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11 minutes ago, Joe DeLow said:


The writing was on the wall after the biggest embarrassment of coaching in the Sweet 16 game against Cuse. A team he played against several times while at Marquette... and didn’t know they’d play that much zone... THATS LITERALLY THE ONLY THING THEY DO. Then 2013-2014 came. Talk about a coach who had zero idea at how to adjust to a roster he created. It was clear he wasn’t the guy at that point. But good ole Freddy had decided he was.


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That logic is so incredibly flawed it's hard to respond to. First, you have no idea what Crean coached the kids to do against Cuse, you're assuming the players always execute the game plan without fault. Fire a coach because he loses to a Final Four team? Seems legit. I guess everyone Cuse beat that year should have made a coaching change. None of this matters because the President and the  Board would never have approved Crean's firing in the first place. 

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It isn’t that you lose to a 4 seed in the Sweet 16, it is how you lose. And that was an embarrassment. That was an unprepared team. That was a coach who had zero clue on the planet on how to beat a zone. We were arguably the best team in the nation, and I’d say we absolutely were and we were made to look like trash by Cuse. It was obvious after that game that Crean wasn’t the guy and it never changed for him. He still has no clue on how to beat a zone.


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No coach is fired on emotion and firing a coach on one game is over emotion. If you brought up the end stretch and how we struggled down the stretch, then ok. I wouldn’t agree with you but you can have a more logical discussion to this.


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34 minutes ago, KzooHoosier82 said:

That logic is so incredibly flawed it's hard to respond to. First, you have no idea what Crean coached the kids to do against Cuse, you're assuming the players always execute the game plan without fault. Fire a coach because he loses to a Final Four team? Seems legit. I guess everyone Cuse beat that year should have made a coaching change. None of this matters because the President and the  Board would never have approved Crean's firing in the first place. 

I have no dog in this fight, but Crean put Zeller at the FT line against that zone.   Zeller had not been asked to make jumpers from there in the entire time he was at IU.  Syracuse was long and had good shot blockers down low.  First play of that game, Zeller catches at the foul line...has an open jumper; but elects to drive the ball instead.  Shot blocked.  We kept driving the ball against it...and Syracuse had 11 blocks.  Like we didn't learn. Indiana only shot 34% for the game and the only two players who had even a modicum of success were Sheehey and Oladipo...and both had some success with mid range jumpers; which is where that zone was vulnerable.   

Butler...when they played against the same zone...had put Shelvin Mack, a good shooter at the FT line against that zone, and he made a few from there, causing the zone to collapse and opened up opportunities for other people.   Zeller being there was not a threat to shoot and score from that spot, so it allowed Syracuse to pressure the perimeter a little more.   As a result, Hulls only gets 5 shot attempts, all contested and missed them all.  It allowed Syracuse to completely take Yogi away.  Zeller being in the wrong spot was a primary reason we played like we did.

That happened.  It's something other than flawed logic.  One can reasonably assume Zeller was in that spot because Crean told him to be there.  The formula was there for beating that zone, and it wasn't perimeter oriented.   Not saying Crean should or shouldn't have been fired for it; but the game plan for that one was flawed and played a major role in the loss.

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31 minutes ago, KzooHoosier82 said:

Is that a serious response? God, I hope not.

Partially. No one is going to fire someone after three years, especially when you were in the situation Crean walked into, but the warning signs were all there by year 3. 

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2 minutes ago, Old Friend said:

I have no dog in this fight, but Crean put Zeller at the FT line against that zone.   Zeller had not been asked to make jumpers from there in the entire time he was at IU.  Syracuse was long and had good shot blockers down low.  First play of that game, Zeller catches at the foul line...has an open jumper; but elects to drive the ball instead.  Shot blocked.  We kept driving the ball against it...and Syracuse had 11 blocks.  Like we didn't learn. Indiana only shot 34% for the game and the only two players who had even a modicum of success were Sheehey and Oladipo...and both had some success with mid range jumpers; which is where that zone was vulnerable.   

Butler...when they played against the same zone...had put Shelvin Mack, a good shooter at the FT line against that zone, and he made a few from there, causing the zone to collapse and opened up opportunities for other people.   Zeller being there was not a threat to shoot and score from that spot, so it allowed Syracuse to pressure the perimeter a little more.   As a result, Hulls only gets 5 shot attempts, all contested and missed them all.

