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I'm saying if the end goal is win a championship and we have a coach who isn't capable of winning big road or neutral games, then we need to look at that as an evaluator and less on big wins like against Marquette at home. 

Well either way MSU was way better than Marquette. I don’t think anyone is saying because of that road win he deserves a contract extension just because he could do it. If you aren’t taking the whole picture into account you are doing yourself and your program a disservice. Eliminating something arbitrarily is a horrible idea other than to try and force a narrative. We wouldn’t want to do that here would we?


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11 hours ago, southernindianahoosier2 said:

I'm saying if the end goal is win a championship and we have a coach who isn't capable of winning big road or neutral games, then we need to look at that as an evaluator and less on big wins like against Marquette at home. 

How in the holy hell can you make the claim he isn't capable of winning big road games?  We beat MSU at MSU last season for the love of God.  Are you just making things up, hoping we have a horrible season so you can be "right?"   The way you guys judge Miller is unbelievable to me.  You've seen exactly one season with a single one of his recruits playing even a minute; and last season's roster was flawed on top of significant injury.   

Why don't we just sign coaches to one year contracts and then ask you guys if we should keep him or not?    Would that make you happy?    At this point in time, serious question, what would make you happy?  If Glass came out tomorrow and said he was letting go of Tom Allen and Archie Miller, it seems you dudes would throw a parade.   We might as well hire Big Bird.   You'd treat him the same way,

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How in the holy hell can you make the claim he isn't capable of winning big road games?  We beat MSU at MSU last season for the love of God.  Are you just making things up, hoping we have a horrible season so you can be "right?"   The way you guys judge Miller is unbelievable to me.  You've seen exactly one season with a single one of his recruits playing even a minute; and last season's roster was flawed on top of significant injury.   
Why don't we just sign coaches to one year contracts and then ask you guys if we should keep him or not?    Would that make you happy?    At this point in time, serious question, what would make you happy?  If Glass came out tomorrow and said he was letting go of Tom Allen and Archie Miller, it seems you dudes would throw a parade.   We might as well hire Big Bird.   You'd treat him the same way,

Smith and Durham are Archie’s recruits. He re-recruited them and they’ve never been coached by anyone else at IU. Those are his guys.


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I agree that Justin Smith and Al Durham are Archie recruits. Would he have recruited them if he had come to Indiana a year earlier? Who knows? Also, I don't think we know yet if Archie's teams can win on the road. The overall record is not good although, yes, he did win at Michigan State last year. But it is too earlier to reach a conclusion. There are a handful of truly great college coaches and a greater number of truly bad college coaches. Everybody else is in the middle--most can coach but they will never be in the same category as Knight or Krzyzewski.  Archie is likely in the middle some where. Clearly he is an improvement on Crean and should be given a chance to prove what he can do.

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13 hours ago, Old Friend said:

How in the holy hell can you make the claim he isn't capable of winning big road games?  We beat MSU at MSU last season for the love of God.  Are you just making things up, hoping we have a horrible season so you can be "right?"   The way you guys judge Miller is unbelievable to me.  You've seen exactly one season with a single one of his recruits playing even a minute; and last season's roster was flawed on top of significant injury.   

Why don't we just sign coaches to one year contracts and then ask you guys if we should keep him or not?    Would that make you happy?    At this point in time, serious question, what would make you happy?  If Glass came out tomorrow and said he was letting go of Tom Allen and Archie Miller, it seems you dudes would throw a parade.   We might as well hire Big Bird.   You'd treat him the same way,

I think that would be a step in the right direction with the exception I don't want Glass making another Coaching decision at IU.  Time for Fred to move along to a High School and destroy their programs. :)

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In what way has Glass destroyed the football program? Are you people kidding? Is he the one that stuck us in the Big Ten East? Is he the one that moved the Big Ten to a 9-game conference schedule? I know we haven't gone to a bowl under Allen yet, but we haven't gotten worse or stagnated. We've gotten better. The schedule is tougher and we've held at 5-7 which looks like treading water but really isn't.

Penix is just a freshman and the defense is still pretty young. I think we could still make a bowl this year if Penix makes it back next week and we're on track to become more competitive as these talented recruiting classes grow up. I think starting over before we see Allen with an upperclassman Penix would be a mistake unless he totally bombs out this year or next and goes 3-9.

