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Rico

Pack line defense..

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I've been studying the pack-line defense for the past couple years since I'm into coaching universe. I think what our problem here is our youth. Our experienced players were raised under Crean and we all knew about his defense. Some coaches have some little modifications in their pack-lines so I can say for sure what Archie wants / allows. At times our defense looks great, the pack-line is great, the gaps are covered, we're tagging the rolls / cutters and then at other times it's looking lost. 

 

Confidence and youth is what I'm diagnosing us with, at least on defense. 

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17 hours ago, Treesh said:

I've been studying the pack-line defense for the past couple years since I'm into coaching universe. I think what our problem here is our youth. Our experienced players were raised under Crean and we all knew about his defense. Some coaches have some little modifications in their pack-lines so I can say for sure what Archie wants / allows. At times our defense looks great, the pack-line is great, the gaps are covered, we're tagging the rolls / cutters and then at other times it's looking lost. 

 

Confidence and youth is what I'm diagnosing us with, at least on defense. 

That’s a big part of it. The pack line doesn’t leave much room for error so players have to know it well enough to react naturally. Most of them didn’t play anything much more complicated than a zone or man-to-man until they got to IU  and have to think about what they’re supposed to be doing. When you play a team like Michigan that moves the ball well you can’t afford to have that delay.

The other major factor is chemistry. You have to play as a unit and we haven’t had any kind of consistency in our lineups.

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Any thoughts from the coaching minds about Archie's system? Specifically, does the pack-line philosophy hinder IU from running any fast breaks? I think this team has about 10 points off of fast breaks for the entire season. Are too many guys in the lane looking for a defensive rebound or double teaming to try to get a stop and it prevents them from getting out and running? Obviously this isn't a run-and-gun team, but the fast-break offense is non-existent for this group, and it seems to me there are a couple guys on this roster who could be deadly on the run (Smith/Romeo/Juwan).

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4 minutes ago, Baltimore Hoosier said:

Any thoughts from the coaching minds about Archie's system? Specifically, does the pack-line philosophy hinder IU from running any fast breaks? I think this team has about 10 points off of fast breaks for the entire season. Are too many guys in the lane looking for a defensive rebound or double teaming to try to get a stop and it prevents them from getting out and running? Obviously this isn't a run-and-gun team, but the fast-break offense is non-existent for this group, and it seems to me there are a couple guys on this roster who could be deadly on the run (Smith/Romeo/Juwan).

Ironically Archie’s offense focuses on fast breaks. Using both the Phoenix and the and the North Carolina

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21 minutes ago, Joe DeLow said:


Very contradicting philosophies for sure. You sit back basically and just play sound defense but yet you want to run. Would be more of a fan of the system Louisville had under Pitino. More in your face and force turnovers. Maybe when Archie gets a deeper roster of wings then he will unleash guys more.


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Think 1981.  Knight unleashed the hounds.

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7 hours ago, Joe DeLow said:


Very contradicting philosophies for sure. You sit back basically and just play sound defense but yet you want to run. Would be more of a fan of the system Louisville had under Pitino. More in your face and force turnovers. Maybe when Archie gets a deeper roster of wings then he will unleash guys more.


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It actually makes more sense than one would think. Beating the pack line requires players that can make contested jump shots (usually threes), or an offense based on screening and ball movement. Patience and proper execution puts pressure on the offense which often forces turnovers, and contested threes mean long rebounds. Both are opportunities for transition offense.

It’s certainly not the most proactive approach but what we’re seeing is far from how the final product is supposed to look. I’m looking forward to seeing it work as intended, especially after watching our players jump passing lanes and give up position for 9 years.

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42 minutes ago, cappymo14 said:

I have to get involved here. You are all attempting to compare the UVA pack line to the one Archie runs. Doing so is folly. They are not the same. Not even close. They are similar only in name. Watch closely. The UVA pack line has a set of “rules” governing how certain players, and more importantly, what players, cover and help off of dribble penetration at (remember this) SPECIFIC POINTS OF ATTACK. Different from key, different from wing, different from baseline. Different on ball, different on screen. If you watch closely at how UVA covers say, a dribble handoff up top. Hedge right? With A 5? Wrong. The help rotations themselves are way, way different. You have to be able to see that first. What about doubles? Want to see a wide open 3? Watch Indiana double the post once. Just once. That double is coming straight from the ball side wing, sure as the mail. Baseline 3...book it. UVA, has a different rule for that. Always trap blind side. I say all this not to say Archie’s pack line won’t work, of course it will. Just needs time. I’m just saying watch how much you compare the two because it’s not the same thing. They just both happen to be called pack lines.


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Good stuff man.  I wish I would have recorded that UVA/ND game so I could watch it again.  And yes, from memory, it looks nothing like we play.  I recall the Cavs sagging off their guys on the weak side, their focus was on the strong side.  Notre Dame wasn't able to rotate the ball on them fast enough, but when they did UVA would swarm all over that.  

