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mdn82

This Thread Is About Coaches

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It’s funny to me, reading this stuff. I was (I believe) the first to question the Crean hire. I’m an IU grad from Milwaukee Wisconsin. My father (IU fan) and I had intimate knowledge of Marquette University and Tom Crean. I remember the day his hiring was announced. We were at home watching the news and we both immediately looked at each other and said, in unison, “No Way”. We both knew well, the shortcomings you came to complain about in year 6. One of my first posts on this site was later that year in a game thread. I said that I thought the hire was less than ideal for an Indiana school, with such a knowledgeable fan base. That you would probably not be happy with him given what I’d seen.

Post summary:

 

“This is how he plays defense, it doesn’t just look bad because of the players, it is bad fundamentally and I don’t think IU purists will ever accept it”.

 

“I didn’t say he was a bad coach, I said he is not an X’s and O’s coach with a playbook and a structured offense, which is a huge departure from what Indiana has been in the past. It’s not lack of talent to run the offense, it’s that there is no offense. The lack of talent is simply masking it. The largest complaint for MU fans is that it was very fly by the seat of your pants.”

 

Unfortunately, you had all heard “It’s Indiana”, and were over the moon. I was bashed quite relentlessly and I just was trying to give a heads up. I didn’t post again until 2013, at which time, I was sure to give Crean my full support. So anyway, yeah it got touchy when anyone mentioned negative things about coach.

 

 

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6 hours ago, cappymo14 said:

It’s funny to me, reading this stuff. I was (I believe) the first to question the Crean hire. I’m an IU grad from Milwaukee Wisconsin. My father (IU fan) and I had intimate knowledge of Marquette University and Tom Crean. I remember the day his hiring was announced. We were at home watching the news and we both immediately looked at each other and said, in unison, “No Way”. We both knew well, the shortcomings you came to complain about in year 6. One of my first posts on this site was later that year in a game thread. I said that I thought the hire was less than ideal for an Indiana school, with such a knowledgeable fan base. That you would probably not be happy with him given what I’d seen.

Post summary:

 

“This is how he plays defense, it doesn’t just look bad because of the players, it is bad fundamentally and I don’t think IU purists will ever accept it”.

 

“I didn’t say he was a bad coach, I said he is not an X’s and O’s coach with a playbook and a structured offense, which is a huge departure from what Indiana has been in the past. It’s not lack of talent to run the offense, it’s that there is no offense. The lack of talent is simply masking it. The largest complaint for MU fans is that it was very fly by the seat of your pants.”

 

Unfortunately, you had all heard “It’s Indiana”, and were over the moon. I was bashed quite relentlessly and I just was trying to give a heads up. I didn’t post again until 2013, at which time, I was sure to give Crean my full support. So anyway, yeah it got touchy when anyone mentioned negative things about coach.

 

 

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I’m there with you on that, having ties to Marquette. I wasn’t happy with the hire but gave Crean a chance. This time around I’m being more critical in what I’m looking for. Does the system work both offensively and defensively. That’s the biggest thing to me. I’ve seen huge defensive improvement and a lot of missed shots that were open looks. This gives me hope for Archie, but I need a larger sample size, with the type of player he wants before I can say to myself this is the guy who will be here for 20+ years. 

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I’m there with you on that, having ties to Marquette. I wasn’t happy with the hire but gave Crean a chance. This time around I’m being more critical in what I’m looking for. Does the system work both offensively and defensively. That’s the biggest thing to me. I’ve seen huge defensive improvement and a lot of missed shots that were open looks. This gives me hope for Archie, but I need a larger sample size, with the type of player he wants before I can say to myself this is the guy who will be here for 20+ years. 

Yeah, the connection I had to Marquette was not just my proximity but also that my Grandfather and Aunt both were Marquette grads. My Aunt was inducted into the Marquette hall of fame in 2010 for basketball and volleyball. They are both rabid hoops fans and so, through them, I watched plenty of Marquette basketball. I will say that I didn’t automatically hate the hire given our situation. To best describe what I felt at the time of the announcement was closer to a confounded surprise. I didn’t come on here and immediately blow the guy up, I was as complimentary of the man as I could be. It went down as I said, my first ever post stating that I didn’t think fans would like Tom at a school with such a knowledgeable fan base, and the basketball tradition of IU. It was not well received. In the meantime, my Aunt would message me twice a year, asking “Roses still blooming in Bloomington?” Her way of asking if we had yet figured it out.

