  You don't have to keep reading....but for some reason..you do.  And I'm still not convinced you're not the same "Josh" who stalked me for years and complained about similar things.   

Wow!  That escalated quickly. 

Actually, I was trying to help you out.  You get push back for being a broken record.  If you continue to be one, you'll continue to receive it.

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