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Bigred3588

Inclined to Give Archie a Break

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1 minute ago, HoosierCoop said:

As of now they are a bigger wave.

FW, ISU??? 1st few games of last year and we improved from that.

Archie....

Can't make them make free throws

Can't make them not injured

Can't make them hit 3-point shots

Can't make our bench productive in a game situation

So what do you want Archie to do different?  Sub differently? Switch the offense geared for the outside shot?

I want this team to turn around as bad as anyone what do you do?

Did we improve last year?  I didn't see it as we lost to 14 seed Rutgers in the first round of the BTT.  Are we really making excuses for him consistently losing to teams with inferior talent?  Yeesh.

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As of now they are a bigger wave.
FW, ISU??? 1st few games of last year and we improved from that.
Archie....
Can't make them make free throws
Can't make them not injured
Can't make them hit 3-point shots
Can't make our bench productive in a game situation
So what do you want Archie to do different?  Sub differently? Switch the offense geared for the outside shot?
I want this team to turn around as bad as anyone what do you do?
The power lifting and and sand pit all about defense accounts for the injuries and the horrible shooting. Never did we see the players shooting. They should shoot at least 500 shots a day.

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4 minutes ago, maharkn said:

The power lifting and and sand pit all about defense accounts for the injuries and the horrible shooting. Never did we see the players shooting. They should shoot at least 500 shots a day.

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Walk into Assembly Hall or Cook Hall in the summer and see if these kids are putting up shots. I promise you they are. The two much weight lifting will hurt your shot is such a wise tail. 

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Archie will not be fired this year. But a decision should be made after year three if the team fails to make the tournament. Brooks signing elsewhere would also be a big red flag.

After year 3 in your opinion if he doesn’t make the tourney he should be fired? But if he makes the tourney let’s say squeaks in as an 11 seed and loses first game his job is safe just because he made the tourney?


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14 minutes ago, HoosierCoop said:

As of now they are a bigger wave.

FW, ISU??? 1st few games of last year and we improved from that.

Archie....

Can't make them make free throws

No, however he can set an environment and practice conditions that help and improve this.  Expectations of focus on it would help.  There's a reason the same teams, regardless of players are pretty reliable from the FT line.   This is Indiana.  Kids can generally shoot in Indiana.  Granted, not all players are his, but at IU?  There is no excuse for missing FT's to the level we have.

Can't make them not injured

Something is wrong here.  Our injuries are inordinate.   Hard to blame the coach, but....if it's a conditioning problem or some practice/drill tactic?  He's culpable.

Can't make them hit 3-point shots

It's his second year here.  We are something like 296th in this category.   Either we don't work on it properly or his players can't shoot.  I've seen high school players improve this skill dramatically in 3-4 weeks.   Something is wrong here, too.  Zach McRoberts' shots are off by 8-10 inches.  Like he's never shot the 3 before.  Something is very off.

Can't make our bench productive in a game situation

Then he needs a different and better group of kids on his bench or a different offensive system.  Or both.  It's Archie's team and Archie's offense.  I almost never blame kids; and I won't now.  If he's not holding kids accountable for lack of effort, he's not going to hold them accountable for anything.

So what do you want Archie to do different?  Sub differently? Switch the offense geared for the outside shot?

I want him to hold himself and his players accountable for their effort.  I want to see our offense get good shots on a consistent basis.  I want to never see McRoberts in the starting lineup again.  I want to see better shooters recruited and landed.  I want to see less dead weight on our bench (Forrester, Moore, Fitzner, Anderson don't help at all and none have really shown potential to do so against good competition.  Green's a pig.  McRoberts is useless except as a quick defensive spark from time to time.  Davis is slow and injury prone now, which makes me sad, Thompson seems the same - that's 8 of the 14 kids we can expect to play...simply don't give us anything.).  I want to see him build a team rather than recruit athletes like the above who don't understand the game.  I want to see us in transition more frequently so our players' strengths can be better utilized.  When we walk the ball up the floor, it's almost as if he wants to see if he can show the world how well he can "x and o," yet we almost never get good shots and our offensive efficiency drops dramatically unless we get Juwon in the post.    There's plenty more, but that's enough.   In a conference where teams know you; there have to be adjustments and players who can execute.  We have too few of both,  

I want this team to turn around as bad as anyone what do you do?