 

 

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I think this line of thinking is premature because the simple fact is the system the kids who played this season were used to and recruited to was vastly different than the one they were asked to play in.  They got exposed as having no idea what their defense was supposed to look like early on; and one of your examples was their first game trying; AND their first game having no offensive leader.
IU didn't get run off the floor by Rutgers.  Come on, now.   
I'll say this.  If Archie didn't learn by watching how teams were able to defend Indiana and how teams are playing against the pack line defense now?   He's got a problem.   I thought he slowed tempo too much.   I think he could have used more ball pressure and full court pressure to generate more offense.  
I'm giving him another year or two before I truly formulate a judgement on whether or not I think he's "the guy," and I sure as heck won't hold his first game against him.   I saw plenty of progress this season, especially from a defensive numbers and ball security perspective.


Yes, our players were playing in a new system. Same as Ohio State's players. Same as Butler's players. Same as many other teams. Ours didn't find any success. What's the difference there?

I'm not so upset that they lost their first game to far inferior talent. It's the blowout fashion in which they did. Then the blowout loss to Fort Wayne. And yes, Rutgers beat us pretty convincingly in the Big Ten tourney. All of these were really embarrassing.

Looking at the season, there is plenty of reason to be disappointed. I really can't find one for optimism. Perhaps I should be telling the optimistic ones that it's way too early for their excitement? Because imo, I have seen nothing optimistic except that Archie is Not Crean.

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1 minute ago, Josh said:

 


Yes, our players were playing in a new system. Same as Ohio State's players. Same as Butler's players. Same as many other teams. Ours didn't find any success. What's the difference there?

I'm not so upset that they lost their first game to far inferior talent. It's the blowout fashion in which they did. Then the blowout loss to Fort Wayne. And yes, Rutgers beat us pretty convincingly in the Big Ten tourney. All of these were really embarrassing.

Looking at the season, there is plenty of reason to be disappointed. I really can't find one for optimism. Perhaps I should be telling the optimistic ones that it's way too early for their excitement? Because imo, I have seen nothing optimistic except that Archie is Not Crean.

 

Ohio State players ran the same system with Matta and Holtmann 

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Yes, our players were playing in a new system. Same as Ohio State's players. Same as Butler's players. Same as many other teams. Ours didn't find any success. What's the difference there?

I'm not so upset that they lost their first game to far inferior talent. It's the blowout fashion in which they did. Then the blowout loss to Fort Wayne. And yes, Rutgers beat us pretty convincingly in the Big Ten tourney. All of these were really embarrassing.

Looking at the season, there is plenty of reason to be disappointed. I really can't find one for optimism. Perhaps I should be telling the optimistic ones that it's way too early for their excitement? Because imo, I have seen nothing optimistic except that Archie is Not Crean.

You don’t find the defensive improvement over the course of the season a bright spot and a reason to be optimistic?


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15 minutes ago, Josh said:

 


Yes, our players were playing in a new system. Same as Ohio State's players. Same as Butler's players. Same as many other teams. Ours didn't find any success. What's the difference there?

I'm not so upset that they lost their first game to far inferior talent. It's the blowout fashion in which they did. Then the blowout loss to Fort Wayne. And yes, Rutgers beat us pretty convincingly in the Big Ten tourney. All of these were really embarrassing.

Looking at the season, there is plenty of reason to be disappointed. I really can't find one for optimism. Perhaps I should be telling the optimistic ones that it's way too early for their excitement? Because imo, I have seen nothing optimistic except that Archie is Not Crean.

 

He finished above .500 without any three point shooters a 6 foot 7 center and oh yeah no PG. 

The last time we had that was probably Creans first year and he set the record for fewest wins. 

Anybody who thinks the pro column for Archie is smaller than the con column probably just suffers from anhedonia

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You don’t find the defensive improvement over the course of the season a bright spot and a reason to be optimistic?


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Yes. It was a bright spot. The results of the games were a massive dark spot.

It's not all doom and gloom, but I'm very disappointed that we had so many embarrassing losses.