That happened.  It's something other than flawed logic.  One can reasonably assume Zeller was in that spot because Crean told him to be there.  The formula was there for beating that zone, and it wasn't perimeter oriented.   Not saying Crean should or shouldn't have been fired for it; but the game plan for that one was flawed and played a major role in the loss.

I completely agree with you. Coaches overthink strategy and get out coached all the time. It was a bad game at a very bad time against a very hot team. Doesn't make it a logical reason to fire a guy. 

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1 minute ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Partially. No one is going to fire someone after three years, especially when you were in the situation Crean walked into, but the warning signs were all there by year 3. 

I mean, this makes zero sense but ok? We fire Crean year three and we don't get Zeller...that's a fact. It would literally have been the dumbest move in college basketball history, equal to giving ourselves the death penalty. There would have been no coming out of that.

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2 minutes ago, Hoosierfan2017 said:

Partially. No one is going to fire someone after three years, especially when you were in the situation Crean walked into, but the warning signs were all there by year 3. 

I thought they were there earlier than that.  I took a lot of crap for saying I could teach a fat kid in flip flops to move.  

What coach demands an extension before he has any success?   What coach harps constantly about who he used to coach or who his in laws are?  He didn't deserve to be fired after year 3; and I love that he won two Big Ten titles; but he was never consistent and never built teams that could sustain success.   Just not the right fit.

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2 hours ago, KzooHoosier82 said:

Lol, so Crean brings the program out of the literal ashes, gets IU to the S16 in 2011-12, wins the BigTen and back to the S16 in 2012-13, has a bad year and thus should be fired? Nevermind how far that would have set the program back, thus eliminating any chance for that BigTen championship in 2015-16. To say Crean should have been fired after 13-14 is entitled ignorance at its best. Bob Knights last six seasons were full of nothing but middle of the road BigTen finishes and first round tourney knockouts and there were riots after he got fired. Give me Crean's last six years over Knight's any day of the week.

The program being in ashes is a Fallacy pushed by Crean to buy himself plenty of time with no expectations. By his third year he could have fielded a competitive team and instead he went 12-20 and 3-15 in the BIG (Losing one more game than the year prior). IMO without the Zeller commitment, he gets fired after 2012. The BigTen Championship in 15-16 and the UK win in the tourney was nice, but I would gladly have traded that in for a gamble on a new coach after the 2013-2014 season. For example if we hire Archie after the 2013-2014 season we have a chance to recruit some top Indiana talent and we wouldn't be looking at missing the Tournament for the third straight year and going through a "rebuild". Had Glass just pulled the plug when he should have, we wouldn't be in the mess we are today. Imagine this roster with Kyle Guy, Kris Wilkes, Romeo, Rob Phin, et al. Now that's a title contender. Crean stayed way too long and once we see his results speak for themselves after 8-9 years at Georgia, then hopefully everyone can look back on his time here and say, "Yeah, he needed to go sooner"

 

Such a poor decision by the AD. The writing was on the wall based on both coaching philosophy and roster management, it was evident in 2012-2013 when Crean "Creaned" Matt Roth and Ron Patterson in favor of Peter Jurkin and Hanner Perea. Ya I get the counter argument, but a lot of the fan base thought he was a fraud. 

 

 

 

 

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We lost on a buzzer beater at Illinois, to Ohio State at home, at Minnesota and Wisconsin in the B1G tourney. Those were 4 tourney teams. It is understandable. It didn’t look great but at the same time that was happening, we beat Michigan State 10 days before the Illinois loss, destroyed Purdue at Purdue, beat Michigan, then lost to Illinois. How did we follow up the loss to Illinois? With a 13 point win AT #10 Ohio State. Then we whooped Purdue and beat MSU at the Breslin Center. Lost at Minnesota, beat Iowa, lost to Ohio State and then beat Michigan at Michigan to win the B1G title. Got revenge on Illinois by beating them 80-64 and as usual lost in the B1G tourney and happened to be Wisconsin. So for as bad as it may have seemed, that team would answer and didn’t lose back to back games. And then the Cuse game happened. And you saw a team that looked completely lost.