 

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I’m sticking to my belief that a coach gets 3 seasons. I gave Crean 3, I’ll give Archie 3. If we don’t make the NCAA’s this season, then he must next year or he should go. 
Yes if he misses in year three again that should be it. Man is this whole thing depressing.

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There are three things -- well, more than that -- that have really bothered me about this season. But I'll keep it at three. 

1. Where is our heart? We go through too many stretches where we just seem uninterested. The Nebraska game was the worst example. This is a team we should beat every time we play them in the Hall -- and we never led. We simply did not show up to play. There also were times we looked really uninterested against Purdue. How, when you're playing your No. 1 rival, can you just have stretches in which you look as if you just don't care. Though we led for a bit in the first half, the Toiletmakers' intensity was there from buzzer to buzzer. Our's wasn't. 

2. Why are we so stupid? We continue to try to force things that just aren't there. Sometimes it's Al trying to work his way between two defenders and getting stripped. Sometimes it's Rob driving to the bucket against a couple 6-8 guys when he's got no chance. Sometimes it's Justin getting too far under the bucket and still throwing up some inappropriate shot. Sometimes it's Green trying to make a pass that clearly shouldn't be made (though that might not be a worry anymore). Sometimes it's Romeo barreling toward the bucket and getting a very obvious charge call against him  ... Last night, every time we had a chance to make it a one possession game -- or even tie it -- we made a really stupid play. Smart play can make up for a lot of other deficiencies. 

3. The Marquette game. ... Where did that team go? We beat the snot out of a pretty good team with no Green, no Thompson, De'Ron playing just 15 minutes. That team looked like a solid B1G contender and possible Sweet 16 team. We reached a pretty elite level of play in the game and I'm just not understanding why we haven't been able to come close to that again. I know we've had injuries, but we played that game with pretty much the same group we have now (no Green, no Thompson, no Hunter, De'Ron very limited). 

Like the original post, I'm willing to give Archie a break, but a lot of this stuff seems to fall on coaching and seem to be things he can and should be able to correct. I just don't get it! I'm still not over the Nebraska game -- that was shameful. 

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9 minutes ago, LamarCheeks said:

There are three things -- well, more than that -- that have really bothered me about this season. But I'll keep it at three. 

1. Where is our heart? We go through too many stretches where we just seem uninterested. The Nebraska game was the worst example. This is a team we should beat every time we play them in the Hall -- and we never led. We simply did not show up to play. There also were times we looked really uninterested against Purdue. How, when you're playing your No. 1 rival, can you just have stretches in which you look as if you just don't care. Though we led for a bit in the first half, the Toiletmakers' intensity was there from buzzer to buzzer. Our's wasn't. 

2. Why are we so stupid? We continue to try to force things that just aren't there. Sometimes it's Al trying to work his way between two defenders and getting stripped. Sometimes it's Rob driving to the bucket against a couple 6-8 guys when he's got no chance. Sometimes it's Justin getting too far under the bucket and still throwing up some inappropriate shot. Sometimes it's Green trying to make a pass that clearly shouldn't be made (though that might not be a worry anymore). Sometimes it's Romeo barreling toward the bucket and getting a very obvious charge call against him  ... Last night, every time we had a chance to make it a one possession game -- or even tie it -- we made a really stupid play. Smart play can make up for a lot of other deficiencies. 

3. The Marquette game. ... Where did that team go? We beat the snot out of a pretty good team with no Green, no Thompson, De'Ron playing just 15 minutes. That team looked like a solid B1G contender and possible Sweet 16 team. We reached a pretty elite level of play in the game and I'm just not understanding why we haven't been able to come close to that again. I know we've had injuries, but we played that game with pretty much the same group we have now (no Green, no Thompson, no Hunter, De'Ron very limited). 

Like the original post, I'm willing to give Archie a break, but a lot of this stuff seems to fall on coaching and seem to be things he can and should be able to correct. I just don't get it! I'm still not over the Nebraska game -- that was shameful. 

I'm under the impression that if you are spending time coaching effort or heart than you are not working on things you should be. College coaches should never have to coach effort. That guy was McRoberts last year, but don't have anyone like that this year it seems. Just my .02 cents

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Guys. We have a walk-on who won’t shoot the ball in our starting lineup, and I’m not sure who I’d rather replace him. If that’s not a sign that you should keep your expectations in check, I don’t know what is.


