Random Archie/Basketball Talk

[Old Friend 8,389]

49 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

Congrats. Many of us watched it. He adapted Matta’s style of play. Improved recruiting while IU was down as did Purdue. Much like every other Butler coach in the last 20 years it was plug and play whether you want to admit that or not.


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As I said, you and I can stop.   We see things differently and for whatever reason, you're finding reason to publicly disagree with about everything I say; but I do have two questions :

1)  What about "Stevens did a whole lot more than adopt what Matta did" are you missing?

2)  So let me get this right.  You believe....seriously.....that all Brad Stevens did was plug and play Matta's system and improve recruiting while Indiana was down?   That Brad Stevens....who was hired from Butler to coach....the Boston Celtics....was nothing more than a product of Matta who added better players?  

I'll avoid further commentary, but wow, dude.

[mdn82 25,456]

As I said, you and I can stop.   We see things differently and for whatever reason, you're finding reason to publicly disagree with about everything I say; but I do have two questions : 1)  What about "Stevens did a whole lot more than adopt what Matta did" are you missing? 2)  So let me get this right.  You believe....seriously.....that all Brad Stevens did was plug and play Matta's system and improve recruiting while Indiana was down?   That Brad Stevens....who was hired from Butler to coach....the Boston Celtics....was nothing more than a product of Matta who added better players?  

I'll avoid further commentary, but wow, dude.

 

 

Just so you know if you truly want me to stop, then stop responding to me. If your sole purpose is to get last word in just say that. You have twice now said we can stop then you decide to write a dissertation. Makes me laugh honestly. Because I am not your wife nor your child. You want respect? Don’t treat everyone like your kid. I am far from it.  

1. What am I missing? Lmao ok.

 

2. I never said that but you are good at putting words in other’s mouths. Let me start with something you always say to those that you disagree with. Reading comprehension would go a long way. Not your agenda. I figure you will understand something you preach.

 

What I did say is there was a Butler way developed on continuity something that you honestly preach about the Indiana way. Which is funny you are arguing that it doesn’t exist then in the next breath scream at the top of your lungs Indiana needs an Indiana guy. I seriously laugh at you making an argument against this for Butler. I never said he wasn’t the best coach out of all of them. I said continuity made the transition smoother. I don’t know how hard that is to comprehend when you are the number 1 person fighting for that at IU.

 

Yes. Wow dude is exactly what I have been thinking for a long time. This is no different.

 

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[Old Friend 8,389]

52 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

Just so you know if you truly want me to stop, then stop responding to me. If your sole purpose is to get last word in just say that. You have twice now said we can stop then you decide to write a dissertation. Makes me laugh honestly. Because I am not your wife nor your child. You want respect? Don’t treat everyone like your kid. I am far from it.  

1. What am I missing? Lmao ok.

 

2. I never said that but you are good at putting words in other’s mouths. Let me start with something you always say to those that you disagree with. Reading comprehension would go a long way. Not your agenda. I figure you will understand something you preach.

 

What I did say is there was a Butler way developed on continuity something that you honestly preach about the Indiana way. Which is funny you are arguing that it doesn’t exist then in the next breath scream at the top of your lungs Indiana needs an Indiana guy. I seriously laugh at you making an argument against this for Butler. I never said he wasn’t the best coach out of all of them. I said continuity made the transition smoother. I don’t know how hard that is to comprehend when you are the number 1 person fighting for that at IU.

 

Yes. Wow dude is exactly what I have been thinking for a long time. This is no different.

 

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Hhhmmm....this started with you responding to ME, so let's make sure we're working from the same template, okay?   Let's start there.  To be clear..YOU.....initially responded....to me.  With me so far?  

Serious question?  What are you missing?   What doesn't make sense to you?  

You said nothing of the sort.  Go back and read. Don't create reality....be accurate and be accountable.  Revisionist history is not in your favor.  I'm done arguing with a guy who acts like a "never Trumper" with a paper vajina (sp for the sake of the point) taped to his head looking to disagree for the sake of it.   I don't know what happened to you, but at least I know now what I'm dealing with.   We're all frustrated, but you're following me around looking for reasons to disagree; and you're now creating things you "said,": when you didn't.  

So basically you've spent how many months disagreeing with me, now you're telling me you agree with me, but now I disagree with you because you're telling me you said things you didn't say and putting one argument in place of another and insinuating I'm changing course because of it?  