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What you fail to acknowledge is we weren’t playing our best ball at the end of the season. Let alone we were wore down from his practicing techniques which tells me he didn’t have the pulse of the team. Losing one game no matter how you justify it to yourself is no reason to fire a coach. It may open your eyes if you hadn’t noticed the stretch but no you do not fire a coach on one game.


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13 minutes ago, southernindianahoosier2 said:

The program being in ashes is a Fallacy pushed by Crean to buy himself plenty of time with no expectations. By his third year he could have fielded a competitive team and instead he went 12-20 and 3-15 in the BIG (Losing one more game than the year prior). IMO without the Zeller commitment, he gets fired after 2012. The BigTen Championship in 15-16 and the UK win in the tourney was nice, but I would gladly have traded that in for a gamble on a new coach after the 2013-2014 season. For example if we hire Archie after the 2013-2014 season we have a chance to recruit some top Indiana talent and we wouldn't be looking at missing the Tournament for the third straight year and going through a "rebuild". Had Glass just pulled the plug when he should have, we wouldn't be in the mess we are today. Imagine this roster with Kyle Guy, Kris Wilkes, Romeo, Rob Phin, et al. Now that's a title contender. Crean stayed way too long and once we see his results speak for themselves after 8-9 years at Georgia, then hopefully everyone can look back on his time here and say, "Yeah, he needed to go sooner"

 

Such a poor decision by the AD. The writing was on the wall based on both coaching philosophy and roster management, it was evident in 2012-2013 when Crean "Creaned" Matt Roth and Ron Patterson in favor of Peter Jurkin and Hanner Perea. Ya I get the counter argument, but a lot of the fan base thought he was a fraud. 

 

 

 

 

A fallacy? wow. I mean our team consisted entirely of walk on level players...literally. I mean I think it was just a rumor but if they announced a try out at the HYPER  I wouldn't have been shocked as I guarantee there were intramural teams that would have beat what IU had in Crean's first year. Crean's 2009 recruiting class was a miracle given the state of the program and they needed a year or two to develop, while Crean added more high level recruits like VO, Sheehey, and Zeller to the fold. 

At least Crean's teams got progressively better as he brought in talent in those early years. Archie failed (what we thought was miserably before experiencing what true misery is now) last year with a decent squad and we gave him a pass because they are "Crean's players". Add in Romeo and Phin and we're even worse this year despite how the fan base insisted losing Newkirk and RoJo was addition by subtraction. 

Your arguments are full of "what ifs" that require huge stretches to come to fruition....Wilkes for one never wanted to play at IU. However, none of this even matters..the argument in this thread is simple: "blame Glass for not firing Crean sooner" which even if it made sense at the time to do (not relying solely on hindsight) he didn't have the authority to do it in the first place. You literally cannot argue Glass should have fired Crean any sooner than he did because he quite literally couldn't even if he wanted to.

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A fallacy? wow. I mean our team consisted entirely of walk on level players...literally. I mean I think it was just a rumor but if they announced a try out at the HYPER  I wouldn't have been shocked as I guarantee there were intramural teams that would have beat what IU had in Crean's first year. Crean's 2009 recruiting class was a miracle given the state of the program and they needed a year or two to develop, while Crean added more high level recruits like VO, Sheehey, and Zeller to the fold. 
At least Crean's teams got progressively better as he brought in talent in those early years. Archie failed (what we thought was miserably before experiencing what true misery is now) last year with a decent squad and we gave him a pass because they are "Crean's players". Add in Romeo and Phin and we're even worse this year despite how the fan base insisted losing Newkirk and RoJo was addition by subtraction. 
Your arguments are full of "what ifs" that require huge stretches to come to fruition....Wilkes for one never wanted to play at IU. However, none of this even matters..the argument in this thread is simple: "blame Glass for not firing Crean sooner" which even if it made sense at the time to do (not relying solely on hindsight) he didn't have the authority to do it in the first place. You literally cannot argue Glass should have fired Crean any sooner than he did because he quite literally couldn't even if he wanted to.

I am from Huntington and when Mike Santa suited up, I couldn’t have been more embarrassed for IU. He didn’t play much at Huntington North. He was a manager at IU due to his dad being an AD at HNHS. The thing that got me was how much Crean talked him up. Believe me when I say he talked him up like a gimme opponent and then some. I guess that was my first reservation or “what did he just say” moment. But that team was about as bare as a D1 team could be.