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BINGO


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3 minutes ago, Walking Boot of Doom said:

Guys. We have a walk-on who won’t shoot the ball in our starting lineup, and I’m not sure who I’d rather replace him. If that’s not a sign that you should keep your expectations in check, I don’t know what is.


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This except I would gladly replace him with Al 

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Was Crean's program so bad that Archie, widely seen as a great coach by peers, is taking 2/3 years to build into something respectable? Were Crean's players and team perpetually overhyped? 

 

Or is Archie struggling to get more talented players (than what he had at Dayton) to buy in to his program? Is Archie wrong with his defense and offensive philosophies? 

 

How much is cleaning up the toxic spill that was Crean and Crean's culture and how much is Archie just hasn't figured out how to win in the Big10?

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Yes. Making the tournament is something he can sell recruits on. For example, in football Purdue went 6-7 and made a bowl game while IU went 5-7 and missed out. Which program has the momentum in the eyes of just about everyone despite the similar record of the two programs?
dont follow football so I can’t tell you but I did read IU brought in a bunch of the states top rated recruits despite going 5-7 they chose IU
Mark Gottfried made the tourney his first 4 years at NC State. Nc state fans must of been On cloud 9. Then he went 16-17, 15-17 the next 2 years.



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I understand that our roster has flaws.  It does no doubt.  But there's a bigger picture here.  We lose to teams that have more roster flaws than we do.  I understand losing to Duke.  But Nebraska at home?  Northwestern?  Indiana State?  Fort Wayne?  Rutgers?  UC Davis giving us problems?

Our roster isn't that flawed.  Our coaching is.

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7 hours ago, Bigred3588 said:

I’m sure I’m gonna get slammed by some with the whole “how many years did we waste with Crean blah blah blah,” but hang with me. Let’s look at the roster and what Archie has been working with.

Devonte Green - (Crean Recruit) He’s basically a wash. Has the occasional good performance but his decision making is terrible and hurts the team in ways that don’t show up on the stat sheet. This was one of Creans boom/bust signings and he just hasn’t gotten it together. Also injured for part of the season. Can’t put this on Archie; he didn’t recruit him and he doesn’t have much of an alternative. Plus, Devonte isn’t a pure point.

Rob Phinisee - Overall a plus and looks to be the future floor general, but he’s a freshman that probably wouldn’t be starting yet on most top teams. Still, best option at PG. Injured for part of the season. Plus for Archie on the recruiting front and I fully expect a former D1 PG to develop RP further.

Al Durham - (Crean Recruit) Low ranked combo guard that probably wouldn’t be expected to contribute much until year three. Taking that into consideration, I think he’s most improved and has been a pleasant surprise. However, still not to the point to warrant serious PT. Plus for Archie; I think his staff has done well developing Durham.

Romeo Langford - Limitless potential, but he’s currently a SG that cant really shoot. He excels at finishing but defenses are sagging off and shutting down the driving lanes and we don’t have any shooters to open them up. Also, IMO, he’s too unselfish. He still needs to work on his confidence, realize that he can take over a game, and do it. We’ve seen flashes but we’ve yet to see him really break out. Also, unknown wrist/hand injury. Some people blast Archie for the way he uses Langford, but it would be an ideal scheme for him if we had the shooters.

Damezi Anderson - Clearly not ready to contribute. He is the consummate freshman; lost on both ends of the court. Jury will probably be out for a year or two as Damezi is the kind of guy that’s recruited for development and, eventually, senior leadership. 

Justin Smith - (Crean Recruit) Still a lot of raw, untapped potential. Decent defender but needs a good deal of development on the offensive end and doesn’t make the greatest decisions. Another guy that probably shouldn’t see the kind of PT he’s getting at this point in his career. I’m still withholding judgment because i think the potential is there and I can’t knock Archie because of the limited options.

Juwan Morgan - (Crean Recruit) Juwan had his breakout season under Archie and has picked up where he left off. Love Juwan, but he was never meant to be the feature player. He’s had to play out of position quite a bit and has played his part without complaint. Gotta give him credit for that and he has done it well. It’s just too bad we haven’t had the post players to put him where he belongs. Definitely can’t knock Archie for his development or use of Juwan.

Jerome Hunter - Expected to be an important part of the rotation and hasn’t played due to injury. Not on Archie.