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52 minutes ago, Aeggie said:

In what way has Glass destroyed the football program? Are you people kidding? Is he the one that stuck us in the Big Ten East? Is he the one that moved the Big Ten to a 9-game conference schedule? I know we haven't gone to a bowl under Allen yet, but we haven't gotten worse or stagnated. We've gotten better. The schedule is tougher and we've held at 5-7 which looks like treading water but really isn't.

Penix is just a freshman and the defense is still pretty young. I think we could still make a bowl this year if Penix makes it back next week and we're on track to become more competitive as these talented recruiting classes grow up. I think starting over before we see Allen with an upperclassman Penix would be a mistake unless he totally bombs out this year or next and goes 3-9.

Allen’s background is defense. What exactly would he do with a Jr-Sr Penix that he hasn’t or couldn’t do with Fr-So Penix?

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4 hours ago, Aeggie said:

In what way has Glass destroyed the football program? Are you people kidding? Is he the one that stuck us in the Big Ten East? Is he the one that moved the Big Ten to a 9-game conference schedule? I know we haven't gone to a bowl under Allen yet, but we haven't gotten worse or stagnated. We've gotten better. The schedule is tougher and we've held at 5-7 which looks like treading water but really isn't.

Penix is just a freshman and the defense is still pretty young. I think we could still make a bowl this year if Penix makes it back next week and we're on track to become more competitive as these talented recruiting classes grow up. I think starting over before we see Allen with an upperclassman Penix would be a mistake unless he totally bombs out this year or next and goes 3-9.

When the University of Central Florida has a better program and team for 10 consecutive years, and you are in the big ten....you aren't exactly at the top of your game.

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Allen’s background is defense. What exactly would he do with a Jr-Sr Penix that he hasn’t or couldn’t do with Fr-So Penix?

Hold on.

What can a upperclassmen QB do that a freshman couldn’t? Come on now.

Allen hired a new OC because he knows he’s not an offensive expert, and he knew his old offense wasn’t working. Your question may be more accurately asked as, “what could a senior QB accomplish in his 4th year with the same OC that he couldn’t accomplish in his first year?”

My answer is still COME ON NOW. We’ll see, but I’d bet my money that a senior QB will be used more effectively and play more effectively than the freshman version of themselves.


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31 minutes ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:


Hold on.

What can a upperclassmen QB do that a freshman couldn’t? Come on now.

Allen hired a new OC because he knows he’s not an offensive expert, and he knew his old offense wasn’t working. Your question may be more accurately asked as, “what could a senior QB accomplish in his 4th year with the same OC that he couldn’t accomplish in his first year?”

My answer is still COME ON NOW. We’ll see, but I’d bet my money that a senior QB will be used more effectively and play more effectively than the freshman version of themselves.


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Totally agree that a Sr Penix would be a better option that a Fr Penix - but my point stands that it won’t be Allen doing the mentoring - it will be whoever Allen is employing at OC and QB coach. That was the point of my original question.

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Hold on.

What can a upperclassmen QB do that a freshman couldn’t? Come on now.

Allen hired a new OC because he knows he’s not an offensive expert, and he knew his old offense wasn’t working. Your question may be more accurately asked as, “what could a senior QB accomplish in his 4th year with the same OC that he couldn’t accomplish in his first year?”

My answer is still COME ON NOW. We’ll see, but I’d bet my money that a senior QB will be used more effectively and play more effectively than the freshman version of themselves.


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Better question is what is Glass’ vision of the football team and what is Allen’s? From what I see, there is no vision. Under Wilson it was offense. And an offense that went no huddle, as one of the fastest in the nation and put points on the board. Allen is a defensive guy, but hires an OC that goes no huddle and quicker.. but at the same time you want strong, tough and stingy defense.. they don’t mix very well. Especially with such a low talent level. I’d understand if Allen wanted to go the smash mouth style. Huddle up, monster sized offensive line and run it down people’s throats. Like a very very poor Alabama.


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5 hours ago, finky said:

When the University of Central Florida has a better program and team for 10 consecutive years, and you are in the big ten....you aren't exactly at the top of your game.

Absolutely true- as it has been for pretty much my entire lifetime. IU didn't just start sucking so the better question is WHY has it always been bad? Short answer is because the fans and admin have accepted it. Changing an entire culture isn't easy. I'm not positive that Allen is the guy that will take IU to unprecedented heights, but I am confident he is a high character guy that loves IU and wants to do it the right way. He is upgrading the talent and slowly seems to be improving the on-field performance. Also I am not too sure there is anyone better for the job. Even if there is bringing him in would require another rebuild of a 3-4yrs to make it into his image. History shows that still isn't likely to improve the results much. 