Yep.  Wow, dude.

 

Edit :  Here's what you "said."   What coaching style, both in tempo and offense/defense does Holtman run versus Thad Matta? You know he developed the Butler way right? Stevens was an assistant who adopted his playing style. 

He adapted Matta’s style of play. Improved recruiting while IU was down as did Purdue. Much like every other Butler coach in the last 20 years it was plug and play whether you want to admit that or not. 

So....Brad Stevens was a plug and play guy.  Who improved recruiting....and was subsequently asked to coach...the Boston Celtics.  It's that simple?   Good Lord.

 

[Walking Boot of Doom 18,170]

Ohp and I thought we were getting somewhere.


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[coonhounds 8,690]

I like it better when iu is winning and recruiting is going good. This board is so much better. Please archie turn this thing around!

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[mdn82 25,456]

Hhhmmm....this started with you responding to ME, so let's make sure we're working from the same template, okay?   Let's start there.  To be clear..YOU.....initially responded....to me.  With me so far?   Serious question?  What are you missing?   What doesn't make sense to you?   You said nothing of the sort.  Go back and read. Don't create reality....be accurate and be accountable.  Revisionist history is not in your favor.  I'm done arguing with a guy who acts like a "never Trumper" with a paper vajina (sp for the sake of the point) taped to his head looking to disagree for the sake of it.   I don't know what happened to you, but at least I know now what I'm dealing with.   We're all frustrated, but you're following me around looking for reasons to disagree; and you're now creating things you "said,": when you didn't.   So basically you've spent how many months disagreeing with me, now you're telling me you agree with me, but now I disagree with you because you're telling me you said things you didn't say and putting one argument in place of another and insinuating I'm changing course because of it?  

Yep.  Wow, dude.

 

Edit :  Here's what you "said."   What coaching style, both in tempo and offense/defense does Holtman run versus Thad Matta? You know he developed the Butler way right? Stevens was an assistant who adopted his playing style. 

He adapted Matta’s style of play. Improved recruiting while IU was down as did Purdue. Much like every other Butler coach in the last 20 years it was plug and play whether you want to admit that or not. 

So....Brad Stevens was a plug and play guy.  Who improved recruiting....and was subsequently asked to coach...the Boston Celtics.  It's that simple?   Good Lord.

 

 

 

 

Ok? Who is telling who to end this? Isn’t me GC.  My feelings aren’t as fragile as yours to tell you to stop talking to me. I am saying if I respond to you on a public forum you post on if you don’t want me responding beyond the first time then don’t respond. But I am going to keep replying to anyone and everyone. That’s kind of what this is for.

 

As for you other stuff yes Stevens was a plug and play guy that turned out great. What’s wrong with that Mr I want IU to hire from within because they understand the culture better? I disagree with you on IU when it comes to this, but didn’t think you would be so dense to not understand the comparison. Shocking I was wrong on that one...

 

 

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[Old Friend 8,389]

18 minutes ago, mdn82 said:

Ok? Who is telling who to end this? Isn’t me GC.  My feelings aren’t as fragile as yours to tell you to stop talking to me. I am saying if I respond to you on a public forum you post on if you don’t want me responding beyond the first time then don’t respond. But I am going to keep replying to anyone and everyone. That’s kind of what this is for.

 

As for you other stuff yes Stevens was a plug and play guy that turned out great. What’s wrong with that Mr I want IU to hire from within because they understand the culture better? I disagree with you on IU when it comes to this, but didn’t think you would be so dense to not understand the comparison. Shocking I was wrong on that one...

 

 

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I said we could stop, meaning stop arguing about the basketball piece because we see it differently.  The back and forth is a sport to me, and apparently you as well.   Nice GC reference, too.  That's productive.   Especially given the "didn't think you'd be so dense" comment.   Why make that comment?   To accomplish what?  You said Brad Stevens was a successful plug and play.  If I wanted to comment on density, that'd be a good place to start.

I find it interesting that you accuse me of treating you like my kid when your initial response was "you do realize _______, right?"   Pot?  Meet kettle.   Given your stance above about what this is for, your worries about who does or does not get "the last word" also seems interesting.

