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mdn82

This Thread Is About Coaches

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21 minutes ago, Alford Bailey said:

I would have taken Holtmann in a heartbeat. The five year comparison will be interesting between Holtmann and Archie.

I wasn’t impressed pressed with Holtmann at Butler and he inherited a good situation. I think Holtmann could be like Bruce Weber. Do well with other coaches recruits and then be just good enough to keep his job but not do much with his own. His first recruiting class is ranked 6th in conference, behind IU (4th without Romeo). Even NW has a better class. Time will tell with him. 

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Anyone else see the last minute or two of Xavier/Fla St? Man I know Chris Mack can recruit and has done a good overall job with X but the coaching at the end was horrible. First, he has his team get overaggressive on defense and foul when there was not a need to. Then with less than 25 seconds left his guard dribbles the ball up the court with zero urgency and instead of setting Blueitt up for a shot, the big guy gets it at the top of the key and airballs a three. Just brutal to watch. The more I see some of these coaches in the tourney the less impressed I am. Adding Izzo and Skaka to that list after watching those games too. 

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Anyone else see the last minute or two of Xavier/Fla St? Man I know Chris Mack can recruit and has done a good overall job with X but the coaching at the end was horrible. First, he has his team get overaggressive on defense and foul when there was not a need to. Then with less than 25 seconds left his guard dribbles the ball up the court with zero urgency and instead of setting Blueitt up for a shot, the big guy gets it at the top of the key and airballs a three. Just brutal to watch. The more I see some of these coaches in the tourney the less impressed I am. Adding Izzo and Skaka to that list after watching those games too. 

So much more important than given credit is the quality of the player on the court. Any coach will say this. And it’s the reason why the FBI is involved in college hoops. Everyone wants the best players.

The tougher thing is Skill vs Athleticism vs Intelligence.

Getting a player or players that have all 3 will win you a lot of games. It’s also why some scouting services mess up.


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20 minutes ago, TXHoosierDaddy said:

Anyone else see the last minute or two of Xavier/Fla St? Man I know Chris Mack can recruit and has done a good overall job with X but the coaching at the end was horrible. First, he has his team get overaggressive on defense and foul when there was not a need to. Then with less than 25 seconds left his guard dribbles the ball up the court with zero urgency and instead of setting Blueitt up for a shot, the big guy gets it at the top of the key and airballs a three. Just brutal to watch. The more I see some of these coaches in the tourney the less impressed I am. Adding Izzo and Skaka to that list after watching those games too. 

Yes, throw in Mick Cronin as well.

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1 hour ago, TXHoosierDaddy said:

Anyone else see the last minute or two of Xavier/Fla St? Man I know Chris Mack can recruit and has done a good overall job with X but the coaching at the end was horrible. First, he has his team get overaggressive on defense and foul when there was not a need to. Then with less than 25 seconds left his guard dribbles the ball up the court with zero urgency and instead of setting Blueitt up for a shot, the big guy gets it at the top of the key and airballs a three. Just brutal to watch. The more I see some of these coaches in the tourney the less impressed I am. Adding Izzo and Skaka to that list after watching those games too. 

This may be nothing at all but it seems when Xavier has had a good seed under Chris Mack they flop. When they have a not so good seed they do well. In 2016 they were a 2 seed and choked against Wisconsin in the second round. This year they were a 1 seed and choked again in the second round.  In 2012 they were a 10 seed and made the sweet 16. Last year they were an 11 seed and made the Elite 8. I would be extremely frustrated if I were an Xavier fan. 

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Just now, HoosierFan1994 said:

This may be nothing at all but it seems when Xavier has had a good seed under Chris Mack they flop. When they have a not so good seed they do well. In 2016 they were a 2 seed and choked against Wisconsin in the second round. This year they were a 1 seed and choked again in the second round.  In 2012 they were a 10 seed and made the sweet 16. Last year they were an 11 seed and made the Elite 8. I would be extremely frustrated if I were an Xavier fan. 

Or just hope for a double-digit seed! 

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3 minutes ago, LamarCheeks said:

Or just hope for a double-digit seed! 

No kidding! That would just frustrate me as a fan. Take our 2002 team. Why could they have not played better during the regular season? Same for 2014 UConn or 1985 Villanova. I guess certain teams just get hot at the right time. 