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1 minute ago, mdn82 said:


I am from Huntington and when Mike Santa suited up, I couldn’t have been more embarrassed for IU. He didn’t play much at Huntington North. He was a manager at IU due to his dad being an AD at HNHS. The thing that got me was how much Crean talked him up. Believe me when I say he talked him up like a gimme opponent and then some. I guess that was my first reservation or “what did he just say” moment. But that team was about as bare as a D1 team could be.


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Crean is the best used car salesmen on the planet. Of course he talked him up just like he talked up Gelon. He's not going to trash his own guys, he's going to try and will them with confidence in hopes they'll make him look brilliant. That team was worse than SMU football's return from the death penalty...to say Crean should have had IU winning year two or three is simply being an unabashed blowhard with no concept of reality. Year four we beat the best college team on the planet (that year and probably ever sense) 

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Archie is in no way like crean. Archie is taking full responsibility and seems to be genuinely confident he can turn this thing around. Crean is already talking his kids at Georgia down. I really don't think Fred glass needs fired for his basketball hire yet. Wont talk about football though lol

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28 minutes ago, KzooHoosier82 said:

A fallacy? wow. I mean our team consisted entirely of walk on level players...literally. I mean I think it was just a rumor but if they announced a try out at the HYPER  I wouldn't have been shocked as I guarantee there were intramural teams that would have beat what IU had in Crean's first year. Crean's 2009 recruiting class was a miracle given the state of the program and they needed a year or two to develop, while Crean added more high level recruits like VO, Sheehey, and Zeller to the fold. 

At least Crean's teams got progressively better as he brought in talent in those early years. Archie failed (what we thought was miserably before experiencing what true misery is now) last year with a decent squad and we gave him a pass because they are "Crean's players". Add in Romeo and Phin and we're even worse this year despite how the fan base insisted losing Newkirk and RoJo was addition by subtraction. 

Your arguments are full of "what ifs" that require huge stretches to come to fruition....Wilkes for one never wanted to play at IU. However, none of this even matters..the argument in this thread is simple: "blame Glass for not firing Crean sooner" which even if it made sense at the time to do (not relying solely on hindsight) he didn't have the authority to do it in the first place. You literally cannot argue Glass should have fired Crean any sooner than he did because he quite literally couldn't even if he wanted to.

Didn't Crean kick some players off the team coupled with failing to retain all of the ones previously recruited? So I think he should take some blame for having to play all the walk ons (Not saying 100%). I'm just saying he isn't blameless. 

 

Progressively better? Those teams the first 2 years were bad. In year 3 we were just as bad, maybe worse considering we underachieved. So in looking back Crean had 3 awful years and then happened to have landed Zeller, he has 2 great years with Zeller and then 3 out of the next 4 seasons are Missed Tournament, First Round Loss, S16 and Missed Tournament. His best team was the 2011-2012 team. So really I don't think his teams really improved all that much. Without 1 player his record would be abysmal. 

 

Glass couldn't fire Crean because Glass singed him to that ridiculous extension. Our AD should also be able to make decisions without asking for approval. 

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The writing was on the wall after the biggest embarrassment of coaching in the Sweet 16 game against Cuse. A team he played against several times while at Marquette... and didn’t know they’d play that much zone... THATS LITERALLY THE ONLY THING THEY DO. Then 2013-2014 came. Talk about a coach who had zero idea at how to adjust to a roster he created. It was clear he wasn’t the guy at that point. But good ole Freddy had decided he was.


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He wss freds boy and still would be if fred was not overruled.

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It isn’t that you lose to a 4 seed in the Sweet 16, it is how you lose. And that was an embarrassment. That was an unprepared team. That was a coach who had zero clue on the planet on how to beat a zone. We were arguably the best team in the nation, and I’d say we absolutely were and we were made to look like trash by Cuse. It was obvious after that game that Crean wasn’t the guy and it never changed for him. He still has no clue on how to beat a zone.


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Michigan diced that zone apart in the final four. The vaunted zone. But we also got taken apart pretty good by Wisconsin in the BTT. The team had already peaked.

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