I said Stevens was MORE than a plug and play.  Not that I disagreed with you.  Again, what part of that is confusing?  He was also more than a plug and play that worked out great.  The guy is a savant.  There's a reason Danny Ainge called him the best coach in basketball.   I've sat with him in his office at Butler (with Lewis), and I can tell you he is by far the most brilliant basketball mind I've ever been around.   Good, long  story and I walked away wishing he would move to Bloomington the following day.

If your opinion is that Indiana should hire from within their culture, I agree with you.  And I've made the point many times how well that worked for Butler for years.  Stevens took it to a whole new level...the right guy at Indiana can also.   Not sure why you think I disagree with you, especially since I've been touting Fife and Lewis recently.   What I disagree with is that Stevens was nothing more than a plug and play who worked out.   He's far more than that.  Which is what I said initially.  

So....where does that leave us?  You want to block me and I'll block you, or do you want to try to be civil?

[mdn82 25,456]

I said we could stop, meaning stop arguing about the basketball piece because we see it differently.  The back and forth is a sport to me, and apparently you as well.   Nice GC reference, too.  That's productive.   Especially given the "didn't think you'd be so dense" comment.   Why make that comment?   To accomplish what?  You said Brad Stevens was a successful plug and play.  If I wanted to comment on density, that'd be a good place to start.
I find it interesting that you accuse me of treating you like my kid when your initial response was "you do realize _______, right?"   Pot?  Meet kettle.   Given your stance above about what this is for, your worries about who does or does not get "the last word" also seems interesting.
I said Stevens was MORE than a plug and play.  Not that I disagreed with you.  Again, what part of that is confusing?  He was also more than a plug and play that worked out great.  The guy is a savant.  There's a reason Danny Ainge called him the best coach in basketball.   I've sat with him in his office at Butler (with Lewis), and I can tell you he is by far the most brilliant basketball mind I've ever been around.   Good, long  story and I walked away wishing he would move to Bloomington the following day.
If your opinion is that Indiana should hire from within their culture, I agree with you.  And I've made the point many times how well that worked for Butler for years.  Stevens took it to a whole new level...the right guy at Indiana can also.   Not sure why you think I disagree with you, especially since I've been touting Fife and Lewis recently.   What I disagree with is that Stevens was nothing more than a plug and play who worked out.   He's far more than that.  Which is what I said initially.  
So....where does that leave us?  You want to block me and I'll block you, or do you want to try to be civil?

Oh I have never blocked anyone in the last 15 years. That will never happen. But I will treat people or talk to them how I am treated. That would be a good place to start. At this point I am just using your wording and you are taking offense to it. Which is hilarious. I can be as nice and respectful to you as you are to me and my ideas. I have plenty of people on here I disagree or agree with productively. Do me a favor and look back at how you say things and imagine I was you saying things how you say them. Then come back and let me know if you don’t understand why I am the way I am towards you if that is the issue here.


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[Adillac 918]

IF players are not doing what Archie is asking them to do, he should play the end of the bench, period. Would absolutely love to see principle in action. IF that's the case. Might not be the case though of course.

I hope Archie succeeds here. I really do. I still think he will...just need another year to get in new blood.

[mdn82 25,456]

IF players are not doing what Archie is asking them to do, he should play the end of the bench, period. Would absolutely love to see principle in action. IF that's the case. Might not be the case though of course.
I hope Archie succeeds here. I really do. I still think he will...just need another year to get in new blood.

At this point I agree. There is no reason to not utilize the bench.


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[KYHoosier 333]

I don't post too often, and have had many different thoughts and emotions about this season so far. Finally had an opportunity to sort through them and would like to offer some hard reality but also some optimism to help quell all the negativity. As much as it pains me to say it, and I'm sure as much as it pains you to read it, we are not in the same conversation as UK, KU, UNC, Duke, MSU, Nova, etc right now. It's not fair at all to compare us to them... yet. However, I absolutely still believe we can and get to that level. This process with Archie is going to take some time, and perhaps most importantly its going to take buy in from the players and us, the fans. Yes, losses have piled up this year and that's frustrating to everyone. But when I take step back and look at the big picture, there are some very encouraging things going on. Our defense is markedly better, we are turning the ball over less, and we are recruiting the hell out of this state again. I also look at Archie and it's obvious how much he cares and how bad he wants to build this program. He understands it's going to take time to build the culture that is going to lead to long, sustainable results. I believe in him and I think its time for us to all buy in cause he's not going anywhere anytime soon. 