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All season -- even last night -- we give up 3s because we're getting lost or confused on switches or because when a guard drives, the wing defenders move in to help, leave their man and leave us vulnerable to a kick out to a wide-open shooter. Someone with a deeper understanding of Xs and Os will have to explain this to me: Is that just a hazard of the pack line, or are we still just not executing it correctly? If a kid is outside and just knocks down a 3 by shooting over the defender or creating his own shot, you can't always help that and you just tip your hat to the shooter. But on way, way too many occasions, the opposition gets 3s that are wide open because of our defensive breakdowns. At least it seems that way to me. 

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All season -- even last night -- we give up 3s because we're getting lost or confused on switches or because when a guard drives, the wing defenders move in to help, leave their man and leave us vulnerable to a kick out to a wide-open shooter. Someone with a deeper understanding of Xs and Os will have to explain this to me: Is that just a hazard of the pack line, or are we still just not executing it correctly? If a kid is outside and just knocks down a 3 by shooting over the defender or creating his own shot, you can't always help that and you just tip your hat to the shooter. But on way, way too many occasions, the opposition gets 3s that are wide open because of our defensive breakdowns. At least it seems that way to me. 

I’ve played and coached it for years so maybe I can offer some insight. The pack line only works when everyone fully understands it and buys in. That’s why many of Archie’s teams have had more success as the year progresses because it takes time to master. For instance, if someone gets beat off the ball from the corner, the defender on the opposite side has to step over and help, and the defender at the top of the key slides down to take the position of the defender who just went to help, and so on.

So my take? We’re just a step or two slow right now and that’s why we’re giving slightly open threes. At times, our D breaks down all together and the other team gets a wide open 3


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I’ve played and coached it for years so maybe I can offer some insight. The pack line only works when everyone fully understands it and buys in. That’s why many of Archie’s teams have had more success as the year progresses because it takes time to master. For instance, if someone gets beat off the ball from the corner, the defender on the opposite side has to step over and help, and the defender at the top of the key slides down to take the position of the defender who just went to help, and so on.

 

So my take? We’re just a step or two slow right now and that’s why we’re giving slightly open threes. At times, our D breaks down all together and the other team gets a wide open 3

 

 

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Simple, but yeah that’s about it. One MAJOR reason for the seemingly out of position 3’s is clear over-help from the back court. That’s experience and feel. One unnecessary over help is all that’s needed to get the entire help rotation way behind.

I noticed a huge change in Archie’s pack line philosophy last night. Complete glaring difference from previous games. Anyone know what was different? Hint: How did they slow the handoffs and east-west penetration? More importantly, who. #2, where were double teams coming from? Where did they come from and how did they cover a completely vacated help side? Had not been done in 2 years.

 

 

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Answer: they hedged with Smith and Forrester instead of using the center
(Morgan and Davis). Completely new and effective. For the sake of this thread, that’s exactly what UVA does. Had to be a major adjustment for Smith. Very well done. #2 Blind post to post double, vacating the off-ball wing. Not unusual. But watch Durham. In previous games, like I said earlier in another post, he or any 2 would rotate toward the off ball corner. Easy kick to a wing 3. Now I see they are sagging him to the free throw line extended corner. The elbow if you will. Better in my opinion because the doubled player can’t see the baseline corner to pass anyway. His only kick is wing.
 
 
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Thanks for breaking that down - love that Archie can make those kinds of adjustments to his scheme.

He’s clearly a talented coach, but more importantly it seems he’s someone capable of growing. That’s why I’m so optimistic about him long term.


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I tried to find it but could not. If you go back to his initial press conference or one of the early interviews Archie said it would take 3 years to install his defense.

So what we see out there now is not necessarily going to be what it is when installed fully.


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I tried to find it but could not. If you go back to his initial press conference or one of the early interviews Archie said it would take 3 years to install his defense.

So what we see out there now is not necessarily going to be what it is when installed fully.


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I spent time looking for that the other day and couldn’t find it - glad you mentioned/remember that.


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I still say the defense has been relatively good this year. Sure they have their mishaps but overall I think the defense has been good enough to keep us in almost every game this year as bad as the offense has been.


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True in my opinion as well. Many of our games have been played in the 60’s to low 70’s. That gives any team a fighting chance. The only thing about it that really seems to bother me is that it seems so terribly susceptible to dribble penetration late in the clock. Anytime actually. Now that should definitely not be the case. Hell its probably easier to penetrate a 2-3 with the dribble than it is a pack line. It’s not taking more than a ball screen really. I can’t figure what’s going wrong there. It’s a player thing over a systematic thing though. I’m pretty convinced of that. Hope they can plug that because we’re not always going to get shot blocking at the rim.


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