I guess my point is an entrenched problem like IU football isn't likely to see a quick fix, so why not be patient?

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Totally agree that a Sr Penix would be a better option that a Fr Penix - but my point stands that it won’t be Allen doing the mentoring - it will be whoever Allen is employing at OC and QB coach. That was the point of my original question.

I’m not understanding your point then. Head Coaches aren’t experts in coaching and developing every position player. That’s why they hire OCs and position coaches. Allen is a HC with a defensive background, so I’d imagine he’ll have very little impact on anyone on the offensive side of the ball other than through his overall decisions.




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9 hours ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:


I’m not understanding your point then. Head Coaches aren’t experts in coaching and developing every position player. That’s why they hire OCs and position coaches. Allen is a HC with a defensive background, so I’d imagine he’ll have very little impact on anyone on the offensive side of the ball other than through his overall decisions.




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So we agree then that Allen will have little impact on QB development. Seeing as how this is a Glass thread I’ll bring it back to him.

By all reports the issues with the IU athletics go above him so don’t misconstrue that I’m advocating for his dismissal, but I can’t get behind the way Allen’s hiring went down. It’d be a hard sell for me for someone to say the BoT told Glass to not conduct a coaching search after he fired Wilson less than a year after giving him a 6 year extension, which the BoT would only approve not plant the idea in Glass’s head to offer. He let go of the most successful football coach IU’s had in 20 plus years, who made back to back bowl games and promoted his DC because he didn’t want to lose him? That’s no way to make a hire in a Power 5 conference. Glass couldn’t sell anyone on the job when the program was trending upwards - even if it’s a small uptick? I say back to you “Come On Man”.

 

And you may respond that Glass had to fire Wilson after the reports of player abuse, and I’d tend to agree, but the relationship between he and Glass was already rocky by all reports all the way back to his drunken episode his first year on campus, so he had information on why that extension may not be warranted. He chose to do so anyways and not even a full season later Allen’s the interim coach at the Foster Farms Bowl.

 

Why Allen, Glass, Archie are above criticism on this board is beyond me but just my take. I’ve heard changing the culture with IUFB and athletics in general - one of the biggest ways of doing so is to stop accepting mediocrity in my opinion. Know this has been perhaps an incoherent response but forgive me if I expect more from IU athletics. An AD in a power 5 conference will always have the success of its revenue generating sports as part of his/her measuring stick. And through 11 seasons Glass has come up short. I’m thrilled to see Allen’s success on the recruiting trail but at some point that needs to translate to wins. I’m hopeful Archie will get it turned around as I wanted him as coach if Donovan wasn’t an option and I have no reason to believe he was. Now I’m rambling so I’m going to sign off now - but just my take on things. Read this forum daily but I can’t get on board with the idea that Glass is somehow above criticism when there is clear evidence to warrant some - mainly his IUFB and IUBB records over 11 seasons and his issuing of extensions like they are Skittles.

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42 minutes ago, kreigh8 said:

So we agree then that Allen will have little impact on QB development. Seeing as how this is a Glass thread I’ll bring it back to him.

By all reports the issues with the IU athletics go above him so don’t misconstrue that I’m advocating for his dismissal, but I can’t get behind the way Allen’s hiring went down. It’d be a hard sell for me for someone to say the BoT told Glass to not conduct a coaching search after he fired Wilson less than a year after giving him a 6 year extension, which the BoT would only approve not plant the idea in Glass’s head to offer. He let go of the most successful football coach IU’s had in 20 plus years, who made back to back bowl games and promoted his DC because he didn’t want to lose him? That’s no way to make a hire in a Power 5 conference. Glass couldn’t sell anyone on the job when the program was trending upwards - even if it’s a small uptick? I say back to you “Come On Man”.

 

And you may respond that Glass had to fire Wilson after the reports of player abuse, and I’d tend to agree, but the relationship between he and Glass was already rocky by all reports all the way back to his drunken episode his first year on campus, so he had information on why that extension may not be warranted. He chose to do so anyways and not even a full season later Allen’s the interim coach at the Foster Farms Bowl.