I also think its time for us to stop bickering about player rankings and whether certain players are worthy of us. Its clear there is an organized plan of attack to Archie's recruiting and it's already paying off. If he continues this we will be in a great position. Do we need top, high profile, five star players...absolutely. Some have argued against one and dones, but the reality is we need them. We also need the 3-4 star program builders (AKA the Sheeheys, Hulls, Zeisloft, Watfords of the world). One of which I really believe is Leal. Kid from our own backyard, loves IU, will probably be Mr. Basketball, and most importantly has arguably the greatest skill our team lacks this year...shooting. Hell yes we need this kid. We've had a guy we picked up from the rec center starting on and off for us for two now haha. He is absolutely worthy of an offer.  You have a solid core of these players (which is what Archie is building) and sprinkle in some top talent every year and you have a very solid and sustainable blueprint. Romeo has not been a pure waste just cause our team isn't very good this year. Romeo has been a symbol and ambassador for other top players when it comes to Indiana. He will continue to help garner interest from other top high school players just like he did with TJD and Keion Brooks. Top players are necessities just as much as the core 4 year players. 

To close, lets all take a step back from the ledge and have a little faith in Archie and this process and give it some time. If we do, I don't think we will be disappointed. 

[Ryno6284 2,517]

I just want to see heart, toughness, and solid basketball.  Is that too much to ask? 

[coonhounds 8,690]

I don't post too often, and have had many different thoughts and emotions about this season so far. Finally had an opportunity to sort through them and would like to offer some hard reality but also some optimism to help quell all the negativity. As much as it pains me to say it, and I'm sure as much as it pains you to read it, we are not in the same conversation as UK, KU, UNC, Duke, MSU, Nova, etc right now. It's not fair at all to compare us to them... yet. However, I absolutely still believe we can and get to that level. This process with Archie is going to take some time, and perhaps most importantly its going to take buy in from the players and us, the fans. Yes, losses have piled up this year and that's frustrating to everyone. But when I take step back and look at the big picture, there are some very encouraging things going on. Our defense is markedly better, we are turning the ball over less, and we are recruiting the hell out of this state again. I also look at Archie and it's obvious how much he cares and how bad he wants to build this program. He understands it's going to take time to build the culture that is going to lead to long, sustainable results. I believe in him and I think its time for us to all buy in cause he's not going anywhere anytime soon. 
I also think its time for us to stop bickering about player rankings and whether certain players are worthy of us. Its clear there is an organized plan of attack to Archie's recruiting and it's already paying off. If he continues this we will be in a great position. Do we need top, high profile, five star players...absolutely. Some have argued against one and dones, but the reality is we need them. We also need the 3-4 star program builders (AKA the Sheeheys, Hulls, Zeisloft, Watfords of the world). One of which I really believe is Leal. Kid from our own backyard, loves IU, will probably be Mr. Basketball, and most importantly has arguably the greatest skill our team lacks this year...shooting. Hell yes we need this kid. We've had a guy we picked up from the rec center starting on and off for us for two now haha. He is absolutely worthy of an offer.  You have a solid core of these players (which is what Archie is building) and sprinkle in some top talent every year and you have a very solid and sustainable blueprint. Romeo has not been a pure waste just cause our team isn't very good this year. Romeo has been a symbol and ambassador for other top players when it comes to Indiana. He will continue to help garner interest from other top high school players just like he did with TJD and Keion Brooks. Top players are necessities just as much as the core 4 year players. 
To close, lets all take a step back from the ledge and have a little faith in Archie and this process and give it some time. If we do, I don't think we will be disappointed. 

Hopefully it dont take the fans buying in because that is not going to happen unless we start winning again. By the end of this season archie will probably be close to crean level support his final season

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[HoosierAloha 29,887]

I just want to see heart, toughness, and solid basketball.  Is that too much to ask? 

I’d take a little “smart” and “connected” basketball along with heart and toughness.


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[theriverpilot 5,589]

Do we need top, high profile, five star players...absolutely. Some have argued against one and dones, but the reality is we need them. We also need the 3-4 star program builders (AKA the Sheeheys, Hulls, Zeisloft, Watfords of the world).

I was talking about this today with a coworker. I agree the 5 stars are nice for the talent alone but we need the 3 star, program builder, 4 year guys to change the culture (there’s that word again) of this program.