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Anyone else see the last minute or two of Xavier/Fla St? Man I know Chris Mack can recruit and has done a good overall job with X but the coaching at the end was horrible. First, he has his team get overaggressive on defense and foul when there was not a need to. Then with less than 25 seconds left his guard dribbles the ball up the court with zero urgency and instead of setting Blueitt up for a shot, the big guy gets it at the top of the key and airballs a three. Just brutal to watch. The more I see some of these coaches in the tourney the less impressed I am. Adding Izzo and Skaka to that list after watching those games too. 

Agreed. There has been some bad coaching in this tournament. Izzo made some weird moves in his game. I didn’t watch the Texas game. Mack kind of gots screwed with the foul trouble, but he definitely should have done things differently.


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7 hours ago, BGleas said:

You're absolutely entitled to your opinion, and I'm not trying to respond in a way that would make you feel otherwise. I just don't think there is much context behind your opinion. Of course we're all disappointed by the number of losses this season and specifically losses to programs like ISU, Ft. Wayne and Rutgers. It sucked and they were poor performances. 

But, I would also say that if you didn't see any reason for optimism then you weren't looking very closely and were ignoring very clear signs of really good things. But, I guess it all comes down to preseason expectations and the context we all viewed the season. 

Personally, I though our roster was terrible coming into the season. We had no shooters, no playmakers, no point guard, no length in the backcourt or on the wings, etc. That's a tough recipe even without the new system/coaching staff. A new coach can't wave a magic wand that turns average at best shooters into 42% 3-pt shooters overnight. 

With all that said, there are tons of reasons to be optimistic. The defense improved considerably during the season and the players largely really bought in. The turnover issues improved from last season, that was with still very shaky guard play. We consistently got open shots on offense with a much improved half-court offense, just didn't have the shooters to make them. Not only did we not struggle against zone defenses, we excelled against many of them. Numerous times we got good looks out of timeouts. Morgan blossomed into a bonafide big ten star if he sticks around. Justin Smith looks like a legit player. We laid the blueprint for defending Purdue, and Archie did a great job with game-plan/strategy in several other games. 

We were a consistent perimeter scorer/shooter away from beating Duke, Purdue, MSU and OSU. Archie has locked up recruits from in-state and even if we don't land him, he did wonders getting IU this close with Langford. Also with recruiting, there now seems to be a plan and strategy for addressing areas of need and system, not just handing offers out like candy. 

Again, you're certainly welcome to you opinion and I appreciate your perspective, it just reads to me that you're going "bad losses, Holtman did good, we stink." There's many more layers and context to it than that. My takeaway from this season is that I'm convinced Archie knows basketball and can coach, now it's just about recruiting and landing the right players which hopefully he can. 

 

 

I agree with 99% of this.  You're right, I believe these are the differences between you and I.

 

The defense definitely improved without Crean.  It had to.  I'm glad it did.  We improved against the zone.  It had to.  I'm glad it did.

 

Our half court offense improved.  I'm glad it did.  Morgan improved.  I'm glad he did.  It happens to somebody every year.

 

Archie has recruited in-state.  I couldn't care less.  I don't care if our player is from Indiana or Uranus.  It makes no difference to me.  We don't oversign anymore!  I don't care.  This makes no difference to me.

 

You're right, I care about results.  Not the minutiae above.  You see, to me it's as though some people find things that they didn't like about Crean and are celebrating because those small things have changed.  I care about the black and white.  The numbers.  The results.

 

Which opinion is more short sighted?  That's the 1% I disagree with you about.  We can talk small changes that make people smile or we can talk about embarrassing losses and poor results.  You are what your stats say you are.  

 

Thanks for the discussion.

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I agree with 99% of this.  You're right, I believe these are the differences between you and I.
 
The defense definitely improved without Crean.  It had to.  I'm glad it did.  We improved against the zone.  It had to.  I'm glad it did.
 
Our half court offense improved.  I'm glad it did.  Morgan improved.  I'm glad he did.  It happens to somebody every year.
 
Archie has recruited in-state.  I couldn't care less.  I don't care if our player is from Indiana or Uranus.  It makes no difference to me.  We don't oversign anymore!  I don't care.  This makes no difference to me.
 
You're right, I care about results.  Not the minutiae above.  You see, to me it's as though some people find things that they didn't like about Crean and are celebrating because those small things have changed.  I care about the black and white.  The numbers.  The results.
 
Which opinion is more short sighted?  That's the 1% I disagree with you about.  We can talk small changes that make people smile or we can talk about embarrassing losses and poor results.  You are what your stats say you are.  
 
Thanks for the discussion.