 

Why Allen, Glass, Archie are above criticism on this board is beyond me but just my take. I’ve heard changing the culture with IUFB and athletics in general - one of the biggest ways of doing so is to stop accepting mediocrity in my opinion. Know this has been perhaps an incoherent response but forgive me if I expect more from IU athletics. An AD in a power 5 conference will always have the success of its revenue generating sports as part of his/her measuring stick. And through 11 seasons Glass has come up short. I’m thrilled to see Allen’s success on the recruiting trail but at some point that needs to translate to wins. I’m hopeful Archie will get it turned around as I wanted him as coach if Donovan wasn’t an option and I have no reason to believe he was. Now I’m rambling so I’m going to sign off now - but just my take on things. Read this forum daily but I can’t get on board with the idea that Glass is somehow above criticism when there is clear evidence to warrant some - mainly his IUFB and IUBB records over 11 seasons and his issuing of extensions like they are Skittles.

I could read this thread 100 times and not find a single piece of evidence anyone said Glass is above criticism.  

I'd also like you to justify in any way "the basketball record" as having one thing to do with him and please refer to my timeline a few pages back.   Glass has nothing....absolutely zero to do with that, and he did what he had to do (took action) when he had to do it.  Same with football.

Donovan was not an option and he was never contacted.  He's just a name like Brad Stevens was just a name.  Timing with him never worked out.  Miller was a good hire, and the "immediate satisfaction" crowd can wait a year or two to see it.  

The IUFB record under Glass is 48-78 with 2 bowl games.  The record with coaches he hired save Wilson's first year when we had no players is 38-54.  Except for the Bill Mallory era, Indiana hasn't had that kind of record in its history, so I can't get on board with Glass being nearly as bad as some would have you believe. 

Oh, and here's a fact for you Tom Allen's record as head coach sits at 13-15.  .464%  A better % than any head coach in IU history. except Bill Mallory who was .466.   You can argue the hiring process (as far as anyone here knows, and I promise neither you nor I know the whole story) wasn't handled as well as it could have been, but that's a kiddie pool shallow way to view it.  There is so much more to that than simply "hiring Allen."  I get it.  The buck stops with Glass, but you're (the collective you) making judgments before all (and in fact MOST) of the evidence has been presented.   "Your honor...I present.... "     "GUILTY BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE THE WAY HE LOOKS!"

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2 minutes ago, Old Friend said:

I could read this thread 100 times and not find a single piece of evidence anyone said Glass is above criticism.  

I'd also like you to justify in any way "the basketball record" as having one thing to do with him and please refer to my timeline a few pages back.   Glass has nothing....absolutely zero to do with that, and he did what he had to do (took action) when he had to do it.  Same with football.

Donovan was not an option and he was never contacted.  He's just a name like Brad Stevens was just a name.  Timing with him never worked out.  Miller was a good hire, and the "immediate satisfaction" crowd can wait a year or two to see it.  

The IUFB record under Glass is 48-78 with 2 bowl games.  The record with coaches he hired save Wilson's first year when we had no players is 38-54.  Except for the Bill Mallory era, Indiana hasn't had that kind of record in its history, so I can't get on board with Glass being nearly as bad as some would have you believe. 

Oh, and here's a fact for you Tom Allen's record as head coach sits at 13-15.  .464%  A better % than any head coach in IU history. except Bill Mallory who was .466.   You can argue the hiring process (as far as anyone here knows, and I promise neither you nor I know the whole story) wasn't handled as well as it could have been, but that's a kiddie pool shallow way to view it.  There is so much more to that than simply "hiring Allen."  I get it.  The buck stops with Glass, but you're (the collective you) making judgments before all (and in fact MOST) of the evidence has been presented.   "Your honor...I present.... "     "GUILTY BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE THE WAY HE LOOKS!"

Fair enough. We all want the same thing - IU success. I do enjoy reading for sure, as you seem to be in the know more than most so I enjoy the back and forth as long as you do, hopefully I didn’t say anything to out of line as your all caps at the end would have me believe I may have.

Like I said I wanted Archie from the get and I was one to drink the Cool-Aid with Crean at the beginning so I truly hope I’m not wrong again. I’m not naive enough to think that Glass has done a poor job as the facility upgrades alone are enough evidence to me that he’s got a vision for athletics moving forward and is getting IU back to a level playing field with the rest of the country. I just think in the Big10 there’s a way of conducting hirings and the Allen hiring left a bad taste in my mouth and I would love to eat my words on that. His attitude is infectious but when I look around the rest of the conference’s coaches I don’t see Allen as that enticing of an option for recruits of today, but winning goes along way with that and he very well may turn things around. Like I said I hope I’m wrong.

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