Also, it definitely seems this team is leaderless and I’m hoping like a guy like Phinisee will turn into that leader this team is missing.


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[Old Friend 8,389]

5 hours ago, mdn82 said:

Oh I have never blocked anyone in the last 15 years. That will never happen. But I will treat people or talk to them how I am treated. That would be a good place to start. At this point I am just using your wording and you are taking offense to it. Which is hilarious. I can be as nice and respectful to you as you are to me and my ideas. I have plenty of people on here I disagree or agree with productively. Do me a favor and look back at how you say things and imagine I was you saying things how you say them. Then come back and let me know if you don’t understand why I am the way I am towards you if that is the issue here.


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So tell me.....since you fired the first shot today; what in particular prompted it?   Since you treat everyone how you're treated..help me understand.  

I have taken no offense to anything (speaking of putting words in someone else's mouth).  You just made up a bunch of crap you mentioned you said....which you didn't; and as much as I'd love to be, I'm not a mind reader.   Write more clearly. 

To be honest? I've been a heck of a lot more respectful to you today (and recently....if of course you'd like to go back and look) than you've been to me; and I sure won't be told how to behave on a free chat board on which I've not had any issue in 4 years other than thin skinned guys who don't care for my style sometimes.  

So..go.  Tell me specifically when I said things to you that turned you into a permanent jerk.  I'll offer you the same courtesy you offered me.   Or...since nobody else is reading this, we can drop it and be civil until there's a reason not to be.  If you had some reason to start a conversation today with "you do realize ____, right?" and then make up a bunch of things before blaming me for whatever it is you're upset about, I'm all ears.  

[Old Friend 8,389]

4 hours ago, Ryno6284 said:

I just want to see heart, toughness, and solid basketball.  Is that too much to ask? 

For this group, it seems to be.

The question I really want answered is what happened?   We were 12-2 having beaten a few decent if not great teams and the bottom fell out.  The only thing that makes any sense is Phinisee getting hurt and not coming back himself, but that seems too simple.  Maybe it's not.

I've talked with 2 people relatively close to the program in the last 24 hours and neither of them has any idea.

[ElectricBoogaloo 4,293]

Has anyone been tracking the progress of Miller Time t-shirt sales? Could be a leading indicator. 

[Uspshoosier 44,207]

For this group, it seems to be.
The question I really want answered is what happened?   We were 12-2 having beaten a few decent if not great teams and the bottom fell out.  The only thing that makes any sense is Phinisee getting hurt and not coming back himself, but that seems too simple.  Maybe it's not.
I've talked with 2 people relatively close to the program in the last 24 hours and neither of them has any idea.

A little bit of everything it seems. Winning masks a lot of problems that were there early in the year. it’s easier to overlook them when you win. Smiths problems were present all the way back in the Arkansas game. Losing tends to put the spotlight on everything. Also earlier in the year defenses were not packing it in like they are now. IU has a small margin of error in my opinion and if something starts going south with this team it snowballs into a bigger problem then it needs to be. Not sure the answer and doesn’t seem that this year we will get one.


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[mdn82 25,456]

So tell me.....since you fired the first shot today; what in particular prompted it?   Since you treat everyone how you're treated..help me understand.  
I have taken no offense to anything (speaking of putting words in someone else's mouth).  You just made up a bunch of crap you mentioned you said....which you didn't; and as much as I'd love to be, I'm not a mind reader.   Write more clearly. 
To be honest? I've been a heck of a lot more respectful to you today (and recently....if of course you'd like to go back and look) than you've been to me; and I sure won't be told how to behave on a free chat board on which I've not had any issue in 4 years other than thin skinned guys who don't care for my style sometimes.  
So..go.  Tell me specifically when I said things to you that turned you into a permanent jerk.  I'll offer you the same courtesy you offered me.   Or...since nobody else is reading this, we can drop it and be civil until there's a reason not to be.  If you had some reason to start a conversation today with "you do realize ____, right?" and then make up a bunch of things before blaming me for whatever it is you're upset about, I'm all ears.  

Look on the first page. You can see my response to your initial quote. Then it was after that. Just look before you spout off idiotic things like this. You took offense to my comment about OSU on the first page. Who got chippy with who first? Treat people how I am treated.


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