Race Thompson - See Jerome Hunter

De’Ron Davis - (Crean Recruit) I feel bad for Deron because I think he could’ve been a very good player, but I’m not sure he’ll ever really bounce back from the injuries. He just doesn’t have the athleticism or mobility to compete at a high level right now. As much as a like him, he hasn’t been able to contribute. This is not on Archie.

Clifton Moore - (Crean Recruit) Looking like he may work out, but he’s yet another player being thrust into games in which he probably shouldn’t see PT. He’s much like Anderson; a developmental player that’s meant to lay a foundation as an upperclassman. Hard to fault Archie as I suspect he didn’t expect Moore to see the floor much this year, and he has shown flashes of potential.

Jake Forrester - See Clifton Moore, minus the PT. Also, I believe there have been injury issues. Withholding judgment due to lack of a sample size.

Evan Fitzner - Swing and a miss. Archie clearly recognized the need for a guy that could spread the court, but Fitzner hasn’t fit the bill. His defense is downright bad and he contributes nothing on offense. Archie that the right idea, it just didn’t play out as hoped. Archie does lose points for giving Fitzner as much run as he’s had.

All that said, let’s take stock:

1 True PG (Injury), 2 combo guards (1 w/ injury), 2 shooting guards (1 w/ injury), 4 small forwards (2 w/ injuries), 4 power forwards/centers (2 w/ injuries). 

6 Crean recruits - Green, Durham, Smith, Morgan, Davis, Moore

7 Miller Recruits - Phinisee, Langford, Anderson, Hunter, Thompson, Forrester, Fitzner

So, basically, we’ve had 6 scholarship players consistently healthy and one (Langford) playing through injury: Durham, Smith, Morgan, Moore, Anderson, and Fitzner. This equates to 1 backup CG, 1 starting SG, 1 backup SG, 1 starting SF, 1 backup SF, and 2 backup PF/Centers. Not exactly the lineup we were anticipating at the start of the year, and it’s hard to make much progress in practice when it’s basically your backups vs your walk-ons. 

Then we take our 7-8 man rotation of guys, most of which shouldn’t be seeing the kind of minutes they’re getting, and march them out on the court with no leadership. We’re thin on upperclassmen’s as it is and the healthy ones are Green, Morgan, and Fitzner. Hard as it is to believe, Green probably had the personality to do it but just wasn’t capable. Morgan and Fitzner don’t have the personality and were never meant for that role.

Well said! I agree with everything you said. It's just frustrating. I speak for all of us in the fact that we are tired of waiting for IU to compete. 

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I understand that our roster has flaws.  It does no doubt.  But there's a bigger picture here.  We lose to teams that have more roster flaws than we do.  I understand losing to Duke.  But Nebraska at home?  Northwestern?  Indiana State?  Fort Wayne?  Rutgers?  UC Davis giving us problems?
Our roster isn't that flawed.  Our coaching is.
coaches have been losing to lesser talented teams a heck of lot longer then Archie being IU’s coach. Better coaches then Archie lose to less talented teams. Even coaches people consider better coaches lose to lesser talented teams in year 12.


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6 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

coaches have been losing to lesser talented teams a heck of lot longer then Archie being IU’s coach. Better coaches then Archie lose to less talented teams. Even coaches people consider better coaches lose to lesser talented teams in year 12.


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Yes, but not with this consistency or lack of effort.

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11 minutes ago, Uspshoosier said:

coaches have been losing to lesser talented teams a heck of lot longer then Archie being IU’s coach. Better coaches then Archie lose to less talented teams. Even coaches people consider better coaches lose to lesser talented teams in year 12.


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Yes, I counted on two a year with Coach Knight in the old days. Expected it with Crean. Both NW and Nebraska were toss-up games according to Vegas so not sure were losing to lesser talent but hard to tell that to certain fans. 

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I understand that our roster has flaws.  It does no doubt.  But there's a bigger picture here.  We lose to teams that have more roster flaws than we do.  I understand losing to Duke.  But Nebraska at home?  Northwestern?  Indiana State?  Fort Wayne?  Rutgers?  UC Davis giving us problems?
Our roster isn't that flawed.  Our coaching is.
I got ripped for saying this team is worse than last years team but tell me how are they better in big ten play? The team is regressing big time.

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