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22 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

He finished above .500 without any three point shooters a 6 foot 7 center and oh yeah no PG. 

The last time we had that was probably Creans first year and he set the record for fewest wins. 

Anybody who thinks the pro column for Archie is smaller than the con column probably just suffers from anhedonia

I just learned a new word. Thanks! 

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He finished above .500 without any three point shooters a 6 foot 7 center and oh yeah no PG. 
The last time we had that was probably Creans first year and he set the record for fewest wins. 
Anybody who thinks the pro column for Archie is smaller than the con column probably just suffers from anhedonia


Anhedonia. I had to look that one up (I'm in sales, not medical lol)

Maybe so. I'd love to find a reason to think we should be on the level we should be next year. I don't see one though.

Prove me wrong Archie. Please prove me wrong.

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1 minute ago, Josh said:

 


Anhedonia. I had to look that one up (I'm in sales, not medical lol)

Maybe so. I'd love to find a reason to think we should be on the level we should be next year. I don't see one though.

Prove me wrong Archie. Please prove me wrong.

 

Perhaps you just have unrealistic expectations to expect a coach to walk in and makes us elite overnight

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Perhaps you just have unrealistic expectations to expect a coach to walk in and makes us elite overnight


That's not my expectation. My expectation is to beat Fort Wayne. Or at least not get run off our own court by them.

My expectation is to be able to beat the 14 seed in the conference tournament. Certainly not to lose like we did.

Is that too much to ask? That we can beat inferior teams?

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2 minutes ago, Josh said:

 


That's not my expectation. My expectation is to beat Fort Wayne. Or at least not get run off our own court by them.

My expectation is to be able to beat the 14 seed in the conference tournament. Certainly not to lose like we did.

Is that too much to ask? That we can beat inferior teams?

 

We had a deeply flawed roster. Those losses could happen under any coach if those losses happen after Archie has his players I will agree with you. But right now it's too soon

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6 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

Perhaps you just have unrealistic expectations to expect a coach to walk in and makes us elite overnight

He never said elite.  I personally didn't expect elite, but I expected to beat IPFW and Rutgers (I can somewhat understand ISU being the first game, but I still expected a W there); that's not elite, that just not losing to, or getting demolished by, lesser teams.  That's not unrealistic either.

 

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We had a deeply flawed roster. Those losses could happen under any coach if those losses happen after Archie has his players I will agree with you. But right now it's too soon


Ok. And I think it's too soon to say he's done a great job. We can only grade what we've seen. I didn't see a passing grade.

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2 minutes ago, Josh said:

 


Ok. And I think it's too soon to say he's done a great job. We can only grade what we've seen. I didn't see a passing grade.

 

Next year is big. He will have five players coming in who he recruited and the returning players will have had a year in his system.

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4 minutes ago, Josh said:

 


Ok. And I think it's too soon to say he's done a great job. We can only grade what we've seen. I didn't see a passing grade.

 

If you expected to see more out of a team without a PG, no big man that fit the system and no three point shooting your expectations were unrealistic. That doesn't mean Archie did a bad job. 

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If you expected to see more out of a team without a PG, no big man that fit the system and no three point shooting your expectations were unrealistic. That doesn't mean Archie did a bad job. 

 

It's unrealistic to say we shouldn't have been run off our own court by Indiana State and Fort Wayne? It's unrealistic to say we shouldn't have been beaten like we were against the worst seed in the conference tournament?

 

Lol. I don't think that's unrealistic at all.

 

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Just now, Josh said:

 


It's unrealistic to say we shouldn't have been run off our own court by Indiana State and Firt Wayne? It's unrealistic to say we shouldn't have been beaten like we were against the worst seed in the conference tournament?

Lol. I don't think that's unrealistic at all.

 

It's unrealistic to think a deeply flawed team isn't going to have wtf losses

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Ok. And I think it's too soon to say he's done a great job. We can only grade what we've seen. I didn't see a passing grade.

There isn’t a right or wrong answer here. People’s opinion are going to differ. Most analysts praised him for the job he did with a limited roster (again no right or wrong answer if you think it was limited or not). A couple even said if it wasn’t for Holtman they would of voted him coach of the year in the B1G. If u expected more I have no problem with that just like I have no problem with someone who didn’t have higher expectations


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