As someone that only cares about black and white results, how does one get the black and white results without improving the little things? How do you feel we get there? Is it as simple as the wrong hire with Archie that put us in this position for this last year? If the team he didn’t construct was his problem who turns that team into a contending team? I personally would love hear your perspective on what Archie could do better to have had a contending team this last year.


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38 minutes ago, Josh said:

 

I agree with 99% of this.  You're right, I believe these are the differences between you and I.

 

The defense definitely improved without Crean.  It had to.  I'm glad it did.  We improved against the zone.  It had to.  I'm glad it did.

 

Our half court offense improved.  I'm glad it did.  Morgan improved.  I'm glad he did.  It happens to somebody every year.

 

Archie has recruited in-state.  I couldn't care less.  I don't care if our player is from Indiana or Uranus.  It makes no difference to me.  We don't oversign anymore!  I don't care.  This makes no difference to me.

 

You're right, I care about results.  Not the minutiae above.  You see, to me it's as though some people find things that they didn't like about Crean and are celebrating because those small things have changed.  I care about the black and white.  The numbers.  The results.

 

Which opinion is more short sighted?  That's the 1% I disagree with you about.  We can talk small changes that make people smile or we can talk about embarrassing losses and poor results.  You are what your stats say you are.  

 

Thanks for the discussion.

It’s those small changes that will hopefully take us to a final four and national title. Beating Ft Wayne in year 1 doesn’t mean squat. It’s these “small” things (huge deal to me FYI) that show we have a competent coach, not just a salesmen. It’s the small things that will make is a much better program moving forward.

We need to recruit the state bc we are not a national program. We are not Duke, UK, UNC. We have to have a pipeline and the state of Indiana is one of the best in the country. If we can’t recruit our own state, then we will never be elite again, simple as that.

Historically the state of Indiana has been our life blood. When we won titles the core of the roster was made up of kids from Indiana, Ohio, Illinois. We don’t need to go to California to get players. This is true in football for elite programs whose states produce quality talent. Texas must recruit its state to be good, Bama locks down its own borders, USC, UCLA, Stanford together do a hell of a job keeping their elite talent in state yearly.

that 1% is a big deal imo. 

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I agree with 99% of this.  You're right, I believe these are the differences between you and I.
 
The defense definitely improved without Crean.  It had to.  I'm glad it did.  We improved against the zone.  It had to.  I'm glad it did.
 
Our half court offense improved.  I'm glad it did.  Morgan improved.  I'm glad he did.  It happens to somebody every year.
 
Archie has recruited in-state.  I couldn't care less.  I don't care if our player is from Indiana or Uranus.  It makes no difference to me.  We don't oversign anymore!  I don't care.  This makes no difference to me.
 
You're right, I care about results.  Not the minutiae above.  You see, to me it's as though some people find things that they didn't like about Crean and are celebrating because those small things have changed.  I care about the black and white.  The numbers.  The results.
 
Which opinion is more short sighted?  That's the 1% I disagree with you about.  We can talk small changes that make people smile or we can talk about embarrassing losses and poor results.  You are what your stats say you are.  
 
Thanks for the discussion.

This is pretty much where I am too. However, year 1 with Creans team isn't really fair. SADLY, and I'm impatient too, but a new coach needs 3 years to show what he can do. It used to be 4 or 5 years, but now with the best players in the country being Freshman, a coach can be judged sooner.

I see all the things everyone else did in year 1. Improvements in most ways. The excuses will be gone after 2 more seasons, then we will see.

I'm optimistic but less than fully confident.


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On 3/18/2018 at 10:02 PM, Feathery said:

I wasn’t impressed pressed with Holtmann at Butler and he inherited a good situation. I think Holtmann could be like Bruce Weber. Do well with other coaches recruits and then be just good enough to keep his job but not do much with his own. His first recruiting class is ranked 6th in conference, behind IU (4th without Romeo). Even NW has a better class. Time will tell with him. 

I have family in Ohio so I follow their team closely. Holtmann inherited a Butler team that went 14-17 and went 23-11 where they eventually lost in the second round(he only received the HC job in October). Two seasons later he gave a butler another second round and sweet sixteen finish.

He took over a OSU program that was taking quickly sinking and brought it back up quickly. He finished 6th in recruiting but only received the job in June so I think it is fair to cut him some slack.

People are always going to compare Archie and Holtmann because of the timing of their hires, but I do not think you can make any sweeping judgments until 3 or 4 years have passed.

Edited by QualityLoss

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